I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
My appreciation for the Belles 250i Integrated has as much to do with its outstanding sonics as it does, as such things develop over time, with its owner David Belles. There is little, make that zero, information available on this integrated anywhere to be had; even the far reaching and intrusive interweb fails to produce so much as sales brochure reproduction. Emails sent to Power Modules, his current company, have also failed to produce a reply. C’est la vie.
During my wayward youth I, like so many others, sought after the most popular brands of the era -Marantz, Sansui, Pioneer, etc. In fact, until I stumbled upon Audiogon as I was internetting to replace a stereo receiver I was still in possession of one of those brands. When I first moved into this house in 1994 my first addition to my “collection” was a pair of Klipsch CF 3’s. Apart from the Klipsch and to some extent Marantz, there was no name behind the brand. There was Saul of course, and there was Paul. They had stories. There was nothing backing up the Pioneers, the Sansui’s, the Nakamichis, the most popular, consumer commercial brands back in the day.
Not long after buying my first pair of Thiel - CS2.2 - I began reading about Jim Thiel. Nothing I had previously owned came close to producing the sound I was hearing and my curiosity grew. Unlike Belles, there is a TON of information regarding Jim Thiel’s history. I became attached. Personally. I believe that I’ve read everything there is available to read about Thiel the man, and Thiel the company. As I related to Tom Thiel during our all too brief personal introduction last week as he picked up my CS 2.4’s, there are only two brands of loudspeakers that have delivered an “aha!” moment to my ears, Thiel and Magnepan. Suffice it to say the the CS3.5’s delivered this atomically.
Just the construction of the Belles 250i alone is reason enough to appreciate it. The power supply is encased in a separate enclosure attached to the amp itself by an umbilical cord. Inside that box is a pretty damn big toroidal transformer. My uneducated assumption reasons that this was designed to reduce noise. I could be wrong - after all, I’ve previously stated that I don’t know a mosfet from a misfit, but I know what I like. (The Belles long form name is Belles 250i Mosfet Integrated Hybrid.)
I am also assuming that the output rating for this may be 125 W into 8 ohms, 250 W into 4 ohms. (Given the absence of any officially disclaimed information.) It seems right to me. The B. A. T. Integrated, as well as the Pass Labs X150.5 amplifier I previously owned were rated slightly higher @ 150 W 8 ohms, 300 W into 4 ohms. I’ve never had any amplification higher than those - and I don’t believe I will never have the need for it.
The Belles is closer sonically to the Pass than I can say it is for the B. A. T. I have always operated within the constrictions of my personal financial weather map. Sometimes it’s sunny and seventy degrees, sometimes it’s not. When the weather develops into the nasty and cold the first thing to suffer is my audio equipment. Fortunately equipment is merely a possession that can be substituted or eventually replaced. With even better stuff!
At this moment I have a pretty darn good cheap-seats setup. A quick, unscientific or mathematically precise summation lands this at around…$4K give or take. Not too shabby.
Thank You for sharing your Audio journey. There are not too many Audiophiles (out there) enjoying B.A.T. / Thiel combo. You were the 1st here. B.A.T. has a strong Research and Development (R&D) department. The company is quite a machine in that regard with REX3 series available now. I can remember the original REX.
I grew up on the Mosfet sound. It is quite musically rewarding and wonderful. My AYRE gear touches on this design plus a Tubed flavor. Give credit to the Diamond Circuit. Pretty amazing in the Twenty Series Integrated Amp and corresponding Separates. Yes, being a frugal and smart shopper can yield an incredible system for pennies on the dollar. I concur in this approach to system building.
Good to read that the Belles is a hit in your room and system.
I don’t see any specs for the Loki EQ on the Schiit site. The 03a needs around 6dB at 30Hz with a curve diminishing to zero boost at around 250Hz. Any EQ that does that is suitable.
I’d like to add that the 03a is a fairly mature Thiel offering. The felt solution for diffraction control was quite effective, and the drivers and XO components were a league up from the original 03. The cabinet (if I remember correctly) was made of 1-1/8" industrial particle board as were its CS3 and CS3.5 successors. You could help my memory by looking at the woofer. I don’t remember whether the 01 (a,b,c) woofer was used in the 03a. It had a steel basket which could be tested with a magnet at the mounting lip.
I presently have no records on the 03 / 03a, but would like to document them via driver names/models and XO circuitry. I could derive a schematic from a good photograph of the crossover. I understand if this ask is beyond your interest. But, on the other hand, if you are game, so am I.
As a further note, the 03/03a will be retrofittable with the next generation CS3.5 drivers (beyond 3.6 quality) and internal upgrades as well as an upgraded EQ.
I don't remember whether it was the 03 or 03a that Harry Pearson (himself!) reviewed and announced that Jim Thiel was an upcoming bright star to be followed. Whichever model it was - that's when demand for the the models 3 and 4 (coherent sources) skyrocketed.
Well - the Virginia trip grew some legs. Beyond my niece's wedding and the Bill Thalmann / Music Technology visit, we added two pairs of vintage Thiel speakers to our stable from Long Island. Oblgny's 2.4s augment a pair borrowed from audiojan to allow mix and match upgrade comparisons. Oblgny's complaint about the 2.4s revolves around the power (listening volume) required for them to come to life. My only observation is that the listening space is essentially a whole house due to large openings at the listening room side and rear, plus an open stairway to the second floor. The design brief for the model 2 is geared toward smaller, more intimate spaces. One of these years, I see oblgny being happy with Renaissance CS3.5s, which assume a larger listening volume.
A couple of towns down the road, I picked up the 7.2s from a retiring and downsizing electrical engineer. His substantial system was already dismantled, but looked to have been quite upscale. We called his pair CS7.1s, as they were upgraded CS7s, retaining their concrete baffles and steel grille frames. These baffles are not cracked, as many have become from shrinkage. The drivers are all fully Thiel, made in-house. I look forward to documenting them and eventually coaxing them into even higher performance.
A late exit (4:30) from Locust Valley turned into 3.5 hours to circumnavigate 45 miles around NYC and arrive Berryville, Virginia around 1:AM. No problems.
My trip to Bill Thalmann's Music Technology in Springfield (south DC) resulted in 3 productive hours comparing listening notes and agreeing on a strategy for the EQ. To allow for a larger power transformer and generous circuit layout, we are moving the powersupply to its own chassis, with enough power for two EQs in case of fully balanced configuration. Jim Williams' upgrade is already a substantial improvement over Jim Thiel''s original design due to quieter transistors and regulating the power supply. Bill T. and Jim W both judged Jim T's design as 'elegant' with plenty of room for improvement. I'm excited. Within a week or two, I'll be ordering caps and resistors for Bill's new treatment. For the record, we're seeking a top-drawer PC board designer for this project.
We listened through Bill's upgrade of my original Classé DR6 which is now absolutely glorious. The DR9s have been reworked but still await new parts.
I also left my second Adcom GFA555 for Bill's full treatment. I'm also seeking to buy an OPPO 105 (not necessarily D) player for Bill's full-fledged upgrade. He completely replaces the analog audio section making the 'D' treatment redundant. Please feel free to guide me to a low-hours player for me to send to Bill.
I also report an opportunity for the right person. Bill seeks an apprentice to learn his considerable craft. Any leads can be sent to me for further briefing. There is more work than his shop can handle, and it's not easy to find the right candidate for an additional Music Technologist.
Monday evening's drive landed me home in New Hampshire around 2:AM
Outstanding! What a trip!? Good to read that you are back on NH home soil.
An incredible collection of Audio toys for your Hot Rod testing. Another incredible factor is Bill awaiting parts for the Classe’ amps. Very impressive.
Watch eBay or U.S. Audiomart for an Oppo player. They are plentiful!
Thank you for confirming that Bill still offers those upgrades. I hope to see his Operation someday before retirement. No doubt that he enjoys a thriving Audio shop. Can you comment on his Listening room or test bench gear ?
oblgny - on the bright side, you have virtually no standing wave problems. Also, you can pressurize the propagation space with a subwoofer (or two) to reduce main driver excursions for cleaner sound. Or sliding doors to wall off that large (dining) alcove would create a better defined sonic launch end. The room is generally highly under appreciated re its sonic contribution. I suggest focusing your efforts there rather than seeking solutions from audio equipment.
The record-making process assumes 'normalcy' for playback. Normal dimensions, symmetry, etc. Room EQ Wizzard, FuzzMeasure, etc. can give you some clues re problems and solutions efficacy. See where that takes you.
jafant - I’m sorry I couldn’t really ’tour’ his capabilities. I took a few hours of his time for our focused business. His bench seemed to have a pretty big bank of gear: oscilloscope, signal generator, etc. I don’t know whether he has an audio analyzer, etc. but he seems to use tech along with his ears, instincts and accumulated experience. .
The entire space is concrete floor / concrete block / steel ceiling at about 16’ high at 2500 square foot rectangle (40x60?) with about 1/3 having an 8’-9’ mezzanine ceiling covering the playback and customer interface areas. The playback area’s front wall behind the speakers is an overhead garage door. The left wall is solid (drywall on studs) with display shelves of equipment for sale, including various clasic speakers. Ditto the back wall. The right side is open to the sales area which adds about 10-12’. No treatment beyond a carpet.(?) Ceiling is plywood above 16" 2x12 joists parallel to the front wall. Area size is 16’ wide by about 18’ long (plus the openings to adjacent areas.) For all its industrial simplicity and eccentricity, it sounds quite neutral and without problems. We could readily and easily distinguish between EQ iterations in mono or stereo. Sounds like Bill has a well-developed home hi fi system, but this set-up is pretty minimal.
We used the hot-rotted Classe DR6 preamp which sounded clean and pristine. His power amp is a pro piece I didn’t recognize and therefore don’t remember. He had thoroughly hot-rodded it. Tight, clean, broadband. wow. Disc player was an OPPO 105 for which he offers a thorough ($2400) audiophile upgrade. I want one. Turntable is an Oracle Delphi VI - which I covet. We listened exclusively to / through Thiel CS3.5 to handle the EQd bass. I had moved the crossovers into the cabinet bottoms, but otherwise they are stock. UPS had shattered the grille frames which are part of the anti-diffraction scheme, but we survived anyhow. Next visit I’ll take upgraded frames with me. I didn’t notice what cabling was used, but it looked audiophile.
The only real new ground we covered was to cross-check our interpretations of the different iterations of the 3.5 EQ, which I would describe as identical between us. We’re on the same page. We’re farther down the path toward various levels of much cleaner, firmer, clearer sound from the EQ. Granted that higher performance costs more. But for those who love the sealed bass and true to 20Hz extension, this EQ is a fine way to get it while keeping the enclosure quite compact, stiff and inexpensive. I think you know that I am more enamored with this sealed / EQd bass solution than the baked in compromises of reflex bass.
I have been searching for a pair of CS2.4s (or 2.7) within a reasonable distance from Atlanta but nothing—but they seem to be scattered about the northeast and the left coast.
Thank you for the description of Bill’ s Audio operation. I can only imagine his Home stereo system. No doubt that he has golden ears. After all he was the Lead technician at Conrad Johnson for a number of years.
I see Mr Rob Gillum in the same professional light.
30 years and counting, We are very fortunate to have these Men in our hobby.
The Panel’s 3.5 fans and owners will welcome any XO upgrades. EQ improvement as well. Glad that you guys enjoyed fellowship and fruitful travels. Nothing like exploration of Audio shops away from your local haunts.
I have you at the Top of my search list. Give me an idea of how far you are willing to travel? I can fully recommend a road trip to pick up a sweet pair of Thiel speakers. I did without hesitation.
As time went on, the unit count of Thiel models decreased and the export percentage increased. I can only speculate as to causes. The 2.4 only sold about 2300 pair, let's guess half of them in the USA. And their owners tend to love and hold them. Be watchful and quick on the trigger.
jafant - at Bill's shop, he must be able to drive all kinds of loads with both unbalanced and balanced inputs. CJ experimented wide and long about adding balanced operation and chose to not go there. The unbalanced circuit simplicity won the musicality race even though balanced is 6dB quieter. True balanced requires twice the part count, and fudged balanced often disappoints. My experience reflects his observations. RCA cables often perform better than their XLR counterparts, unless there are pro conditions such as long runs, high EMF environments, lighting interference, etc. In livingroom hi fi we often have very manageable environments where single-ended RCA outperforms balanced XLR.
On my personal front, Bill is removing the input balancing circuitry from my Classé DR9s. It is op-amp based and of lower quality than the actual single-ended unbalanced input stage. We'll use the extra space for larger, better caps and a cleaner layout for what Bill promises to be decisively better results.
Regarding the 3.5 equalizer, the top version will actually have two complete circuit boards with one running positive and the other inverted, requiring an EQ for each channel - powered by an outboard power supply big enough to power both channels. That fully balanced performance will be better than unbalanced RCA, but at double the component count and cost. In the case of a real balanced preamp and poweramp (such as Benchmark), the true-balanced EQ will maintain balanced topology throughout.
You never cease to amaze me. Thank you for the history lesson on CJ. Their offerings are very fine in the RCA input/output tradition. I have never been disappointed in any demo. I can attest to the entry level models and top of the line models equally. Further, the CAV 45 is a very sweet integrated amp. While not the last word in a Powerhouse, it is musical and simple as hell.
Glad you are having fun with revamping the 3.5 Eq and speaker. Many will benefit when the upgrade is released. Same for fans and owners of the 2.2 and 2.4 models. Good fortune are entow. And yes, the 2.4 is plentiful in the secondary market place. Quick decision and timing are important in landing a pair.
I am already excited about your next home, room and stereo system. Although I am certain that every detail is mapped out. It is good to have you back here on the thread.
Yes, separate power supplies would be better. In all design undertakings a significant piece of the art is cost-effectiveness. Bill and I discussed various solutions and agreed that a more robust supply with various isolation techniques increases the advantages to both channels more so than the isolation effects of two separate supplies per se. Of course, that's considering cost. Since the supply will be separate, two could be purchased and assigned to separate channels. One of these days you could report on the relative value of such a choice.
More generally, my goal is to find the next plateau on the value curve, optimized at higher level(s) of performance that stock Thiel. Those levels / plateaus will settle over time. I already know that Jim Williams' first level upgrade, coupled with simply moving the stock crossover from behind the woofer to the cabinet bottom - are transformative. That will not be a product. The first product will use the same Vifa woofer and its alignment, but a different (post 3.6) midrange and tweeter with better XO components.
jafant - yes, my workhorse with outside collaborators is based on the 02. We invent and update ideas and can send them coast to coast at reasonable cost and risk. The fruit of these experiments will hopefully take some marketable form, probably in a very limited edition, defined by the fact that a phase coherent stand-mount monitor can be subverted so many ways. Ear height is absolutely important. Floor standing greatly solves that. Bass fundamentals are quite important. Larger floor cabinets help that. Etc. But, yes, there will be something. There is something now and it's pretty exciting compared to history and to what else is out there.
Far and away the biggest deal is developing some team that wants to take what we're learning into the future. In my mid seventies, that's not me. When we have actual goods to show, we'll start pulling together a company.
jafant - by post 3.6 product I meant that the drivers will use all of the 3.6 technologies plus some additional ones. I'm not presently addressing any products newer than the discrete-driver ones. Those drivers are geriatric and mostly obsolete. Replacements and enhancements will keep those products in use for decades to come. The 2.4 is an exception because it landed in my lap, lots of love there, and saying no is hard for me.
Thank you for the update. Good to read that your effort and hard work is developing into a real product. Floor stander vs. Monitor is a tough choice indeed.
I know you guys will invent the best of both designs, making it your own creation.
The buyer’s market is there for either One. Regarding the CS 2.4 , once you have had a taste, it is very difficult to say No. I am glad that you found your pair. I still have your 02 request at the Top of list equally. Maybe a sweet “Barn find@ will land on Us.
Hi all. I was looking into upgrading my crossover. I opened up one of my speakers #294. And found this inside. Not sure how to proceed, I was just going to upgrade 3 caps in the tweeter/mid section, but it looks like there are several cap upgrade, bypasses and the coils do not look factory either. The woofer board has the same coils and some mods also. I could try to rebuild these or possibly just build new ones.
Hi Tom, I emailed the pics. There is a lot of stuff done to these. This is speaker serial #294 it seems like some caps were replaced, some bypasses were added and the coils are "Acousta Coils", I am not sure these are even the factory boards
Jafant, the previous owner did not mention any modding. It looks like one resistors leads is touching the larger coil in the high mid crossover in speaker 294, I feel like I should be able to notice it, music sounds very even between both speakers, I am wondering if I should do some frequency sweeps with them and record how the are performing. I would like to hear another set of 2.4s so I could compare them. Part of me feels like selling them; I don’t how much would someone pay for them knowing they are modded. They do sound very nice compared to my cs1.6, and have already won me over with the full sound and extra bass. I am wondering if some of the sweetness and extension I noticed in the 1.6 was due these 2.4 being modded or the perhaps it just how the different drivers sound. I was already planning to do something like the SE upgrades so part of me wants to just build new crossovers, I am a novice at soldering so these will be a challenge, not sure if the coils can be pulled off since they look glued or if many of the other parts are in good enough shape to reuse, it seems like it could get pricey
halifax - I understand your unease about the visually sloppy work. However, the boards look totally right to me. Those are classic Thiel brands and layout. Later 2.4s went to China on PC boards, and some had poorly made coils. I like the sound of the Thiel boards better than FSC/Chinese.
Acousta-coil was Thiel’s long-term supplier. In fact I introduced aerospace (6-9s) wire to them for the 03 in 1978 and Acousta-Coil and StraightWire built their businesses around us and that wire. The purity is as good as it gets, although over the years the top wire declined to 4-9s); the winding aspect ratio is correct as is the oven-baked binding varnish.
Those yellow Elpac caps were developed in 1988 for the CS5 and remained in all Thiel products until that original German film was gone.We bought and used over 100,000 of those tin foil and styrene film 1uF caps. Aeon is Solen’s Asian manufactured line. Thiel kept French Solens’ in its upper end and used the Aeon clones in the lower models. Those resistors are non-inductives that Jim developed around 1983 for the CS3. They are the performance weak link (IMO), and can be replaced if you wish with equal value Mills MRA-12s. We can talk about doubling some of them.
I would speculate that one of the boards was built by a less experienced technician, but both should perform equally well. Those early hard-wired boards with classic components are higher performing than later PCBs with various asian components.
In light of Tom's professional opinion, I would keep these loudspeakers. It is rare to find such low S/N. Very cool to learn that this is an original design by Jim.
My response crossed yours in space. These speakers were not modded. A resistor lead touching a coil does not make electrical contact since the coil wire is insulated with varnish. I suggest you do some manual housekeeping so that nothing touches anything else and get to know your new speakers. We have considerable experience in upgrading 2.4s which we can apply either with these boards or with new boards. See if you can find beetlemania's report(s) earlier in this thread. He or jafant might guide you to the pages - this is a very long thread . . .
start with Page 190. The XO upgrade talk begins there, moving forward. Take your time as there is much to digest. It is good to have another DIY'er on the panel.
Whoa Tom, you are a huge fountain of knowledge, thank you for sharing that information!!! Its very cool to know these are the older crossovers from the factory. I guess I should have trusted my ears over my eyes for these.I saw all the various bypass and parallels and made the assumption these were modded, there is a noticeable difference in crossover build quality from one speaker to the next. I will see if I can shift things around in the one crossover to clean things up. I am going to read the thread starting where Jafant linked to catch up to what has been posted, hopefully that will help me decide what path to take with these, the board in one speaker looks like it will be tough to upgrade with very tight fit and some funky wire routing in some areas, sort of leaning towards new boards so I can just keep these as they are and also to retain some history a bit. I dunno, what do you all think? Thanks all for your help!
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