Thiel Owners
@vair68robert my 3.7's are toed in maybe 1/2" tops. i use a laser beam level and after removing the grills, i put the tool against the front of the speaker and it usually bisects the opposite speaker about 1" back. i want each speaker to be toed in such that the opposing speaker shows 1" back from the front of the speaker. i am sure that was clear as mud :)
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I based my dis-recommendation on multiple grounds. Rob knew the work and disrecommended it. I also know that Jim's approach is to balance the effects in the frequency and phase/time domains. We don't know how this XO tweak approaches that work. It may have merit. If anyone tries it out, a report here would do us all a service.
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Always a pleasure to follow the discussions posted here. Had to sell my 3.6 due to a move so ALL I have left are the 2.7. I'm missing some of the bottom end grunt and am looking at subs. What are your experiences with adding subs to Thiels? Tried a Sunfire True EQ10 that we have for home theater and it didn't go well. |
@ronkent Understood , using a tape measure lined up with the spikes at 1" toe-in the bi-sect line was 8 1/2" (at the bottom of the cabinet ) , I moved to a 3/4" toe-in and the bi-sect now is 7" . Boy did Billie Holiday's "Body and Soul" And Stan Getz's "Best of Stan Getz" sound fantastic last night . I'm going to leave them toed-in at 3/4" , measured from the spikes to the front wall. |
@solobone22 Greetings. i have been using REL subs very effectively with my Thiel 2.7's and now 3.7's. I have used a few generations but currently am enjoying a pair of S812's. i do find that two work a lot better than one. There is a really fine dealer here in Greensboro NC that sells them and is very knowledgeable about them. Big Kids Toys. |
@jafant you are most welcome. the thing that many still do not understand is that a good set of sub bass speakers are not just about more bottom. they add a richness and fullness to the sound that is amazing. plus two can really help even out a room's dips and peaks in that region. John Hunter at REL talks a lot about this concept and it is so true. The thing is a pair of full range speakers have to be positioned in a spot that will inevitably cause some sonic compromises. with a sub bass system, the mains can be put in positions that optimize imaging and spaciousness without adversely affecting the lower frequencies. |
trogdor425
Welcome! Good to see you here today. Nice score on CS 1.5 speakers. Equally nice to read that Velodyne is a sonic match. I have heard their "DD" series suwoofer(s) in other systems that did not feature Thiel loudspeakers. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes and system(s).
Happy Listening! |
Does anyone mind commenting on speaker cables that match with thiel and big amps, I am using a high current solid state amplifier, so far I have tried
1.a cheap set of 14awg multi-stranded planet waves cables that seems to be very balanced over all but not as detailed, this is what I was initially using, very decent 2. analysis plus - oval 9 - sounded really off with my system, not sure if i waited long enough for them to break in or even if break in is real, but the sound stage was odd tall but not expanding past the speakers horizontally, and there was an spotlight affect where upper mid range seemed emphasized 3. the music cable TMC -multi-strand solid core - very smooth, decent balance, somewhat rolled in the highs, which seems to make the mid more emphasized, these were probably the most easy going cables that are 4. anti-cables - solid core single wire- smooth smooth vocals, but over all not sounding very balanced, seems like the highs were rolled off, the vocals were really pleasing on these, notably smoother than all the others
5. kimber 8pr - multistranded cores - super clear, very bassy, somewhat bright. These are pretty decent. The clarity compared to the previous cables is very evident. Analytic is a good descriptor. These are slightly bright which make them less musical in some way.But i am currently still using them because they are the most revealing cables so far.
Are these cables with that mix the smoothness of the anitcables/solid core but with more detail and extension as the kimber, I want to try something with multiple solid cores, semi-tempted to try making some cables out of cat6a just to see how it would sound
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halifax
I see that you own a sweet pair of CS 2.4 plus Outriggers Speakers! Best practice, stick with a Copper cable. No Silver. Audioquest (AQ), Cardas, Kimber Kable, Purist Audio Designs, Transparent and Wireworld, are all sonic matches. The key is to dial-in said Cables to your Power Amp.
Which brand are you enjoying?
Happy Listening! |
@halifax You should demo Cardas Clear Reflexion if you can get some on loan, best ones i can think of for Thiel speakers. You can probably find them used.
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Jafant, Thanks for the suggestions, the Kimber 8pr is almost there, they are good, but after hearing how smooth vocals can be and how well cymbals are reproduced on some of the other cables, I think i can find something that works even better, the factory wire in the thiels is solid core which has been influencing me towards that end, I read Jim Thiels comments, i think on positive feedback where he says the solid core designs including litz were best for sound |
@halifax Krell amp --> Thiel 2.7 Cardas Golden Cross has so far been the best match |
The REL S812's are seriously impressive. They can flat out disappear when needed, yet will strike when requested. They're definitely not the old slow HT subwoofers of the past years. With that said, they transformed by HT as well as they added space (which I never thought a subwoofer would do!) to everything. Remarkable to say the least!!!! |
ronkent
I have spent time with the Focal Sopra 2. It does compete (not better than) Thiel Audio CS 2.4, CS 2.4 SE, CS2.7, CS 3.7 and Wilson Audio Sabrina/Sabrina X. Perhaps the Sopra 3 takes on CS 3.7 and Wilson Audio models above the Sabrina/SabrinaX up to DAW? Very similar to a Thiel Audio loudspeaker, in that, careful Gear matching is key to avoid excessive brightness from the Tweeter.
Happy Listening!
Happy Listening! |
Like @jafant said gear matching is the key and i can tell you guys that the Diablo 300 is really not a good match for Thiels, the tweeters will let you know. Even with Cardas cabling it didn't tame the treble so i got fed up and sold my Diablo 300. If you want Danish better look at Vitus awsome match with Thiels. Just my 2 cents. I think i'm going to order the Isoacoustics Gaia ll footers for my 3.7s, will let you guys know how that work. I already put many of them under my electronics and the result is spectacular. |
@jafant thanks Man. i figured you might know. I must say that i am amazed at how much better the 3.7's are sounding with the insertion of the new PS Audio DSD DAC II. The sound is so much richer and easier to listen to. it shows how much jitter we are getting in digital and how the Thiel speakers really hold nothing back. Their high resolution is a two edged sword but they sound stunning now. |
@ronkent I appreciate your update on the sound of the new PS Audio DSD MkII DAC when feeding Thiel speakers. I'm using the original version of that DAC right now, and I'm looking forward to the possibility of trading it in toward the MkII version when the beta testing has been completed. I'm especially impressed that you highlighted the new DAC's sound for its richness and ease of listening rather than focusing only on its reproduction of high-frequency detail. For me, the ideal DAC has to be able to exhibit transparency, imaging, and fullness of tone (especially on voices and acoustic instruments). My own experience is that listeners are too often impressed by detail retrieval even when it is out of balance with richness of tone in the midrange and bass. I'm hoping that the PS DSD MkII can combine transparency with realistic tonality, and that it it never sounds lean or bright on my Thiel 2.2 speakers. Your comments are very encouraging. |
@sdl4 you are most welcome. the original DSD DAC was revelatory and a big improvement on its predecessor, the PWD. the MKII is as big an improvement. the sound was great with the first DSD, but the two things i notice most with the new unit, is both more information but a much more relaxed and natural sound. The reduction in jitter (according to Paul) is why the sound is so much more natural and easy to listen to. when they get the bugs fixed (mine has had none) i encourage you to audition it but give it two weeks of playing to break in.
I have had the pleasure of owning five generations of Theil speakers: 2.0 2.2 2.4 2.7 3.7 This is a very iffy statement to make due to multiple variables, and to the time issues, but i think the biggest jump in sound i got was between the 2.0 and 2.2, and between the 2.2 and the 2.4. what i am saying is that when you can, try to get a pair of the 2.4 or 2.4SE’s. I am currently auditioning speakers to replace my 3.7’s, but so far both the Wilson Sabrinas and the Magico A5’s have not motivated me to make a change.
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Greetings everyone. It will be helpful to share some feedback and personal recommendations. |
About the wire thing - I’m living in that rabbit maze and it’s fascinating, complex and difficult. ll post more as I find time. A brief response to the ’solid or litz’ remark is YES. There are so many interacting variables of geometry, conductor purity, and insulation dielectrics that can go wrong in so many ways. George Cardas famously said (something to the effect of) ’solid conductors stay out of trouble easier’. Fifty years ago (Thiel beginnings!), little credence was given to wire as a performance element. We gained access to (at that time) obscure and esoteric considerations about wire via our cousin Ted Lyon who was a senior physicist on the Jupiter Space Probe project. Ted introduced us to wire considerations and solutions which resulted (among other things) in our adoption of ultra pure, long crystal, polished solid conductors in teflon. That solution persisted through Jim’s career. It can be improved upon, but with peril and expense. I’ve presently been massaging those considerations and variables for a long time. As time has passed, the term ’litz’ has faded from use due to foggy definitions. Originally it meant each individual conductor separately varnished (insulated), but came to apply to sub-bundles being varnished, which doesn’t address the inter-strand conduction problems. (That phenomenon is itself controversial.) That sense of no strands or conductors touching any others is the sense that Jim meant by 'solid or litz' being best. In today’s jargon, those individually litzed conductors would be called ’solid wire’, even if their gauge were smaller than a human hair. Besides Thiel’s 18 gauge solid, and many others’ fine-gauge (individually insulated) solids, the foil category fits the isolation requirements. Jim used Goertz foil speaker wire in his later years. The thinness of foil conductors solves the skin effect problems of round wire as well as meets the individually insulated requirements for non-signal migration. But its inherently high capacitance makes it inappropriate for use with some amplifiers, and likely to perform differently among many amplifier choices. So I am avoiding that avenue. I’ll come back with more comments and reports about my work over these last months. It’s quite a trip. |
I've gotten the outriggers for the 2.7 from Rob previously. Just to avoid misunderstanding/confusion and to clarify further, do you mean there is also an original Thiel set of spike base/plate (some call it pucks, Sound Anchors call it conecoaster, Herbie's audio lab calls it cone/spike puckies) for the outriggers?! |
