Thiel Owners

Happy New Year! All

Since things are quiet and I've been patiently waiting for Clarity Capacitors (1 year) to release their Purity series so I could finish the mid/tweeter crossover upgrade I thought I'd update the images on the virtual systems page under Thiel ( almost the last one ) .  

While waiting and being bored since it's the winter rainy season I tried many toe-in positions after giving up on have the speakers straight ahead ( I think that 3 feet from the side walls are not enough ) .  I circled back to a position that I preferred a long time ago of a toe-in of 9 degrees or 1 7/16ths inches . 

I also re-visited the room treatment on the front wall , something that I hadn't done after replacing the rear ported speakers with the 2.7s .  I found out that I was over dampened , boy do I feel dumb .  My though was the front wall treatment affected only the bass frequencies since if I stood behind the speakers that is what I was hearing , WAS I WRONG  . So an old dog can learn new tricks .

Hope you enjoy my confession .

Happy New Year All

Hi, just purchased a pair of Thiel Cs1.5. Great sounding pair of speakers in my tiny room of 2.3m by 2.3m with a small rectangle extra space like 1 m by 1.5 m, driven by Schiit Aegirs. Seems that the bass is a little light weight when compared to playing in my living room with a Cambridge audio cxa81. When I am near the speakers, I can hear the bass but at the listening position the bass is much less.

A few suspects.

1. Amplifier too low powered

2. Phase cancellation

3. Speakers placed too away from the wall. Now is making use of the small spaced place about 1m out from the rear wall.

4. Not run in speaker cables and interconnect. Run in for 30hours so far.

Any advise much appreciated.

Thanks

Jon

Happy Friday! All

gryphon1972

Welcome! Good to see you here today. Stay tuned until one of the Panel members chimes in to address your query. We have a few fans/owners of the CS 1.5 speaker. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes and system.

Happy Listening!

@gryphon1972 I’ve owned the 1.5s for many years and gave them to my brother when i purchased 3.7s back in 2014.

Your room is definitely too small you should use them in your living room.

My bro is driving them with a Classe CAP-151 integrated, really great combo and plenty of smooth power.

Thanks Jafant.

Thanks Thieliste. I know I should be playing in the living room. But they sounded great in my small room besides the bass which seems to be lightweight. So I wanted to try. 😅

thieliste

Thank you for addressing gryphon's query.

Happy Listening!

gryphon1972

My pleasure. Tell me about the rest of your System.

Happy Listening!

Jafant. I am listening from

 1. my mac mini via tidal

2. with a uad Apollo twin interface

3. Topping a90 discrete preamp

4. Schiit Aegirs power amp

I am listening mostly to vocal music.

Cheers

Hmm the bass is opening up after another 24 hours of run in. Think probably is the cables.😅 

Let me see after a few more days.

FWIW:

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was trying some Isoacoustic Gaia 2 footers for the Thiel 2.7.

Not sure I followed up, so...

My speakers sit on a shag rug overlaying a wood main floor. The floor clearly vibrates around the speakers and I can feel the sound right through to my legs when they are up on the ottoman and through the listening sofa. Kind of nice actually.

But to experiment, I first tried (quite a while back) the Nobsound spring footers - cheap ones found on Amazon. Those amazed me, completely decoupled the speakers so no floor vibration, tightened up the bass somewhat and made the speakers disappear even more. Downsides were a lack of "room feel" so it became more electrostatic-like in presentation. Also the tone/timbre lightened up a bit too much, slightly thinned out. It was hard to tell how much this was due to the effect of decoupling vs just raising the speakers up an inch or two on the footers.

Later I tried the expensive Townshend Isolation speaker bars, also spring based but much more seriously designed. I liked the fact they didn’t raise the speakers so was hoping to keep the tonality I liked. Well, it did kind of do what I was expecting - again, totally decoupled the speakers so no floor vibration. But it did leave the sound to be a bit richer. But for some reason it didn’t quite gel for me. The sound slightly changed tonality, a bit darker and almost a bit sluggish sounding. It was subtle but I still found I preferred the speakers on the floor, which gave more density and nice timbre to the sound.

I was thinking that maybe what I wanted was something that semi-decoupled from the floor, which would tighten the bass, but also leave a bit of feel for the music. Along those lines I tried a Primacoustic Recoil Stabilizer unit under the speakers.

Unfortunately I didn’t find that did anything at all to better the sound. Didn’t really seem to tighten up the bass much and the speakers sounded more "together" and right just on the floor again.

My last ditch effort for this stuff were the Isoacoustic Gaias. Again, I was hoping for a sort of in-between of the spring based footers and the sound of the speakers on the floor.

I was quite impressed with the Gaias once they were installed! The bass did tighten up, speakers disappeared more, a bit more clarity, and yes a bit of tonal change but not off-putting, at least at first. And there was still some more "bass feel" that I didn’t get so much with the other spring based footers. So I’d been living with those for the last couple weeks. I’ve quite enjoyed the way the Thiels disappear even more.

But over time I found the tonal change not quite to my liking. It had lightened the tone a bit too much, just a bit too blanched and lean. I had a feeling that this tonal change may not have been due to the Gaia isolating the speakers so much as raising the height more (I had used the isoacoustic carpet spikes too, which raised the speakers even more).

Now, supposedly it really helps to have the carpet spikes with a carpet, so the Gaias can be more secured to the floor beneath. But to experiment and hopefully lower the speakers a bit, I took off the carpet spikes. And...voila! That did indeed bring back some richness to the tone! They still seemed to be working enough to keep the bass pretty tight - not quite as tight and precise, but still very good - but I definitely preferred the sound over all. So at least for now (unless I notice something over time) I’ve got as close to what I was looking for as I have found.

@prof very interesting feedback, is your carpet thick or not ? you don't have stability problems without the carpet disks ?

I should get my Gaia 2s with the carpet disks next week, will try with and without the carpet disks.

@thieliste 

The shag carpet combined with underpad is pretty thick.

No I'm not having stability problems without the carpet spikes.  You can wiggle the speakers a big if you grab them, but they feel solid and not easy to push over.

I never actually tried the official Thiel spikes under these speakers.  My previous Thiel 3.7s didn't come with spikes, but the 2.7s came with the outrigger and spikes.

I hadn't bothered trying them and I included that stuff with the 3.7s when I sold those.  I think I didn't do the outriggers because I liked to experiment with different speaker positions and it was much easier without spikes.  I also used Herbie's slider footers underneath for a while, which didn't raise the speakers much.

Every time I've raised them I didn't care for the tone as much, so I wonder if this has something to do with a tonal change due to changing the bass reflection boundary when raising the speakers.

@tomthiel ​​​​​​thanks for the inputs. I will see what I can do with the placement of the speakers. Room is definitely small. Now only treating first reflections with some absorbent foams.

Using custom cables as below.

The power is shielded cable with rhodhium Iec.

The speaker is awg4 super thick shower ofc cable with silver and gold plugs

The rca is twin core double shielded upocc from japan with silver plated plugs

Btw. Do you raise the Thiels 1.5 higher with stands? Currently I don't have too much issues as my sofa is low. Would it change the sound signature as some of you have mentioned?

Some thoughts regarding speaker height -

Although the distance from the woofer to the floor has some relevance to the frequency content, its contribution is minor compared to the relative distance of each driver to the listener's ear. Those relative distances are critical to preserve the integrated sound composed of individual onset transients from each driver. The distances are established by the relative placement of the drivers along their baffle and the ear's relationship to those launch points. Higher frequency geometry is more critical due to their small wavelengths.

Thiel design assumptions are an ear at 36" from the floor and a distance of 3M (10') with a minimum of 2.5M (100") more or less. Moving the speaker higher or lower is quite similar to moving the ear higher or lower. The relative driver distances are distorted.

A fairly safe way to keep the geometry straight with very little compromise to the integrity of the composite wave is to vary the vertical angle of the speakers. I suggest marking a spot 36" from the speaker bottom, and making a target at your actual ear height. Hold a builders' square at the speaker height mark and tilt the speaker until your sight-line hits the ear target. If you raise the speaker by any means, the compensation is to tilt forward to bring the triangulated geometry back to focus at the ear. (And vice-versa for high seating.)

If you use REQ, FuzzMeasure, etc. the proper tilt, and a mic at ear position will produce the best-looking step response. Other tilts/heights will produce a hole or lump or offset between the early-arrival tweeter onset transient and later-arrival woofer onset transient. Later Thiel products with coax / coincident upper range drivers solve the tweeter x midrange issues, but the high vs bass timing issues still remain. 

Thiel's design target for bass Q is .7 in an anechoic environment. That is on the articulate / lean side of the tracks. Room gain will augment and time-extend the bass to the extent that the room is large enough to support bass frequencies.

Here is a link to a relevant article by Robert Harley published in The Absolute Sound. 

prof

If you would like to try the original speaker spikes that came with the 2.7s 

I could send you a set since I replaced them with the spikes used with outriggers ,

the originals have a rounded point so they would sit on your shag carpet .

Rob

@tomthiel 

Great info!

@vair68robert 

Thank you for that very kind offer!  I don't think I'll take you up on it as I think I'll get along ok with the Gaias.

FWIW, if anyone has experience and opinions about the Gaia vs standard Thiel spikes, I'm interested in hearing about it.

I use the original spikes with the outriggers, i will report back once i receive my Gaia 2s.

@tomthiel great info!

I just managed to swap the listening position to allow for a longer distance from the speaker to the listening position as recommended from the user manual. Initially was about 4.5 feet and now to about 6 feet. But distance from the back wall is now about 1 feet from about 4 feet. The speakers sounded different now, the brightness that I experience earlier was totally gone. The bass is much reinforced. However the soundstage height and depth seems to have suffered as the speakers are closer to the rear wall. I am not sure why the soundstage height is shorter now. I suspect that the distance between the listening position and the speakers affected it.

It really is a very interesting speaker.

The CS1.5 spent its whole life on Stereophile’s Class A (limited bass) list. But its design constraints are real - a seated listener at least 100" away. Also, the only baked-in timbral balance assumption is that it is on a floor. The anechoic (no floor) frequency balance is shelved down 2dB below 200 Hz such that floor placement makes it flat.) Placement relative to walls, including the wall behind it, greatly affects amplitude and quality of bass. Your stage height observation is due to spectral interference from lobing of the individual drivers. Those propagation patterns integrate beyond about 8’ listening distance. I suspect you can get it close to right by careful attention to ear height and cabinet tilt. You gain some positional flexibility by listening up to 25° off axis (which would be straight-ahead at 10'.) If you have placed your speakers along the room’s diagonal axis, then the side wall reflection will be greatly reduced. If not, the Thiel wide-dispersion characteristic works against you in that small room.

@gryphon1972 , The CS 1.5's are a honey of a little speaker, and FWIW the first 1 series that I genunely liked. With that said, I think your room (and amplification) is too small for them. Something like the Thiel MCS or SCS would work much better for your circumstances. They are by design more suited for the placements you have available to you. Even then, with  impedance loads dropping to around 3 Ohms you'll need more power from your amplification. As most amps aren't typically spec'd to 3 Ohms, you'll probably have to find the still hard to find 2 Ohm spec'd amps that are actually spec'd to provide at least 200 Watts into 2 Ohms. Don't be fooled be specs that suggest that the amp is "stable" into such loads, as that is not at all the same.

tomthiel

Thank You for addressing the CS 1.5 speakers for gryphon1972.

PM sent.

Happy Listening!

unsound

Thank You for chiming in to address gryphon1972 's 1.5 speaker query.

Happy Listening!

Thank you @tomthiel @unsound ​​​​​​.

Yes I am still playing around with all the variables within the constraints of my room. One thing I really loved the 1.5s now in my system is the vocals sounded very real. So most of the time instead of trying to set it up right, I am sucked into listening to music.

Especially with the current distance which has slight bass reinforcement making it a slightly fuller sound. Soundstage depth is a little lesser and on certain music the bass notes seems a little muddy.

Will keep moving the speakers and hopefully can find the best position in my small room. I do like the pairing with the Aegirs amp even though the low power.

I have tried it in my living room with my Cambridge cxa 81 which I don’t really like as the sound is lean in the midrange although bass control is better.

Until I find a bigger better room and a more powerful amp that has the similar sound signature of the Aegirs. It will be finding the best room placement I have in my current place and enjoying the speakers 😄. I really loved how this speaker sounds despite the fussy setup requirements from equipment and placement.

I have copied the link for the setup of the 1.5s. I guess the most important is the minimum distance from the listener of 6ft. For the minimum distance from back wall I’m treating it with bass traps. And for one side of the side wall which only has a 1 ft distance, I’m treating it with diffusers to damp the first reflection.

Happy Friday! All

Happy Friday!

tomthiel

Thank you for the PM and update.

Happy Listening!

Tom,

Are your CS 7.2 set up yet? I'm interested hearing your experience in your listening room. 

I'm building a dedicated listening room at the company with all new dedicated lines.

I have my 7.2 in custom built crates waiting for their new space. 

Pulled the trigger on upgrading a front end also.

duramax747

Thank you for the update. What front end gear will drive your 7.2 loudspeakers?

Looking forward in reading about your new room and system.

Happy Listening!

All

as we embark on 2023, update your Virtual Systems page. This is beneficial and helpful for the members on The Panel.

Happy Listening!

duramax747 - congratulations! The room is such a very big deal. Treat your AC mains like signal wires with star quad twisted runs, etc. and high grade receptacles, etc. Run off 240 volts where you can. Very worth the trouble.

No, I haven't heard the 7.2s. No suitable space or amplification yet. My amplification is going the be my good ole Classé DR6 and pair of DR9s. Bill Thalmann / Music Technology did a fabulous job upgrading the 6. The 9 project is waiting for Purity Caps (to ship in early March!) It has good reason to be equally stunning. We're dedicating each amp to mono and taking out the (funky) balancing circuitry to make room for goodies of Bill's dreams. Sometime this calendar year I hope to have the 7.2s set up somewhere that really shows them off. Not yet, maybe soon.

Tom,

You cannot have enough power with the 7.2 which is my favorite Thiel speaker. 

Please keep us posted as to the amp upgrades. Sounds like a fun project. 

We have 5- 600 amp electric panels at the company so pleanty of power on tap. 

The plan is to run a 60 amp dedicated sub panel off the main. Between main and sub panel a 15KVA Topaz Isolation transformer will be installed 

Each line ran from sub panel to outlet will have its own isolation transformer. For amps I have matching 5KVA Topaz isolation transformers. For digital and pre amp cicuits their own isolation transformer. These will all be located at the sub panel so no noise or hum in the listening room. 

 2- 240v  20 amp circuits for amps. One for each mono block. 

Three additional 20 amp circuits will be ran for pre amp,  digital, and possible analog rig. 

Running 8awg copper wire to minimize voltage drop. 

I understand star quad twisted wire. How would I do this with large gauge wire in insulated jacket? 

The soundstage height and depth is back. Soundstage focus is better now. Did 2 things,

1. Level the speakers with spirit leveler

2. Treat the side first reflection with foam. (Tomthiel is right about the side walls)foam is 2 feet higher than the speaker height and place to behind the speakers.

I think all is also right on the amp being too low powered. I think when on some songs that are louder and more complex, I can hear some hardness in the vocals. And when there is too much bass on certain sounds, it seems to mess up the vocals a bit in terms of teh placement of the vocal in the sound stage.Or could it be other reasons the hardness in the sound?

What is a good amp that is more powerful and sounds similar to the schiit Aegirs?

Thanks 🙏

Max - what a fabulous setup!

The DR79s are only 100 watts (stereo) into 8 ohms. We are dedicating them to bridged mono operation. Their stock power is rated at 1100 watts into 2 ohms. Hotrod will increase output. I realize that more is better, but these amps are what I have and know, and Bill T. has encouraged this particular upgrade.

My thoughts on house wire include the effects of Electrical and EMF radiation/corruption on the transmission properties of the power cable. The loads are not steady-state due to less than perfect isolation of the audio devices. Power cable commonly comes in flat and round (with a twist) configurations. I recommend the round variety with hot leads opposite. (Not star quad, but field propagation is better than flat wire when loads fluctuate.) Also consider the radiation characteristics of the outlets themselves. All 'hospital' or 'laboratory' grade devices are not created equal.

Keep us posted as you build out this room.

Tom,

Like you more projects than humanly possible to tackle.

My thought and experience with the 7.2 it’s more about current than watts. In every scenario I had high current amps I preferred them over high wattage.

Your amps will have a firm grip on The 7.2. The bottom end with the right amp is infectious.

I’ve come up with a design for 7.2 bases that will not raise the height of the speaker but provide a sonic improvement from my experience. I’ll share it with you by sending you CAD/model files.

In listening room I am filling the wall the speaker are behind with lambs wool. I’ll tack a silk black backing over it. I’ll take cabinet grade baltic birch void free plywood and throw it on the router and cut an array of various sized holes and slots throughout the entire sheet. I’ll install and the look will be holes and slots recessed back and highlighted with the black silk material which will absorb the excess energy coming off that wall.

In the corners I will roll lambs wool in 12" diameter roll the length of floor-to ceiling height. I will frame it out and set wool in. I will cut the birch plywood the same as I did the other but these will be curved so it will look pie shaped. They will be built in bass traps.

Natural cedar T&G ceiling with some diffusers is the plan. Western cedar does an amazing job on its on of getting rid of slap echo.

I did a mock up of a very sophicated suspension rack based on a Indy Car front suspension system. The final material will be 25mm Panzerholz for the base.

I always aimed for the fences but some days the mind is willing but the body is weak.

duramax747

That is a seriously good wiring infrastructure.

I know that you endorse Pass Labs power amps.

What other gear will round out the Front End?

Happy Listening!

Here is a video of our StarSound, LiveVibe demo room located in Wisconsin not far from Chicago..There are a huge number of details behind those walls. Constuction details are rigid support structure with low energy storage potential and fast dissapation all mechancially ground with some of our standard devices and some newly designed for the Energy Room. The in wall wire is a type used in the medical field and then deep cryo'd.  Tom

I also plan on purchasing a pair of 7.2s in the future but  have to wait until i can afford my dream monoblocks a pair of used Audionet Heisenbergs and a dedicated listening room for all this gear.

jafant,

A Bricasti M1 Series II, just released, is on its way. 

duramax747

Which brand of Cabling will round out the System?

Happy Listening!

jafant,

When I get everything set up I will run through cabling I have. From there I will see what will be an upgrade by trying other cables. I dont like to identify what something is or will be until I have spent time with it.

New room, new power system, different components..etc so I’m sure my cabling will be different.

With the 7.2 I like a 300b tube pre amp that puts a little more meat on the bone in mids.
I’d like to pull the xover out of the 7.2 and make them outboard and upgrade them with better caps and resisters. Also internal cabinet wiring without the use of binding post with drivers wired diectly to crossover.

The two people I know who had 7.2 spent over 60k in both instances to replace them. So to extract a greater sonic gain from them with the above modifications appeals to my senses.

As Tom T noted running 240v, especially to your amps, to drive the big Thiels is a serious upgrade.

Mine are in like new condition. The caveat is I do not like the cherry finish anymore. Once I take crossovers out I will most likely remove the drivers as well and continplate modernizing the cabinets with a high end automotive paint.

I remember talking with Sherri @ Thiel back in the day and she told me Thiel did a special color (pink) for Janet Jackson and a metallic silver for Jerry Steinfeld. True story.

Dont get me wrong the wood gives the Thiel a modern mid century vibe which they are known for.

I think with a high quality automotive satin finish paint, a custom designed speaker base, and an external crossover that goes with the 7.2 would make them look current and difficult to replace without taking out as second mortgage.

duramax747

Thank You for the follow up. I am looking forward in reading more about the gear surrounding those 7.2 speakers. At your level, Cabling is paramount.

Agreed, One will spend a significant amount of Money to better a Thiel Audio loudspeaker.

Happy Listening!

I just bought a mint condition Thiel CS.5 and very happy with the results I am getting in my room. This is a serious speaker indeed. Paired with a Vincent SV-236MK integrated amp (tested also with a Rogue Sphinx and a NAD C275BEE power amp) it produced a big holographic sound with amazing consistency from top to bottom, and for my surprise they were the most easy speakers to place in the room up until now.

The speakers just disappear and the bass is very satisfying in my 3,6 x 4,9m dedicated listening room. Some CS.5 users reported a week bass output but in my room (and to my tastes) it is are very good and proportional to the rest of the spectrum.

A praise must be given also to the top end quality: I am discovering so much new details in very well known records... it is addictive!

Some of my other speakers are: Totem Arro, KEF LS50 and Duevel Planets, and they all have their strengths but I find the Thiel to be easily more engaging and true to the music.

I also love the design and the built quality and I am proud to own them.