Pardon me Jay, I neglected to mention that phase characteristics in the speaker also influence amp performance. Phase lead and lag illustrate reactive characteristics of the load, which are far more difficult for an amp to drive than a purely resistive load. Thiel speakers do a good job of presenting a non-reactive resistive load which allows the amp its best shot of capably driving that load. So, even though Thiel impedance is very low, requiring lots of current, at least the load is fairly benign.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,846 responses Add your response
The max current spec is instantaneous allowed by the storage capacitors, transformers and various resistance elements. Such a high maximum will maintain integrity of the early onset transient of the signal. Where phase angle comes to play is that such a clean onset transient would be rounded-suppressed-scrambled by a phase incorrect transducer. With phase integrity the system has the potential to replicate such an onset transient. A robust speaker can handle along the lines of 100 watts music power and more like 10 watts continuous. So, this high power delivery is strictly in the realm of transients. To that realm, the improvements brought by audio resistors, ultra capacitors and high purity coils and wire are also in the realm of transient fidelity. A speaker with schlock stuff will measure the same as with great stuff with a steady-state input signal. |
jon_5912 your math is correct. I also would like to know, precisely, how Right phase angle(s) in our Thiel speakers tie all of this together? I do know that it is related to providing an Amp that is 2 to 3 Ohms stable across the frequency range. Perhaps one of our engineer -minded contributors can chime in here? Happy Listening! |
If I remember correctly voltage (v) = current(I) times resistance (r). Watts equal volts(v) times amps(I). That means that if an amp ever actually dumped 90 amps into a 4 ohm load it would be delivering 32,400 watts. That's 43 horsepower. It must be able to deliver that for a VERY short period of time or there's some other factor I don't know about. I was a math major but I've never spent time trying to understand the numbers with this stuff and it's been a long time since I did any non-trivial math. Is it phase angle related? i=90 r=4 v = ir = 360 w = 360*90 = 32,400 1hp = 746 watts. so, 90 amps into 4 ohms is 43.43 hp. |
According to audioadvisor specs the JC5 has a max of 90 amps/channel. I tend to look at the size of the transformer and it has 1.7kva which is pretty darn huge. https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHAJC5 |
Todd - the doubling down spec proves the amp is not current limited. This amp is technically current limited (doesn't double down), but the current specs are so high as to be plenty strong for the job. I think I read that it is rated into "short term 1.5 ohm loads", and the output stage delivers enormous current. As (perhaps prof?) someone said earlier: at some point enough current is enough. A full lab analysis would be nice, but John Curl and Parasound have stellar reputations. sandy - can you get any more information regarding the 2 ohm behavior of this amp? |
sandydennis11 Thank You for the prelim report on the JC5. The manufacturer specs look incredible to state the least. No doubt that this power amp will become a modern classic. A few years ago I spent some time w/ the HCA-3500 and it is a beast as well. Looking forward to more reports as you massage this amp into your system/room. Happy Listening! |
I know John Ellison over on audio asylum uses the parasound A21 with his 3.7s. It's a really powerful amp for $2,500. https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=speakers&n=361836&highlight=thiel+3+7&r=&a... |
We have a company out here that takes all the pain out of packing and shipping big speakers. They work with the Museums in SF, so they are the best and of course expensive. Would not trust any other movers. At least 2grand to ship to east coast. And of course money seems not to be an object here in the home of Facebook, Google etc. so selling used equipment is a bit of a struggle. |
sandy, I put up mine favouring local sale, but it was actually easier to sell them non-locally as I got a lot of interest from people all over. As it was made clear in my ad hat buyer pays shipping everyone inquiring knew this and many wanted to arrange that the speakers were shipped to them. So in a way I see the willingness to ship speakers should open up the number of offers. Most people wouldn’t expect shipping to be included in the prIce. All that said, I’m done buying/selling big speakers as they are a pain to ship. |
dan - no need for intimidation . . . I'm the "other Thiel". My brother Jim was the design engineer who was fluent in all matters technical. I was the manufacturing guy who built the product and production systems. Although I am conversant in the technicalities, I am not an audio engineer and am here to learn from you guys and develop a possible path for upgrade of classic products. That upgrade project is behind schedule. It is likely that the first real product to emerge will be beetlemania's CS2.4s. I am cutting my teeth on PowerPoints and CS2 2s and have recently bought a pair of 3.6s. The 1.6, 6.1 and 7.2 are also on my radar. These each represent the terminal expression of their model form before the x.7 series, which could also benefit from upgraded caps, coils and resistors, but they are comparatively new and functionally current, and therefore last on the list. Regarding your question about which big Thiel, I think either the 6.1 or 7.2 are strong. Both have upgrade potential via better caps, foil coils and Mills resistors. Both are extremely amplifier demanding with impedance around 3 ohms over most of the range. FYI, those were both officially replaced by the 3.7, but the back-story may shed some light. Jim was dying and Thiel needed to streamline its offerings, since all the pre x.7 were manufactured in-house. The obsoleted products still had performance viability, but the company chose to shift the x.7 XO and driver manufacturing to China for production viability. If anyone has sixes or sevens, we would have to reverse engineer the crossovers which I can do from photos and/or a loaner crossover. By the time we get to those models, we'll have clear ideas of what to replace with what. |
Hi all it's been some time since I chimed in, I try to have something relevant to bring to the table and will admit i'm flat out intimidated. What other forum has ther own in house designer engineer (Tom Thiel) I love the idea of creating a list of Thiel friendly amps, especially tube amps as they baffle me with there ability at a fraction of the wpc of Solid state. To the gentleman looking at the large Cary Solid states those are a no go they cant operate in the lower impedance levels our Thiel need. I was told by Cary them selves there SI 300 Intergrated works fantastic on them and is very reasonably priced, It also has one hell of a Pre amp & Dac, I finally installed my all Thiel HT/2ch room two weeks ago and ended up with a classe 5300for the 2.7 mains, MCS1 center and 1.7 rears, I highly recommend the larger Classe amps, The four power point 1.2 are powered with PS audio mew 700 mono class D. But what brought it all together was a Lyngdorf processor with room perfect and made integrating 2 thiel SS2 subs in stereo up front with the 2.7's in two channel it is the best I have heard them. It also runs an SVS 16 ultra in rear corner in LFE for effects and isn't used for two channel. I digest all my 2 channel music through Tidal, Deezer, Spotify hi res addition and have a blue sound that is utilizing the much better Dac in the Lyngdorf. I loved the silent back round of the Lyngdorf and the ease of sub integration that I bought there 3400 2ch intergrated for my 3,7;s I couldn't be more pleased, absolutely magic, I now want to know which of the really large Thiel speakers I would enjoy. Tom what a you hot rodding first? I owe the the members of this thread and look forward to the day i can bring more to the table. There is magic happening with state of the art room/speaker correction combined with true digital amps matched with good Dac and music streamer with tidal MQA files are Nirvana . |
sandy - I am very interested in hearing your thoughts when you do add the SS-2 subs. The JC-5 is, I believe, the work of John Curl: one of the greats. cat - In addition to the mid, the eq also drives the woofer beyond linear excursion and, believe it or not, the bottom of the tweeter is boosted by the eq . . . just a little, but it precedes Thiel's ultra long excursion drivers. Everything matters. |
Interesting comments Tom concerning the use of subs with 3.5s without the equalizer in circuit. That’s exactly how I run mine now - dual subs actually - and I’m thrilled with the result. This allows me to do real justice to more powerful recordings without worrying about the stress on the vulnerable mid-range drivers. I takes a bit of fine tuning to get everything balanced, but well worth it. I’m actually resting my 3.5s at the moment and am running my Quad 57s. What these help to confirm is how good that 3.5 mid-range is. It’s certainly not disgraced by the Quads. |
