I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
(f you can place the amplifier somewhere between or very near the speakers, do so. Run short 12 or 10 gauge equivalent cables to the speakers. Run either balanced or unbalanced lines from the preamp to the amplifier. (Balance preferred over long distances).
Works great for my 2.7s. I have a 25-foot run between preamp and amplifier.
Note: I'm not specifying any particular cable manufacturer. The trick is to get large diameter copper cabling. 16 gauge cables are a No-No, as you'l be putting several hundred watts through to the Thiels.
Thank You for sharing the various gear that you have tried on the CS 2.4 speaker. You are running a very interesting combination, Aesthetix and SR cabling, my audiophile friend.
Looking forward in reading your report/review on the Pass Labs X150.8 amp.
Dsper...what was your experience with Hegal amplification? To ameliorate your excess high energy at high volumes have you experimented with sitting a little bit farther out from your speakers? In doing so you may want to eliminate any toe in which should help some with the brightness at high volumes. I’ve been using an Aesthetix Atlas for the past six years on my 2.4’s -- the Atlas has a beautifully sweet top end. I also have tubes on the front end - an Aesthetix Janus preamp. Have you considered class D? The last generation Bel Cantos (the Ref500Ms and the Ref1000Ms) sound great on our speakers with absolutely no harsh top end at high volumes. I do NOT recommend the new Bel Canto Ref 600s which sounded very recessed in the upper midrange to me. I’ve heard the Bryston 4b3 which is good but also a bit harsh in the highs at high volumes. I’ll be trying (should receive it tomorrow...color me excited!) a Pass X150.8 and will report my results here. If its harsh at high volumes I may try tubes as well, more specifically ARC and VAC and may try Ayre as well. I’ll report all my findings. My room is pretty well damped so the room is NOT adding to the problem of too much high end energy and frankly I notice it only at high volumes (on the Bryston 4b3 for instance). Keep us all posted on what you try and find out. As far as cables go I’m using Synergistic Research Element Series Cooper and Tungsten throughout and find them a stunning match.
A real problem with Thiel speakers is how ruthlessly they reveal upstream problems. That's not to say they themselves might be the problem, but . . . A tell-tale is that if you can extract excellent or trouble-free performance from an excellent source, then your problem might lie elsewhere. Why I mentioned cable is that Thiel's current-draw exacerbates cable problems. Dealers and/or direct sale manufacturers such as Morrow tend to offer generous cable comparison schemes. I suggest long pre to power amp interconnects with short source and speaker runs, especially if you now have something different than that. When you don't have a clue, mix it up and see what floats.
tomthiel, I appreciate the advice, well not all of it.....the ceiling mirror thing.......:-)!
If I really think about it, it may be that the recordings are the problem. I am listening to some Chet Baker right now and I can play it as loud as I want with no problem.
More to think about.
I am wondering if a different pair of interconnects between the source and preamp would help? Of course, I would have no idea on where to start.
Dsper - I suspect something other than your speakers or amps. Your room setup may invite improvement (they always do), but rarely cause high frequency problems, except from side-wall bounce. Is there a hard surface where you would see the speaker if a mirror were there? (Take down that ceiling mirror!) The CS5 tweeter is really sweet and well behaved. There is a possibility of XO capacitor leaking that could overload the lower end of the tweeter, or upper midrange. On that front, I suggest you contact Rob Gillum at rob@coherentsourceservice.com for advice.
What comes to my mind is cabling - RF leakage into cables-as-antennae. Check your RF situation-try killing all non hi-fi devices. Try borrowing Goertz or other cable that is very different from your present stuff. Try changing lengths (interconnects vs speaker cable) and so forth. Try shielded AC-power cables while you're at it.
Sources are also suspect in these matters. You might consider trying an analog source with some impeccable recordings.
My intention is to broaden your troubleshooting mind. Your post suggests you may be focusing on the system elements that are highly likely to be exonerated at the end of the process. Keep us posted.
Welcome! dsper Consult Mark w/ Reno HiFi since you like the Pass Labs sound. Coda, Pass and Threshold are connected, affiliated w/ Nelson Pass. Older Adcom as well. Perhaps one of the other owners here are versed in Prima Luna and can offer a suggestion. Personally, I enjoy a tubed pre-amp mated to a solid state Power amp.I am intrigued w/ your AudioSpace CD8 transport as well. Keep us posted on your audition/purchase decision.Happy Listening!
I am looking for some advice about the weak link in my system...
My room is 18 by 34 with room treatments on the front wall. Due to room logistics, my Thiel CS5's sit out from the front wall about 4 feet with 3 feet on one sidewall and 7 feet on the other side wall. I sit about 9 feet from the speakers, which are about 9 feet apart. Thus roughly half the room length is behind me.
My preamp is a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium and I listen to redbook CD's with a Hegel HD25 DAC using an AudioSpace CD8 with Phillips transport.
I have auditioned in home Krell, Parasound, Hegel, Levinson, and Pass amps among others. I liked a Pass x350.0 the best but it was huge and was a space problem.
My current amp is a Coda CS that sounds remarkably similar to the Pass to my ears. I have been told that Pass dealers do not like Coda because of the close similarity of sound and much tighter profit margins on the Codas..FWIW. The Thiels dip down to under two ohms and are inefficient but the Coda has no trouble with the bass.
The Coda stays in Class A for the first ten watts. It seems to me that the sound becomes too bright in the treble at high volumes. Maybe because the Coda leaves class A or perhaps it is the metal tweeters in the Thiels?
Anyway, I like a smooth, nuanced sound with detail and a deep sound stage. My head banging days are over as I seem to have gravitated to acoustic music, jazz, and female vocals.
So...assuming that I keep the Thiels, what is the weakest link in my system and what would be a good improvement and why?
Good to see you - thosb Not sure about the Prima Luna? Rogue Audio is a sonic match, especially, the m-180 (monoblocks). A CS 3.7 owner over on Audio Asylum uses this combo in excellent effect. Keep us posted on your purchase decision. Happy Listening!
Anyone tried a PrimaLuna amp? Each time I visit a hifi store, I leave smitten by a tube amp, many of which won't fit into my current audio budget (looking at you BAT and PS Audio!). Last weekend it was the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP, curious to hear about any listening experiences with this or any other lower cost tube amps (Rogue, for example) to pair with my 2.3s.
Pops: too funny. she is very sweet but is very strong. not that big actually, maybe 135 lbs. But at age 65, and two marriages, i doubt there will be a third one.
As this is something of a knowledge dump for Thiel speaker owners, I figure I may as well relay my recent packing experience with the big 3.7s. Who knows, maybe it will come in handy for someone down the line selling their Thiels, or even shipping them to be serviced. I include advice from Rob Gillum of coherentsourceservice who helped guide me through some of this.
At least in case of the larger Thiel speakers like the 3.7, they were shipped upright strapped to a pallet, from Thiel. That’s also how I received my second hand pair of 3.7s.
When unboxing...take photos! For reminders during re-boxing at some point.
Here’s how packing my 3.7s went:
Placed the blue foam fitted base (which has plywood attached to the bottom) on the floor, and then placed in the speakers standing upright into that base.
Secured the grills to the speaker. Rob mentioned a couple of large rubber bands that would go around the speaker securing the grills for shipping. I presume those are normally supplied in the shipping but I guess I never got any. So I simply made long rubber bands by attaching a series of smaller ones around the speaker.
Next I did a couple layers of thick bubble wrap around the speaker.
Then placed the plastic bag (comes with shipping) over the speaker.
Next, carefully slipped box over the upright speaker. NOTE: As recommended by Rob, I made sure the box side with the serial number and finish description were at the BACK of the speaker. Doing this helps as a reminder as to which way the speaker is oriented in the box, so if you have to lay it down you can make sure it’s going on it’s back, vs mistakenly laying it with the drivers facing down.
Placed in the 4 corner braces in to the corner of the speaker box. (They slip right down past the blue-Styrofoam, in between the corner of the blue foam base and the inner speaker box).
Put the molded Styrofoam stabilizer on the top cap of the speaker.
The Styrofoam base has on top 4 molded indents in to which the spikes for that speaker are placed. I placed them in there securing with some blue-tack and then packing tape over those spikes, to prevent any shifting during shipping. (Shouldn’t happen of course if the box is kept upright. Though you have to tilt it anyway - see last step).
Closed up the top, secured the box flaps with packing tape.
FINALLY: THIS is the part that threw me initially. I now had to seal up the bottom box flaps, which meant tilting the speaker on to the ground on it’s back. BUT....when tilting the speaker to it’s back, the speaker slips out a bit, so the bottom base board is sticking out. That sucker will NOT be pushed back in when the speaker is just lying on it’s back. We tried tilting the bottom of the speaker box up a bit to try to shuffle the end in, but it wouldn’t budge. My intuition was that I wouldn’t want to tilt the box upside down as the speaker wasn’t made to have it’s weight upside down.
But....that was my mistake. (And I’m trying to save anyone else from this mistake).
Rob then told me the top cap was very strong, and it was fine to tip the box upside down, speaker on to it’s head, and in fact you have to in order to get the speaker fully in. So we did that and...viola! It worked. The speaker only finally shuffled all the way in to the box once it was vertically upside down.
After which we could seal up the bottom of the speaker box with packing tape. Then return the speaker to standing upright.
Agree guys on the heavy stuff. As we get older and “wiser” the heavy stuff seems to get...well heavier and less appealing. And injuries last longer!
I am convinced my Mcintosh 501’s caused my hernia. Probably not as hernias happen over time, but man they are heavy. Like Ronkent mentions, amps are the worse. The 501’s only weigh in at 98lbs but are so darn dense and compact it’s like lifting a boulder!
Effort actually goes into minimizing the weight of the speaker. Each element: panels, braces, driver structures and diaphragms, etc. tries to get as stiff as possible per unit mass, in order to drive resonances higher in frequency where they are harder to stimulate, do less damage and are damped more quickly and effectively. Adding up all the mass-saving elements of the design process, the speaker is considerably lighter than it might have been without such attention.
what a great story. actually i find moving small but heavy things like a big amp to be tough. at least with a speaker, two people can carry it at the same time (if you are lucky enough to have someone to help). I think however, i will not ever own one of those behemoth Magico or Wilson speakers. the 3.7's are mean enough to move around. PS: Boxing up the 2.7's with help from the guy that bought them, was pretty easy.
The 3.7s are kind of difficult to get in the boxes, I've done it twice I think. They're only around 100 lbs, though. I replaced a pair of B&W N802s with the 3.7s and I almost killed myself getting the B&Ws up the basement stairs. My back was messed up for a couple of weeks. I had to get them around a corner and those stairs have a big lip so every stair was hard.
Now that I think about it I have a number of heavy speaker moving memories. I've moved my Velodyne dd18 a number of times and that thing is unpleasant to carry. I bought it as a demo from a closing tweeter when I was in my twenties. I hadn't planned on buying anything but I went into the store to see if there were any screaming deals and there it was for 60% off. I remember when the sales guy was helping me get it in my car I told him I paid the same amount for the sub that I did for the car. You gotta have your priorities straight. I carried it into the basement, out of the basement into an apartment, out of the apartment into another basement, out of the basement and up the stairs in another place. Finally, down the stairs and into the back of the family room where it is now.
Right after college when I was still living with my parents I bought an Infinity HPS1000 from ubid. I carried that 100 lb thing up the fire escape to the third floor. I was excited enough I probably could've done it with broken arms and legs. I had always wanted ATCs but I was never willing to shell out the money for one of the big active three ways. When a pair of 110s came up a few years back for an obscene price I jumped on them. I picked them up at the distribution center with my infant in the minivan. They loaded the pallet with a forklift. I got home and I carried those ridiculously heavy things into the living room to try out. A few months later I dragged them up the stairs to a bedroom that we used as a family room. Then down the stairs and into the family room where they are now.
I bet a lot of us have stories of physical pain we've endured due to our attachment to hearing music reproduced well.
Joseph is one of the very few brands at this point i would consider for new speakers, along with the upcoming PS Audio speakers. But since i just got the 3.7's and they are finally broken in (they sound great), i best quit looking around.
Quite true, Ron. In fact, ironically the much smaller Joseph Perspective speakers I'm contemplating are almost as heave as the 3.7s (just over 80 lbs, vs 91 lbs for the 3.7s).
Fortunately the buyer is arranging pick up from my house, where they will be put on a pallet by the shipping company.
That has still of course left me with packing them in to their boxes. Wow...not easy! It took a loooong time just to get the first one in to it’s box, with some trial and error along the way. After hours, the top totally fitted and taped up madly, it turned out the bottom of the speaker wouldn’t quite fit all the way in to the box. Rob Gillum was very helpful in advising me through this issue to the right solution (which of course, my fault, meant unboxing the damned thing and re-doing everything).
I lost count of the number of times I muttered under my breath "Never another big speaker...never another big speaker...."
(That is, until, some other big speaker catches my eye. But I’m pretty sure this has cured me of getting another big ol’ heavy speaker, as wonderful sounding as the 3.7s have been).
oblgny which ARC model? You have had some sweet gear over the years.I really enjoy reading about all of the gear that has resided in your system. Happy Listening!
Yes, I had a BAT VK3i preamp with that Pass for a little while. (cheap seats model from BAT)
In retrospect I believe I preferred ARC by just a hair. Hard to remember exactly why but IMHO the Audio Research player somewhat “brighter” than the BAT - which I prefer overall. Thiels “ too bright ?” My butt!
Kudos to both manufacturers however in that on the used market they get pretty stable price-wise. I sold both my ARC and BAT preamps at or close to the price I paid for them. (Excluding the cost of the tubes, obviously) Most of the other things I’ve sold here I took a 10-15% depreciation on.
The HapZ1es is a truly excellent piece. I got mine “used” from a fellow member here on the site for $1200 - which they currently fetch now. VERY worth one’s while.
What I enjoyed about it most was it’s simplicity. I didn’t want a “computer” or a computer interface anywhere near my stereo. I had a Bluesound Vault2 prior to that but had difficulty in getting it set up correctly so...off it went. The ease of loading my cd collection was very much appreciated - a cheap Apple usb cd drive did the trick. While the Sony and every other server/player/streamer is slooooow in doing so, the HAP excelled at adding my tunes via WiFi as well. That too was slow but I could slap many tunes there and batch load. Really well made product.
Well, I'm glad to share with you my full (actually very simple!) system, as already said it's composed by Thiel C3.6 loudspeaker, McCormack DNA-2 amp, Sony HAP Z1ES and a handmade (by me) passive volume control, only one input, based on a TKD 2511 series pot with remote control. In order to avoid any kind of interference from the power supply of the pot motor I used a 9V battery to supply it . The internal hd of the Z1ES is loaded with Flac, Wave and DSD files, to me this machine sound superbly but probably not very common between audiophile community, the DAC quality and the very short internal signal path make the trick, it cost around 2000$ but to get the same performance you have to compare it with a dac three four time its value.... in my opinion, furthermore no computer need, just one box solution, great!
Robin - Yes, the SmartSubs are Class D. Jim began working on those amps with a very talented designer at/from Vifa in the late 80s. They put quite a bit of sophistication into those designs, which were done in the early dark ages of Class D. Impedance requirements are less of an issue when the entire amp-speaker is modeled in toto. I use a single SS1 and a pair of SS2s in my studio and love them. I am searching for a good repair solution for them.
I have heard that Jim considered Class D suitable only for bass due to inherent topology constraints. But, a lot has advanced more recently. I have heard recent pro-audio class D amps, and I would not consider such for my music use, just because, no real experience, but an inclination toward a topology with more inherent wow. I am intrigued by what PS is doing (thank you ronkent) . . . a tube input before a mosfet output stage seems potentially great.
Regarding Pass, Nelson is a brilliant designer in my opinion. Pass and Thiel shared equipment and insights beginning in the late 70s. I would expect Kent's opinion about synergy to be extremely well-informed.
good to see you my audiophile friend. Did you run a B.A.T. pre-amp w/ your Pass Labs power amp? Thanks! for chiming in and confirming more positive remarks about Reno HiFi. I knew that you had a dealing or two w/ Mark. Happy Listening!
I also did business with Mark at Reno on two X150.5 amps and to say that he runs a class operation is an understatement.
At the time I had a pair of CS3.5’s. (the amps were purchased at different times) Like the first time I heard my first Thiels (2.2) I barely returned to my listening position before I went “wow.”
From top to bottom that amp just clutched the music in a way no previous amp had managed to; although I forget which preamp I had at that time it was a tube preamp. The 3.5’s had a new lease on life in so many ways. (yes, I employed the bass eq at all times)
i have not heard the X150.8 but I’m sure it’s a fine match.
keep me posted as you take ownership of the Pass Labs. I do not know the closest dealer/retailer from Atlanta either? Mark and Kent are stand up guys and very clearly know these products w/o question. In fact, most audiophiles who are considering Nelson's products, seek out these guys for their expertise alone.
Well after reading everything I can lay my hands on relating to Pass I had pretty much decided on a pair of XA60.8’s. That is until I spoke again to Mark at Reno Hifi and Kent at Pass who BOTH steered me away from the XA series and toward an X150.8. This was not a "gentle" steering that was a rather opinionated steering toward the X series. I’ve never had a retailer before talk me out of spending $10K in favor spending $5K but that what Reno did and also what Kent at Pass did. NOW, I like the idea of a slightly softer, highly dimensional liquid tube like sound and that’s why I was considering the XA series. But both Kent and Mark seemed to think that the X series was the better match for Thiels. I’m a little stunned but I think I’m going to follow their advice and try an X150.8. Anyone else with opinions on the matter please chime in. They did clarify one thing: that if you DO go with the XA series they both though the 60.8 would be right amp in the series for Thiel 2.4s. In the X series, they favored the X150.8. I realize all this sounds quite odd because most of you are saying just LISTEN and see what you like best. Well there's no Pass dealer within even a reasonable driving distance of Atlanta so that's not possible. Yes I COULD order both an x150.8 and a pair of XA 60.8s and return the ones I don't like but we're talking $200 in shipping for each amp, each way so that ads up in a hurray. Still..... might actually do it.
across other Audio forums, I have read about other Thiel owners using Primare gear, as well as, Rogue Audio to excellent effect. Hope this helps. Happy Listening!
I caution that we should distinguish between makes & models rather than commenting on "class D amps" in general. A lot of progress has been made with switching rates and filters so that some class D amps are leagues ahead of other class D amps.
pwhinson - thanks for the insight into how the Bel Canto Ref600s sound with the 2.4s; it seems Class D amps are generally not favored for Thiels but this is the first time I have heard details as to why for any specific make/model, and I have been wondering about these amps specifically because of their generally excellent reviews. I also wonder about the PS Audio Stellar M700s (or even the S300) for the same reason. Anyone else out there with ears-on experience with other Class D amps paired with Thiels?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
