Thiel Owners

Good to see you- thieliste.

Happy Listening!

last_lemming

over on Audio Asylum, seek out, John Elison. For many years he uses an A21 driving his CS 3.7 loudspeakers. He listens to all formats (CD, downloads and Vinyl).  This gentleman has been an Audiophile for 50 years and counting.  Hope this information is helpful.

Happy Listening!

If you guys are looking for a very reasonably priced amp to drive Thiels i would recommend the Sugden SPA-4.Sugden paires really well with Thiel speakers.
https://www.sugdenaudio.com/spa-4-stereo-power-amplifier

I have found the Parasound A21 does an admirable job for my 2.4’s. I wish someone with my same amp and speakers would speak up. I’d love to hear their thoughts. 

jon_5912

agreed- the BP26 is a very fine pre-amp. Interesting combination Bryston and Cambridge.  Happy Listening!

I've found my 3.7s to be power hungry but not so power hungry that I thought I needed a huge, super-expensive amplifier.  I have a pair of Cambridge 840s that I think drive the 3.7 great.  You can get a pair of the current model 851w for 3-4k.  These are, if anything, bordering on too punchy.  The transients are very sharp, bass doesn't lack definition at all.  I've been using these for 8-10 years now with no problems so I can't complain about reliability.  I was listening to a mid nineties hard rock album the other day, it was an excessively punchy, in your face recording and it was hard to listen to because of how jarring the bass was.  The Bryston BP26 preamp contributes to this quality as well, it had me thinking about digging my Musical Fidelity tube buffer up to soften up recordings that are like this.

I'd hate for people to think that you need to spend a mountain of money to get a good setup.  My 2 2s are hooked up to a $900 Yamaha home theater receiver and this is, in my opinion, a great little system that I could enjoy immensely.  That is, if it weren't hooked up to the TV and used mostly for kids' shows.  It just finished cranking out the Moana soundtrack and the bass was not lacking.  I'm sure a bigger amp would be better but it's still very good the way it is.  

https://www.dagogo.com/cambridge-audio-azur-840e-preamplifier-840w-monoblock-amplifiers-review/4/

thielrules

That's correct; however, I could crank up the volume on the 3.5s without distortion. 

Just wanted to make the point that the 3.5 is much easier to drive then all the other thiel speakers if not too loud.

rules - I love the 3.5. My decision to not include it in my upgrade program is based on lack of availability of drivers or a solution for modernizing the equalizer and the inherent bass-response limit for "modern" recordings. 

The product history and back-story is beyond the scope of this post. But the 2.2 in 1990 tested the adequacy of the passive radiator to extend bass response (depth and quantity.) The 2.2 succeeded and Thiel took that path. 

thielrules

Good to see you.  The 3.5 model is very popular here. Thank You for sharing your point of view.  Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Staying tuned my Friend. Looking forward to your power amp discovery.
It is a fun journey.  Happy Listening!

brayeagle

very nice system. Bryston and Thiel have excellent synergy together.
All musical genres sound excellent to outstanding. I have heard the 4B-SST2 on several occasions, in different systems. No slouch at all.

Happy Listening!

I need to comment that the 3.5 are so easily included with all the other models in the 2 and 3 series even though the design and specs are considerably different. The min. Impedance of the 3.5 is 5 ohm, not the 2 or 3 ohm range. All the need for high current is only relevant when the loudness increases above 100 dB near field. As I rarely listen at levels above 75 dB, I can power my 3.5 in a medium room of 14 by 16 with a 4 watt amplifier with deep extended bass.

brayeagle - Yes, the Bryston amps have been part of Thiel's history since early-on. We had 4Bs in the day. I hope to find the right model at the right price.

Todd - you are correct. My needs are somewhat different than "best sound I can get". I hope to assemble a small stable of amps that would be paired with Thiel speakers and are different from each other in sound and topology. And I have to find them at bargain prices.

My old Classe DR-6 x DR-9 pair are known entities to me, heard on lots of speakers over many years. And I've recently added bypass caps and better internal fuses. Their power is moderate and I can use them as monoblocks or in stereo, single or bi-wire to check speaker performance various ways. They function as my humble reference.

The BHKs would provide considerable "tubey" detail and delicacy for comparing the bypass caps, x-checking tonal balance, transient decay, etc. The ear-brain sometimes isolates better with differing signals.

Thiel is often paired with Bryston and I will be shopping for a mid-priced Bryston setup to round out the bipolar landscape. Additionally, I'll be able to cross-check with Rob's Krell FPB-600, MLs, etc. Again, my intent for my working rig is to find amps in the middle price, Thiel-league range which strive for neutrality, but express different strengths than each other. 

General riff for weekend fun:
In speaker design, there is a trap whereby one might think one has a particular problem, but by changing amps, cables, etc. the problem goes away. To the extent the speaker can perform well, the problem actually must exist elsewhere . . . or the speaker is exacerbating some problem in the drive-train. I am looking very closely at those exacerbations, looking for ways to mitigate their deleterious effects without sacrificing any of the clarity or incision inherent in Thiel speakers.

I know this is a very tall order, and I am proceeding cautiously. So far, we have gotten worthwhile results from Mills MRA resistors for short cost increase. Foil feed coils also decrease dynamic distortion. They are quite expensive and will probably be used in an upper level upgrade in conjunction with original Thiel 4-9s wire coils, or to replace more recent Chinese coils. Stay tuned.

Caps are a very big deal. Lots of potential for lots of cost. I believe that the so-called parallel-shunt circuits are practically indistinguishable from series-feed circuits, since the circuit is AC and the driver is fed alternatively from each pole. The big electrolytic banks in the shunts are very expensive to replace, but I want these upgrades to result in "permanent" solutions, which electrolytics are definitionally not.

As an aside:
 I'm driving a pair of CS 2.7s with a Bryston 4BSST2. I have a 14x22x12' living room, and the 4B can drive the 2.7s to very loud volumes without discernible distress or  apparent loss of SQ. (Classical and organ music only - - no jazz, rock or heavy metal)

Tom
Jim Thiel steered me to Bryston with my 3.5s, and I've stayed with the 4B series since. 

Tom,
You wrote,"I was very surprised how much better the Krell FPB-600 performed than the 300." But you are considering the PSaudio BHK-300 pair. Isn't that pretty much in the same, or even slightly less league, as the FPB 300 in terms of power? How about one of the bigger Classemonoblock pairs?
Todd

Thiel's first stable of amps included the Phase Linear 400, designed by Bob Carver. I am interested in how the Sunfire 300 holds up. The design orientation and specs certainly fit Thiel speakers' demands.

Next amp was Nelson Pass' Stasis 500 with world-first (to my knowledge) dynamic bias. Those amps do the trick.

thosb

I originally heard this power amp when new back in 1995, 1996 on Vandersteen 2 series speakers of the same time period. An AMC cd player was connected to it and Audioquest cabling rounded out this system.  The Sunfire had plenty of power to drive the Vandy speakers on Rock music playing as loud as I could tolerate without an degradation in presentation.   It would be interesting to re-visit this beast from Bob Carver to determine if it still holds up well.

Happy Listening!

Continued thanks for all the help, here’s another possibility, Sunfire 300, recently serviced and recapped.  Not thrilled about build quality or age but based on specs and reviews this should do well?  Not looking for an end state by any means, just a low cost improvement over what I have (Krell kav 350iL) and something that will keep me happily listening for a year or two.  

Todd - Hard to imagine, indeed. The x.7 drivers are really something special, plus all the accumulated knowledge / growth in the functionality of the enclosure.

michael - very true. The power hunger is, in my opinion, the primary limiting factor to musical performance for Thiel speakers. I was very surprised how much better the Krell FPB-600 performed than the 300. If a new entity emerges to take Thiel designs into the future, I would explore replacing the voice coils for 4-ohm minimum impedance in the extant motor structures and crossover topologies. I believe the trade-offs would be solidly net-gain. Presently, only a few very expensive amps do a good job. All the complaints like "wimpy mid-bass, unauthoritative deep bass, congested crescendos", etc. are symptoms of inadequate current delivery. Buy the high-current amp. What are you considering? I am considering the PSaudio BHK-300 pair to contrast my Class´DR-9 pair. 

michaeljbrown

Good to see you. Thank You for sharing your story w the Krell power amp.  Hope you are enjoying the CS 2.4 loudspeaker. It is very fine indeed.  Happy Listening!

Tomthiel,
My experience is exactly as you say; Thiels need high current power. My 2.4’s woke up when I hooked up an fpb 300 Krell. I had 2.2’s for years, then 2.3’s and finally 2.4’s. I am convinced that I under powered them all, even with the PM 2000 EAD, which was not a high current amp. I used Krell 250 monos with CS6’s which worked well, 
I think I just talked myself out of a pair of 3.5’s, as I realized I need to get a high current amp, despite the good price for the 3.5’s.

Tom,
Sure. Of course I want my old speakers to find a knowing and happy home. I am thinking currently that I will hang on to them and get the upgrades done, and then sell (unless they turn out to be better than the 3.7, hard to imagine, though...). I’m very curious as to what changes will transpire!
Todd

tmsrdg - for what it's worth, you might offer those 2.2s to this group first. I know it's all vaporware until we have real upgraded speakers for comparison and review, but I anticipate significantly better sound from the new hot-rodded 2.2s.

Is anybody else using or have used a Parasound aA21 on the cA2.4’s. I use a one for years.  I’d be interested in what others thought. Specifically about how the amp and bass response were handled. 

thosb --I used a Classe ca-100 for years with my old 2.2s. Then I bought a Classe ca-300. BIG difference: dynamics, stage, you name it. Couldn't believe I had lived with such low power for all those years! I still have the 2.2s (which I plan to sell), but now run my 3.7s with the Classe ca-300. It sounds terrific, but a teeny congested on orchestral climaxes, stuff like that. So I'm on the lookout for an amp upgrade at some point.

One Thiel-related thought. That amp is rated for 4 ohm minimum impedance. Your CS2.3 rides around 4 ohms over much of its range, but drops to 3 over a broad area from 100 to 1K Hz, and touches 2 ohms at 400-500 Hz where there is lots of musical content. See the Stereophile review. If I were throwing that load at that amp, I would seek real hard-core knowledge and experience. More to the point, I would default to believing Classé, and not burden that amp with that load.

Considering a Classe CAV-150 for my CS 2.3s.  Can't find a pro/definitive review with measurements, but based on everything I have read, this should be a good match, esp with my goal of cleaner treble and a bit more body in the mids.  Not thrilled about buying a ~20 year old amp tho, y'all got any advice for me?

Happy Friday - All.

 Thank you for y’all’s responses. I think what I’m going to do is go ahead and wait for the full kit be complete then I can do it all at once and be confident in my choice thank you!

tomthiel

Thank You for the latest update.  Happy Listening!

Good to see you- silvanik

Happy Listening!

beetlemania

Thank You for the follow on to last_lemming query.
Hope you are well and having fun w Tom on the whole XO project.

Happy Listening!

last_lemming

Good to see you. Beetlemania and tomthiel are working on the latest and greatest cross-over upgrades that will release later this year.
To my ears, I liked the CS 2.4SE by a very slight margin over the stock CS 2.4 loudspeaker. Several differences both internally and externally (cosmetic) exist on the 2.4SE. There are (2) caps on the co-ax feed vis Clarity Cap SAs.  SQ is a little more sublime and sweeter on the 2.4SE.
I could have lived very easily w the stock CS 2.4 model (it is that good).

Keep me posted.
Happy Listening!

Sil - I like your choice. It is where we landed after considerable study.

I and beetlemania will be posting progress on this forum. As the solutions become finalized, we will set up some form of communication through CoherentSource. But for now, just stay tuned here.

tomthiel,
thank you so much providing such informations, already found a supplier here in Italy selling the Mills MRA12 resistors that I'd couple with Clarity Caps CSA series capacitors (waht do you think about my choice?...even this available in my country), so in short time I'll take out the crossovers to check it and to make all the possible improvements, I'm not in hurry to finalize the job, I want really get the best sound is possible from my CS 3.6, in meanwhile I can continue to enjoy the music from my second system based on a pair of Diapason Adamantes speaker (first series) driven by an old but great class A integrated amp, the Sudgen A21A.
I'm already in touch with Rob Gillum at CS because I'm in the process to buy a full set of spare drivers (....just in case!) thus I'll try to get from him the specs of the CS 3.6 XO.
Tomthiel, say me how we can stay in touch because I'm seriously interested on your next 3.6 XO improved design, I don't know, have'u a mailing list or some other way that can let us to know when it's the time?

Again, many thanks and have a nice day to all fellows here.

@last_lemming Soundstage/ultra audio and feel the music both reviewed the SE version albeit they did not directly compare to the standard version. The only difference related to SQ was two capacitors in the coax feed. These are Clarity Cap SAs which Rob Gillum has at Coherent Source Service. I think you will find this a worthwhile upgrade. But these have now been surpassed by two generations of Clarity Caps. 

This is a *really* long thread to slog thru but maybe start January 2018 when Tom Thiel started posting. Mr. Thiel is working on crossover upgrades for legacy Thiels and the CS2.4 is among the first models getting his attention. He is planning Clarity CSAs in the coax feeds, probably with 1% Multicap bypasses. Other caps are also likely to be CSAs including a custom low voltage cap in the shunt positions.

Resistors will be Mills MRA 12s. I replaced my OEM resistors with Mills. Here are my comments copied from elsewhere in this thread: “the Mills has a fuller, richer sound although my perception of this varied from song to song. I heard little, if any, difference on solo trumpet but a pronounced difference on the well-recorded 2L Mozart violin concerto. Guitars and voices were more "full-bodied" on folk-rock, blues, and bluegrass. More “tonally-rich” might be another way to describe it. On a Chesky test recording, percussions were more emotionally engaging, toe-tapping. The Mills also seems to have a bit more texture or, at least, it was easier to hear into the microdynamics. I think this is related to my initial impression of a "lower noise floor”.”

"I hear more bass impact, a more spacious soundstage, and, especially, an ease of presentation. The MRAs even seem to have mitigated a somewhat “glassy” quality in the midrange."

If you are itching to upgrade, get the SAs from CSS and Mills resistors from Sonic Craft. Otherwise, wait a few more months and get the full kit from Tom Thiel/CSS after the upgrade is finalized. 

Guys I need a bit of unbiased advice. That may be a stretch here;)

Im considering upgrading my caps to SE spec on my CS2.4's. 

im sure the SE guys will jump in and say do it but before I do I'd like to hear your thoughts since there is a bit of risk doing this myself and I'm not sure what the benefits will be. 

First off I've never listened and thought - I need more clarity. I have thought need more mid bass. My understanding is frequency response doesn't change but clarity does. 

Ive never heard the SE's either. 

I can can get the parts for $400 bucks, assuming I do the work myself is this upgrade worth it?   Mind you I'm no expert with soldering and will need to YouTube how to solder to bring my skills up to speed.  I can solder two cables together or to a binding post, but I've never soldered to a board. 

tomthiel
Thank You for addressing ish_mail and silvanik's queries.
Hope you had a fun Labor Day Weekend.  

Happy Listening!

ish - I would be speculating as well. I have heard that the SSs stay out of the digital domain, therefore accomplishing their requirements in analog, and probably doing it such as you suggest. I can offer no real insight. However, I am still looking to develop a qualified repair station for SmartSubs. I welcome any input from all of you.

Silvanik - Rob at Coherent Source Service does have a CS3.6 XO schematic which I developed from layouts. Rob determines how he shares that proprietary information. We are developing upgrades to address issues such as you mention. Electrolytic caps do drift and fail over time, and there are more sophisticated solutions available today, especially capacitors. I have bought a pair of 3.6s to put in queue behind the PP, 2 2 and 2.4 presently under development.

We have determined to replace all resistors with Mills MRA-12s at unity value for a stand-alone, cost-effective upgrade. However, further changes to layouts, foil coils and lower ESR caps may require tweaking those resistances at the time of further upgrade. The 3.6 work is scheduled in 2019.

Good to see you- ish_mail
Hope Tom can answer/provide assistance w/ your query.  Happy Listening!

@tomthiel: Thanks for your replies to my questions back on 8-24. Sorry for this delayed follow-up, life is keeping my busy these days.

I’m by no means an expert on analog delay, having only read an article you can find by searching for ‘boss talk: I love analog delay’. The article describes the history and workings of analog guitar delay pedals based on bucket brigade device (BBD) integrated circuits. One currently available example is the Boss DM-2W which can manage adjustable delays up to 800 ms and can be had for a not overly-dear price of $150. 

However, analog delay pedals are prized for the distortion they add to the delayed signal, even after filtering mostly high-frequency noise, and that might seem to disqualify them for high-end audio applications. But clean filtering might be easier to attain for SBIR compensation because that involves isolating and delaying narrow-band, low-frequency signals –– not wide-band guitar tones. Maybe Jim worked out a design along these lines.

Worth repeating: This is unsupported speculation from a true non-expert.

You as well @ja

Happy Labor Day- All.

Deciding between more smaller subs and less larger subs might best be decided by ones room.

Shipping a SS3 from the Midwest to the Californiacoast iis over a grand to do it right. So try to find one near by. They are huge. I had my SS2 shipped from Ohio to CA. Freight is the only way to go. They sent it FedEx, what a joke. It was in one piece just luckily.

Thank You - brayeagle

Hope you are well and enjoying this Labor Day Weekend.  Happy Listening!

Good to see you- audiojan

there are a few owners of the SS series of subwoofers. Hopefully they will chime in their suggestions.  Happy Listening!

I have a SS2.2 in the center between a pair of 2.7s   It's fed via a PX05, as the Integrator was no longer being made.  
 It adds about another perceptible octave to the lower frequencies and to what my grandchildren call the "air" to classical music. A larger one might be better, but I believe an SS1 might not be sufficient to provide the desired LF extension.  YMMV