I heard a pair of TT1 the other days I'm really underwhelmed... Even compared to my CS2.4's, they're falling flat. Just lifeless and boring, not "the window into the recording" I'm spoiled with from the traditional Thiel's. If I can find a pair of CS3.7's, those might by my next upgrade, but otherwise, I'm forced to leave Thiel. Any suggestion what I should be looking at if not for Thiel? |
@tomthiel, not at all! This is what makes this forum so great, people sharing their experience and knowledge. I'm definitely leaning towards a pair of subwoofers. |
In a moment of weakness I was ready to sell my Thiel CS2.4's. Long story short, I moved into a new room in house (which combines my listening room and my home office in an alcove of the room) and no matter what, I couldn't get the Thiel's to sound alive. They sound really clean and clear, but lacking "life"/"flesh & bones"/"joie de vivre".
I played around with the speaker distance, moving them further out from the front wall then I have ever had them and all of a sudden, the center locked into place and they sounded glorious. The bass is kind of missing in action though..
SOOOO.... I will add a pair of subwoofers. I'm playing around with an Epic Legend right now (which I happened to have sitting around) and although I can get it to blend reasonably well, there's times when I hear it. So what would you recommend that blends well? Unfortunately I think Thiel is out since you can't get the crossover very easily. Recommendations please! :-) |
@tomthiel, I've used Mark Levinson ML331's and Krell KAV250 with the Thiels before and the Bel Canto REF500M mono blocks are definitely better than either of those. Especially in the bass and mid-bass. I don't think it's the amp.... I can borrow a few different amps from friends and test your theory, but I don't think that's it.
@jon_5912, the amps are mono blocks already, so I'm already there... :-) |
tomthiel- the speakers are in the larger open space, not in the alcove. My office is in the alcove right off my listening room. The space they're in is about 12' wide and 16' long with acoustic panels on the long wall behind the speakers. The ceiling is tall, but since it's in the attic, it slopes from about 5' up to the peak.
I will add a subwoofer to augment the bass of the Thiel's. |
The rest of the system is PS Audio DirectStream DAC, driving the Bel Canto REF500M mono blocks via Cardas Cross XLR and to the Thiel CS2.4's via Cardas Cross speaker cables. Front end includes Auralic Aries SE to DS via AQ Carbon USB, PS Audio PerfectWave transport via AQ Carbon HDMI (i2s), PS Audio NuWave phono via AQ Carbon HDMI from a Clearaudio Champion. |
I'm going to try to find a Thiel subwoofer, but here's the question... is it worth it to spend a bit more money and get two SS-1? Commonly I've found that stereo subs work much better for music, but Thiel is always different, so I figured I ask.
The room is not that large so I don't think I need two subs for that reason, but I also want to make sure that if I do it, I do it right. |
Need the collective IQ of the group to help me out... would it be better to get a single larger Thiel subwoofer (ex SS3/4) vs two smaller (SS1)? To augment CS2.4’s crossed over with an Integrator in a dedicated listening room |
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I’m setting up my 2.4’s with a SS2 and an Integrator. Ill post my impressions once it’s up and running |
With a room that size, the 1.5's will be too small. You're not going to fill the room sufficiently. The 3.5's requires an amp with LOTS of current and the ability to drive a 4 ohm load with ease. As long as you have that, it'll be very rewarding. And of course make sure you get the bass equalizer, an absolute necessity with the 3.5's |
Got my SS2 setup yesterday and I'm floored how much my CS2.4's improved. I expected "more of the same", but playing with the Integrator and changing from augmented to crossover at 50Hz, the speakers took on a completely new dimension. Even smoother, the sound stage got completely 3 dimensional (you can easily pinpoint instruments not only to the left/right, but height as well and front/back).
I could not be happier with the combination of the CS2.4's with the SS2/Integrator. |
Great read Dave! The 2.4's are truly very special speakers and they are a bit picky with amps and setup. Once you have them dialed in, you are rewarded many times over though.
Another addition to the 2.4's which I'm just scratching the surface on right is is the addition of a Thiel SmartSub. I'm using a Thiel Integrator and crossing the speakers at 50Hz to a SS2. The improvement (of the 2.4's!) was just remarkable. It took everything to another level. I think I can live happily with these speakers for as long as I can make them run (or rather, as long as Rob Gillum has parts for them!)
Let me know how the new caps workout for you. I've been contemplating doing exactly the same upgrade to my 2.4's. |
@last_lemming I'm using Grado cartridges for my vinyl front end. They tend to be a bit darker without losing details. Works really well for me. |
The never ending hunt for continuous improvement goes on... I'm thinking that I may want to change my amps (currently Bel Canto REF500M, which are REALLY nice amps) and I may want to try tubes again. Can you reliably drive a pair of CS2.4's with tube amps?
I'm using an Integrator and cutting at 50Hz before feeding the amps. Should make the speakers slightly easier to drive... A SS2 takes over below 50Hz. |
So I had to test it right away... :-)
The good news is crossed at 70Hz, I still can't locate the SS2, it's just perfectly blended without leaving a trace of it's location. Interesting unintended benefit is that the speakers opened up even more! Guess releasing the amps from the difficult load allows them to really make the CS2.4's sing. :-)
Next step is to find a suitable tube amp to test out. I have a friend with a Audio Research Ref75, just need to convince him to disconnect it and bring it over (usually doesn't take much...). :-) |
Tom, thanks for your input (always appreciate your insight!). It's easy enough for me to test with the Integrator. Just raise the crossover point. Unfortunately, I only have one SS2 (which is PLENTY for the room), but it's worth experimenting.
I'll let you know what I find with the current amps and then I might go ahead and try to borrow a tube amp from friends. |
I'm still a Thiel owner (my entire HT is Thiel and my subwoofer is a Thiel SS2/Integrator), but my main speakers are as of last night Audio Physic Avanti 3. On a whim (well not so much as my buddy has a pair of AP Virgo 2's), I listened to them and was completely blown away. They do everything that I love about the Thiel's equally well, but added a smoothness and that famous AP ability to "disappear".
The only thing I really had to give was the Cherry color of the AP vs. the maple that makes my 2.4's look so stunning. Guess you can't have it all!
It's a shame to keep the 2.4's in storage (well, in a finished attic, so not much of a storage per se), so I will put them up for sale. If I had a second system, I would keep them, but I simply don't have the space for that (I've already claimed a room for my stereo and the basement for the HT, so I can't ask the wife for yet another space...) |
@pwhinson Thiel's subwoofers with an integrator is absolutely magical. Makes the 2.4's sound like massive speakers while cleaning everything a notch or two |
Put my Thiel CS2.4 back in rotation and wow! They are truly amazing speakers. In some regards, besting my Audio Physic Avanti 3.
I'm fortunate enough to have 2 pair of speakers of this caliber that I can swap in and out at will. Yes, a bit of work, but so worth it!
The Thiel's can disappear like no others when you give them the best recorded material. It's almost scary at times! |
The best cables I've ever used are my Cardas Clear Beyond speaker cables. Yes, expensive, but the difference from Golden Reference was staggering. Took the speakers to a new level.
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The REL S812's are seriously impressive. They can flat out disappear when needed, yet will strike when requested. They're definitely not the old slow HT subwoofers of the past years. With that said, they transformed by HT as well as they added space (which I never thought a subwoofer would do!) to everything. Remarkable to say the least!!!!
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