Thiel Owners
I’m struggling to make a decision now that my pre/pro is dead. Lately, I’ve become interested in digital delivery, both storing media via a NAS and streaming. I still have a CD collection but the digital aspect I find extremely convenient, especially as it relates to new music. I don’t mind investing in equipment that would last a while, such as my 2.7s, Bryston 28Bs, Alpha Core AG3 speaker cables, and Straighwire ICs (since I don’t see myself replacing any of these). However, I don’t want to spend much money on things that change quickly, like certain technology and digital standards. What do people think I should invest in and which things should I stay way from. For example, do DACs change often? If so, should I invest in a good preamp but get external DACs that I can swap out as technology changes? Appreciate everyone’s thoughts. |
After several comparison I ended that I’m more happy listening to my cd’s ripped into the hd of my player Sony HAP Z1 ES than directly from my cd player/external DAC . IMHO the Thiel CS 3.6’s are stellar with this combo, (thanks also to the beautiful pairing preamplifier Doge 8- McCormack DNA-2)crazy fine details, amazing bass and clear treble, can’t be happier for the money invested. I’ll let them never go, because of this I invested some money to get a full set of spare drivers from Rob, want sleep with not worries! |
jazzman7 By and large, I agree; however, for classical music nuts, there are only two full-catalog choices for streaming, viz., Idagio and Primephonic. Only Idagio has a desktop app, so that would limit me to Idagio. Guess I'm antedeluvian, as I don't mind getting up after an hour or so of listening to switch CDs. (Good for the acing bones!) My son, two daughters and five grandchildren are committed to streaming, and they love the capability. But they're into jazz, rock, and synthetic stuff. Two have good AV setups. "Classical ??? Isn't that stuff a little old fashioned?" Oh Well. George |
Streaming versus physical media: i stream at work, but for serious listening at home with my big system, it is compact discs all the way. I do not know about others, but for me, part of the pleasure of this hobby is building a collection of music and then choosing what to play. FDR collected stamps, I collect cds and can never have enough. When i get one i do not like it goes to the used record store. It is all fun. What a wonderful hobby. |
Different strokes for different folks. There is still very much a place for physical media. But all the same, in my opinion streaming from a subscription service like Tidal or Qobuz has its place, especially with respect to music discovery. I find streaming to be a complimentary arrangement, not so much a replacement for physical media, although for some folks it can be. |
jafant, Still alive and kicking, and enjoying my system more each day. IMO, the 4B cubed is an excellent choice for the 2.7s. My "listening room" is 16 x 24 x 12, with a large opening on one long side to another room. However, I don't play my music at ear-shattering levels, so there's no clipping on near-instantaneous changes in volume. The BP-26 has gone to live with my son, so the 17 cubed is the preamp. No on yet has convinced me streaming is the way to go, so the classical CD collection is getting a workout. George |
+1 re sdl4's recommendation on a power cord for the PS Audio Stellar Pre/Dac, especially if you use the DAC; I use a PS Audio PWD as a volume control/DAC and was happily surprised when I replaced the stock cord with a Cardas Clear M and the SQ improved. Not dramatically but enough to make the cost worth it. Seems like many believe that EVERYTHING matters for digital equipment. |
tomthiel, I completely understand your perspective on power cables. I've been a cable skeptic until recently and have mostly avoided diving down that deep black hole myself. And I don't want to get a big cable discussion going in this thread. But since you brought up the shielding issue in power cords, I'll just mention the limited info I've been told by cable advocates. What I've been told is that a shielded power cord is a good idea for DACs and other components that generate a lot of digital noise, but that shielding is not always necessary (and possibly not even desirable) for cords on power amps. The Forte F3 cords have some shielding, but Audience says it's designed to work well even on high-power amps. That claim may just be marketing, of course. Maybe sometime, when your mind is calm and not overburdened with thoughts of too many other more important things, you'll borrow a low-cost high-value power cord like the Forte and give it a try on your DAC/Pre. For a guy who can hear differences between caps in a speaker crossover, a quality power cord may offer you a few interesting sonic surprises. On a more important issue, I'm really looking forward to the point when your upgrade kit for the 2.2 is ready for distribution. Best of luck with that effort! |
SDL4 - Thanks for the tip. I have not gotten my mind around power cords except in one way. My Electromagnetic Field Meter registers large and variable EMF fields around all the equipment. It seems possible that shielding those fields via a shielded cord might clean up the supply signal. But I don't even know whether Audio Power Cords use a shield. So, I am ignorant of the power cord debate and don't have the mental resources to wade in; I'll stay with Prof on the sidelines. But, someday I'll give something a try, and that is likely to be your Forte F3. Thanks again. |
tomthiel, Hope the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre sounds great in your system. If you decide you want to try a low-cost power cord upgrade for the DAC/Pre, the Audience Forte F3 has worked out well for me. This cord is a relative bargain that was highly recommended by the guy who helped me at the Cable Company. They are offering B-stock at $149, and this cord is also available for $125 through Parts Connexion. In my system, the Forte F3 made the sound smoother, with a lower noise floor and deeper, tighter bass. I noticed more effect when using the cord on the DAC/Pre than on my amps. It might be a worthwhile investment if you decide you want to try an inexpensive power cord upgrade. |
@arvincastro Regarding Class D amps - I have a pair of the Bel Canto REF600M's. I've tried them on my 3.6's and 2.7's. I didn't care for them when compared to the Krell TAS (3.6's) and Bryston 7BST parallel mode (2.7's). I've since changed cables and am going to listen to them again in both systems. Currently they are running a pair of B&W CDM1SE's in an office system and are amazing for that build. |
tomthiel, I can't say that I have done extensive preamp comparisons, but I have had a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC in my system for the last 6 months, and I like it a lot. The Gain Cell DAC/Pre replaced a Bryston .5B preamp I had used for many decades. At the same time I replaced the preamp, I also replaced my Adcom 555-II power amp with the Stellar M700 monoblocks. Most of my listening has been with both the Stellar DAC/Pre and the M700s in the system, but I did briefly listen to the DAC/Pre feeding the Adcom amp and driving my Thiel 2.2 speakers. Replacing the Bryston preamp with the Stellar gave me sound that was much more open and dynamic than what the Bryston had been providing. Some of this effect may have been due to the DAC in the Stellar unit since I had been previously using a Parasound Z-DAC to feed the Bryston pre for either streaming or CDs. Ignoring my unsystematic attempt to judge the effect of the Stellar DAC/Pre on its own, I can say that the "Stellar stack" as a system provides a much more alive and real sonic picture than my old gear. I have read some reviews that have described some "tube-like" characteristics coming from the Stellar gear. I don't have much experience with modern tube gear, but the Stellar components do not have a colored tube sound that some listeners enjoy. To me, the Stellar gear sounds neutral and musical. It provides good detail and transparency without being overly bright or fatiguing. I've also enjoyed the enhancement in bass impact and control, although I can't really separate out the effects of the preamp from the monoblocks. In listening to several different interconnects (both single-ended and balanced) between the Stellar DAC/Pre and M700 amps, I've found the Stellar gear to be very revealing of differences between interconnects. As an older guy who has grown tired of walking across the room just to adjust the preamp volume, I absolutely love having a remote control unit with the Stellar DAC/Pre. As far as the issue of the Gain Cell DAC/Pre being an affordable choice, I purchased the DAC/Pre directly from PS Audio as part of a system that also included the M700 monoblocks. The system price from the factory is $3999 as listed on the PS Audio website, but they allow a discount of up to $1200 for any gear traded in on that package. They actually credit you with the original new retail price of the gear you are trading in - not just the current used price of the gear. So I was able to trade in an old Denon CD player and get the "Stellar stack" of DAC/Pre and M700s for under $2799, which is an incredible bargain IMO. Buying the DAC/Pre alone is listed as $1699 at regular price, with a trade-in allowance of up to $510, so you can get the DAC/Pre for under $1200 from PS if you have something you want to trade in. As ronkent indicated, though, some current dealers may offer even lower prices given the upcoming elimination of the PS dealer network. |
Guys - I would like to hear your opinions regarding the PS Stellar Gain Cell Pre and DAC for possible purchase as an affordable alternative to my sole Classé DR-6 preamp. Among my requirements of detail and so forth is that neutrality is very important to my work. Please advise and comment. Thanks, Tom |
hey Guys, for anybody interested in buying PS Audio gear, now would be a great time. PS Audio just announced they are going factory direct and there will be no more retail dealers. That means the dealers are going to be heavily discounting the line to clear out inventory. Three big boys would be:Music Direct, UpScale Audio, and Underwood Hifi. Of course there are more but those are the big ones that i can think of. This is from an email I received from Underwood: Earlier this week PS Audio announced that they are going factory Direct and no longer selling thru US dealers. Therefore, after September 15th we will no longer be able to sell PS Audio products. PS pricing will stay the same once they are direct and they will not drop prices once this move is made. |
unsound... Yes, I live in a three house court so even local traffic is a rarity. Right now the walls are an offish-antiquey white which is almost necessary because it can get close to pitch when conditions are right. I will go just a tad more deeper in hue, a light cream methinks. I sit facing a wall where the stereo is that runs from 9 feet to 17 feet at the apex - that’s a LOTTA wall and that’s a LOTTA white. It hasn’t any effect sonically speaking, but listening in natural evening illumination is just...cool. |
beetlemania... Yes, considering that they had been in a very small apartment the overall condition of the cabinets is very good. There are a few very minor surface scratches, a swirl or two from a cloth wipe, but nothing that will concern me while listening from twelve feet away. (We measured.) They’re black lacquer finished, so the imperfection on the bottom of one speaker should be a simple cosmetic job. Yesterday morning my buyer on the Maggie MMGi’s showed up and we had the opportunity to do a quick comparison. He was readily familiar and appreciative of Maggies as I am, but had never heard a Thiel before. To repeat the obvious, Thiels are Maggies with more bass. The 2.4’s filled in the bass at my preferred and conservative listening level, but we both felt that both delivered in spades the accurate and articulate mids and highs. Oddly enough, I found that the Maggies had a more defined “sweet spot”, quite small but more dialed in than the 2.4’s. It was an enjoyable comparison to say the least. I have the 2.4’s sitting atop a pair of maple blocks I had laying around - which was what the Maggies were on as well. This raises them another 3 inches. This is probably speaker heresy of some sort, but I compared listening to them on and off the blocks and, well, couldn’t hear any significant difference. I already have a series of holes in the floor on either side of the equipment cabinet from previous spikes, so I’m content to leave them on the blocks. For now, anyway. So typical of many Thiel owners whom I’ve purchased from, the seller expressed he was relieved to know his were finding “a good home.” This was not the first time I’ve heard that. It will possibly be the last time because there ain’t nuttin’ making me sell these off. Down the road when and if I possess the scratch to consider the crossover upgrade I probably will. For now, mated to this absolutely excellent Belles 250i Integrated amp I could not be happier with the return of Thiel to my house. I will remember my previous statement that Thiels are an investment, not a purchase THIS time. These are going into my will. |
there are pairs of 2.2's and 2.4's on audiogon if anyone missed them and needs a new speaker. https://www.audiogon.com/listings?q=thiel |
oblgny Good to see you back in a pair of Thiel Audio loudspeakers, CS 2.4 model, no less. I hope to schedule a Transparent demo in the Fall. I really want to hear the Gen5 offerings. The MM and MM2 series are still very fine and viable. Keep me posted as you massage the CS 2.4 into your room/system. Happy Listening! |
@oblgny, Sounds like you have a nice quiet and dark listening environment. I could say the same, except the wildlife trips the spot lights from time to time. The meters can be worse than just annoying. I can't tell you how many times I've seen new amps with stereo meters being fed mono sources (yes, we swapped cables and components to be sure) where the different channel meters varied wildly. I remember someone posting here on Audiogon about 10 years ago, re: Pass Labs quoting an above $400 cost for one new meter on an X250. Back then X250's were about $6K new. That's quite a $% for a superfluous part. I can only imagine what it might cost today. Good luck with your new (for you) Thiel's! |
Updated my virtual systems page... Picked up the 2.4’s from seller in NYC. It was a typical mid-August summer afternoon in the city, about 94 degrees with oppressive humidity. 3rd floor walk-up, tight stairwell, 5 landings and about 100 stairs. (At least it felt that way.) Original owner, all paperwork, manual, floor spikes, AND a spare midrange/tweeter driver! That wasn’t mentioned in his eBay listing. Very cool beans. Did my bestest 62 year old he-man imitation and picked those 70 pound cabinets up by myself, taking a break on every other landing to catch my breath and wipe the sweat from my brow. Total travel time, payment, removal, and set up in me house? Four hours. (I once sold off a pair of CS3.5’s because I found them to be “too heavy” to futz around with. Umm, these 2.4’s weigh EXACTLY the same.) But the slightly taller cabinets make futzing just a touch simpler. So here I am, back with another excellent pair of Thiel loudspeakers once again - this time for keeps. I ain’t kidding. |
I continue to be happy with and amazed by the dispersion characteristics of my 2.7s. Having been playing them for several guests, all of us seated along the listening sofa, the tonality remains so consistent from seat to seat, and they still manage to image for everyone. They also sound particularly good from outside the listening room in my hallway. My speakers face the front of the house, and when outside that room down the hall, that puts you with the speakers both in another room and facing away from you. My Spendor speakers and my old Thiel 02s are more directional, so they sound more dulled from behind the speakers or outside the room. Especially the Spendor speakers sound more like "speakers" in hearing more of the back-radiated sound/port. With the 2.7s they continue to sound so open tonally you'd still think they were facing you. They sound outside the room like they do inside the room - the same sense of "no speaker there, just the sound occurring in the space." It's quite fascinating actually. |
Hello batmanfan! I have a pair of Thiel CS 2.4s powered by a Bryston 3B ST fronted by a Bryston BP20 preamp. Speaker cables are Transparent Music Wave Super Gen MM. Interconnects are Kimber Hero XLR. Almost all of my listening is in the digital domain (only exception is an old Rotel analog tuner). Although I have a very good CD player, a Bryston BCD-1, I rarely use it. All of my CDs have been ripped as uncompressed FLACs. My listening is via either these ripped CDs or via TIDAL. My digital supply chain consists of the following: Hard wired ethernet connection (albeit utilizing Netgear powerline ethernet adapters) into Melco N1A. All of my FLACs reside on the Melco which functions as a NAS, a streamer, and not unimportantly as an ethernet line conditioner. Melco feeds Chord Qutest DAC via Curious USB cable, as well as a Bluesound Node 2i hooked up to Melco's outbound player port via Audioquest Cinamon ethernet cable. The Bluesound player feeds the Qutest via Tributaries Coax and my older Bryston BDA-1 DAC via Audioquest Vodka Toslink. I typically stream directly from Melco when listening to my ripped CDs, and employ Bluesound Node when either streaming from TIDAL or streaming to multiple rooms (have Bluesound kit in 3 other rooms in the house). Chord Qutest feeds preamp via Audioquest Black Mamba II RCAs. I am very happy with this setup. Have yet to go Roon, but definitely considering it. Thinking about acquiring Roon Nucleus, at which point I'd have Melco feed Nucleus from its ethernet player port, and then have Nucleus feed Chord Qutest directly via USB. |
unsound... I’m pretty much with you on the meters thing, but for reasons including your opinion and others. I kinda enjoy music a little bit more when my living room is practically dark, illuminated only by the evening outside the window. My neighborhood doesn’t have streetlights, is heavily treed, so it can get pretty dark under the right conditions. I sit 10-11 feet away from my speakers and the last thing I want to look at is a miniature replication of a city scape sitting atop my equipment cabinet. The Belles integrated I am enjoying now has but two small LED’s on its faceplate, one for on/off, one for mute. Using either one makes it disappear. Noice. It’s kinda like the way new automobiles are. I see something “new” added to the “experience” and I immediately think, “Oh, that’s gonna be the first thing to break.” I had a sedan with a/c’d seats. Nice. Broke. Expensive to fix. One with a heated steering wheel - very nice touch. Broke. Damn. On a somewhat similar note - why do some manufacturers position the on/off button on the rear of the cabinet? Drives me crazy... |
Thanks @holco. Never heard of Audio-gd, but am open to taking a look and will look at their products. The price is really reasonable. Has anyone else here used their preamps or DACs? Thank you for the suggestion, jafant. My brother is starting to get into the hobby, despite my warnings of endless tweaking and empty pockets, hehe, and I may end up giving him my 9000es. (Will tell him to stock up on parts.) Been looking at going all digital, but I don't think I've done it right--the SQ seems weak. Not sure if it's because of the Anthem DAC, or perhaps the source. I've been using my Mac Mini and ripping CDs at ALAC (Apple's lossless codec). Perhaps the SACDs just sound so much better? I didn't think there is an audible difference, so I'm thinking it's something else. Either that, or its just the synergy of the 9000es SACD player with my system. Will continue tweaking. For those who have gone all digital and find the results acceptable (or preferable to physical discs such as CDs or SACDs), what have you used from source to the amp? The Thiels are famous (or notorious) for being very revealing, so it's most likely sounding out a weakness in my chain from source to amp (don't think it's the amp to speaker). Appreciate everyone's thoughts. |
beetlemania... Hahaha. Good reply. I just sold my Maggie MMGi’s off here on the site in just 3 hours. Took a single re- list to sell the Audio Research DSi200 Integrated sole, but that was $1300 greater. C’est la vie. What my “settling down” means is that I am not going to chase the Audio dragon any longer. I had some fine setups in the past, but my curiosity - and available funds at the time - had me buying/selling too much stuff to mention. My happenstance discovery of the Belles integrated is what compelled me to actively seek a pair of Thiels. I moved from Maggies to Thiels before so I know in advance this time around that I will have an extraordinarily good setup - and all for under $3K. I’m picking up the CS2.4’s tomorrow afternoon. The guy who purchased my Maggies might be picking them up later in the day. Talk about timing... In order for me to get the same sort of articulation and accuracy I am getting from the Belles I would have to spend much, much more. A LOT. I been dere, I done that. I learned. I am realllllllllly looking forward to hearing this amp sing through the Thiels. |
batmanfan It takes a while for the BP17 cubed to break in. Although Bryston runs each one for 100 hours, I ran mine for another 100-150, as it gradually improved over time. I exchanged a BP-26 for the 17 cubed. No contest. Disclaimer: I listen to classical music, with country and bluegrass a significant minority. No synthetic music or hard rock. |
