Thiel Owners

The CJ Premier 12 amps are still expensive to buy used and expensive to re-tube when necessary. I would think a Premier 11 (the stereo version) would be a very nice substitute, and a fantastic amplifier to hear with the CS3.7s, also. I love CJ and I love ARC. I am currently using Audio Research Classic 120 mono amps with my CS3.7. They make a simply magical combination. But I am sure a CJ Premier 11 (or pair of Premier 12)  would be stiff competition.

Jim dismissed the pluses because he couldn’t get past the minus of insufficient deep bass control.

Understandable, especially from his designer perspective.

The reason I’ve held on to the Premier 12s all this time is because Michael Fremer’s old stereophile review nailed the character of these amps. They have that mid-band lushness, upper frequence glow/sparkle/aliveness and yet produce taught and controlled sounding bass with every single speaker I’ve ever owned. I never feel compromised with "tube bass" in terms of a flabbiness or lack of control. As I’ve written, the 3.7s on my CJ amps had the most controlled and coherent bass I’ve ever heard.

We usually had a latest CJ and ARC model in our listening room.

I have very limited experience with CJ but ARC is great stuff, IMO. If I wasn't an Ayre-head, I would probably have ARC (or Aesthetix or a John Curl design).

There are one or two Thiel owners here on A'gon who use ARC to drive CS2.4 and, even, CS3.7 using ARC.

Prof - my personal AHA moment was somewhere around 1981, possibly with the introduction of the original CS3 at Chicago CES. We used Tim DeParavicini's Esoteric Audio Research pre and power amp. I was dumbfounded. Jim dismissed the pluses because he couldn't get past the minus of insufficient deep bass control. BUT, I never really heard such magic again, probably because I got so deeply immersed in factory-building that I lost track of the musical experience.

We usually had a latest CJ and ARC model in our listening room. All those amps seemed to vanish before the bankruptcy auction except the Krell FPB-600 in Jim's lab.

Very cool Tom!

I first heard Thiels on tubes at CES - in the VAC room where Kevin Hayes was using Thiel CS6s.  I was completely entranced by the combo.  Not being able to afford VAC and already having good experience with lower priced CJ amps, I sprung for the big CJ Premier 12 monoblocks, tried them with the CS6 and there was that magical sound I'd heard at the show.

But then, I tend to prefer certain tube amps on most speakers.  I've never been able to settle in for very long with an SS-powered system.

Jafant and Prof - I don't know if it is well known that Thiel and CJ had a very close relationship to the extent of many visits as well as trade of equipment, ideas and methodologies. We used each others' equipment both publicly and privately as well as cross-polinated ideas and solutions. Although Thiel generally used SS equipment at shows for its neutrality, dependability and bass control, we used tubes quite a bit for development. Our critical listening / explorations most often were carried out with CJ and ARC amplification with the SS amps for verification.

In my first 20 years time-frame the CJ x Thiel relationship was by far the closest peer interaction that we had. Kathy and Dawn stay at Bill's house in DC in their travels there.

Prof - I only saw the setup in the factory and did not witness a demonstration. But John's explanation did not include a blind component, rather it was a live vs recorded comparison tool. The "band" would play and be recorded live to listeners, and then that recording was played back immediately to the same listeners in the same place - very few uncontrolled variables.

I have read about show demos with a guitarist, etc. between two speakers who may or may not have been playing the strings as the recording of the previous verse may or may not have been coming through the speakers. That's second-hand hearsay, but the boldness itself is impressive.

arvincastro

Thank You for addressing the Cabling queries. 
Happy Listening!

catalysis

Thank You for the suggestion to bighempin's phono stage query.

Any other Panel members wish to recommend their suggestion(s)?

Happy Listening!

bighempin

Good to see your posts again.  Stay tuned for our Vinyl experts to chime in on your query. I know that you have had a fun Summer.

Happy Listening!

arvincastro

Good to see you back. Hope that your are well and enjoying Summer. It is winding down fast.

Happy Listening!

prof

Yes- I did test w/ my Thiel speakers. Not a bad little system at all.
The CJ reference killed it as well as the Ayre Twenty Series.

Happy Listening!

Tom, how did it work exactly?  Would the subject (listener) first hear the live band, and then that was recorded and A/B'd somehow with the live musicians without the listener knowing which was which?

Prof - I saw his live vs recorded setup, although never witnessed a test. His large anechoic chamber had one wall that opened onto a larger space. The combined space had a pair of speakers set-up and could accommodate a chamber or jazz ensemble positioned between the non-operative speakers. He was equipped to record (at that time it was direct to DAT) which he would then play back without any one or anything moving. The set up was beyond reproach and something like what I envisioned for Thiel in my dreams, but we were never flush enough to implement. Not shy at all, but his products delivered. I only heard them there at his factory around 1995, which was first-generation early goods. I'd like to hear a pair of SC-Vs or VIs.

Wonderful post Tom!  Thanks.

I used to follow J. Dunlavy's claims and met him once at an audio show.He sure wasn't shy about his opinions :-)

Also he was one of the very few speaker designers claiming his speakers could replicate the sound of real voices and instruments, and claimed he often did these live vs reproduced tests. 

Thosb - Since you haven't gotten a response to your Dunlavy / Thiel query, I'll throw in some observations. I have not directly compared the two brands, but I do have some experience with Dunlavy which might be relevant. In my consulting work after Thiel Audio, Dunlavy was among my contacts, where I saw first-hand how they approached the work. I would call John's approach nearly identical to Jim's, with Dunlavy having more investment in equipment, patents and broader background in the art.

The company started as Duntech in Australia where John D. worked in the high-energy antenna realm, holding multiple patents - that company had considerable government support as they piggy-backed the loudspeakers into the antenna infrastructure and contracts. They moved to Colorado Springs as a private enterprise for more direct access to the North American market, with the financial backing of John's patent attorney as partner. Their facility was enviable - including two anechoic chanbers and considerable interactive production measurement / analysis tools. Every speaker was developed and tested with multiple / near, mid and far-field mic arrays. Their crossover layouts concentrated on stray electromagnetic interactions. They were net first order, like Jim's with similar attention applied to similar methods and outcomes.

Another departure was their cabinets, which is why I was there. They allowed vibrating panels (like British monitors), incorporating those resonances into the sound sculpture, and ignoring the resulting time-domain slurring. Similarly, the square edges introduced diffraction, which seemed of little concern to them. However, I see that more recent models paid considerably more attention to those aspects which I had assessed as weaknesses.

I note in the reviews, that John Dunlavy (a rather commanding presence) pushed back very effectively against the misleading close-miked measurements by Stereophile. Thiel took a "gentleman's attitude" and rarely if ever commented publicly on the misrepresentations of such measurements.

Dunlavy aimed for higher retail prices against lower manufacturing costs than Thiel for a solid profitability, and thoroughly well executed designs. Dunlavy seemed a one-man-show on my visits, much like Thiel. The ability to carry on without the founder's focusing vision and unique talents is very difficult. There are only a few products beyond Thiel which interest me and which I recommend when asked. Dunlavy is one of them.

As far as phono stages go, it’s sometimes possible to pick up a used Manley Chinook at the top end of, or just a bit over, the budget you mention. This is what I run and works fantastic with any speaker, including my 3.5s. It’s basically Manley’s top of the range $8500 Steelhead model without a lot of the bells and whistles. Tubes in it as well so that ticks one of your boxes. Also has very versatile settings to accommodate just about any mm/mc/mi cart.

Jafant,

Interesting CJ combo.  I have the CJ Premier 16 LS2.  Were you able to bring them home to try with the Thiels?

(I was just kidding about the cables  - no need to waste your time telling me what cables you tested).

@ bighempin

From my personal experience of hearing my friend's all Vincent system, I can say that their tubed & hybrid phono preamp models sound great...way better than their reasonable prices would suggest.  They're built extremely well & look good to boot.  He has their PHO 701 which is tubed-based, has an external power supply & can be switched for MM/MC.  Costs about half of what you'd think it should, especially after you hear it.  They will easily fit in your budget range...worth a try.

Another contender I could recommend is the Lehmannaudio Black Cube.  Had one in my system for a little while and can say that it very transparent and extremely quiet, but may sound a bit lean depending on the system it's put in.

Good luck!

Arvin

Hello all!

I just wanted to chime in on the cable discussion as I am a bit of an outlier as well.  Like several of you, I am using Audioquest RCA interconnects (Golden Gate) on my front-end sources (ARC PH-3 tube phono preamp, Bluesound Vault 2 networked streamer, Denon 2900 SACD player and Denon VL-12 turntable) to my ARC LS-7 tube line-stage.  However, from the LS-7, I swapped out the Golden Gates and am now using MIT Terminator RCA interconnects to my ARC D240 MKII solid-state amp. 

I had been using a custom speaker cable set composed of Gotham SPK-8 cable, but replaced those with MIT AVT-3 speaker cables.  I was looking to diminish some harshness I perceived in my system and MIT was suggested to me by several other enthusiasts.  I do know that with the MIT in my system, the harshness I used to have has been pretty much eliminated and I do get a sense of a more cohesive sound...not a loss of resolution mind you, but less analytical than before if that makes sense.

While I cannot prove that their "poles of articulation" tech works, I will simply say that I do find the switch to MIT to be a noticeable and favorable change in that I get a better sense of musicality than I did before. 

Hope you are all enjoying the summer!

Arvin

Hello Fellow Thiel Owners!

I was hoping you guys could help me out with some recommendations for a phono stage. My current system is a PS Audio BHK signature preamp, BHK 250 Amp, PS Audio DSD Jr DAC, MoFi Ultradeck Turntable with a MoFi master tracker cartridge, Thiel 3.7 speakers, PS Audio power cables and a mix of used interconnects from Ron_Kent.

I was hoping to be in the $500-$1500 price range(I don’t mind going a little over or under I really just don’t want to spend more than I spent on the turntable). I asked my local dealer, who sold me my turntable, about the MoFi Phono and he said it was several levels beneath my PS Audio gear(I didn’t ask him what that meant for my turntable but I wondered). He suggested I go with the PS Audio preamp called the Sprout($500) as it has a phono stage in it but he also admitted he knew nothing about it. The new PS Audio Phono is around $2500 MSRP, which is more than I want to spend.

Lastly, I thought it might be fun to get a phono with some tubes in it but it is not a must. Do you vinyl guys out there have any recommendations for a phono stage that might pair well with my system?

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Beetle - I took your advice and ordered Cardas internal wire, same as yours. Not yet had the opportunity to compare. Thanks for the nudge.

In my wire investigations I have learned that 6-9s wire is nearly extinct and even 5-9s is practically unaffordable. As the world changes toward miniaturization, highly complex component circuitry and wireless data and signal transmission, wire is less critical. It seems that some of the best sources (both audio and aerospace) are using 4-9s with careful casting, drawing, gauging and coating technologies. To your question, Thiel maintained a steadfast commitment to using the best wire available

Hi TomI probably already shared this in a PM, but I found the Cardas hookup wire and binding posts to make a really nice improvement in SQ. In fact, I would rank the improvement as tied with the Mills resistors for second biggest improvement after replacing all caps and coils. I hope you are able to audition Cardas as you work on the R upgrades.

That said, my experience aligns with with Prof in that $$$ AC cabling does not yield a corresponding improvement in SQ. As always, YMMV.

I have a pair if Thiel 2.2. Paired with McCormack DNA 1.0. Oppo 105D Tidal streaming. The SQ is excellent.

thosb - vertical lobing is a central draw-back from first order crossovers. Your ear must be at the right height to receive proper integration. The closer to the speaker, the more critical is the correct spot. Target design was 35" at greater than 8'. (I heard that 35" migrated to 36".) My studio doesn't have a couch or living room seating and the lowest setting for my adjustable chairs gives 42". My solution uses a drywall square - a big aluminum T. I clamp it to an inside speaker face with the long arm centerline at 36" off the floor and tilt the speaker until I am sighting straight down the square's long arm. Vertical tilt is much more important than toe-in due to the vertical arrangement of multiple sound sources. Coaxes are more forgiving than individual drivers, but still interact with the woofer.

FYI: part of the mechanical upgrade is a threaded front spike for easy tilt adjustment. 

Right back at ya jafant!

Did y'all see the thread re the interest in resurrecting Dunlavy?  Curious if anyone can compare the Dunlavy sound to Thiel?  Geoff Poor was the first guy who explained the importance of time/phase coherence to me, he was also involved in Dunlavy I think, I ended up with used Thiels rather than the new Maggies he had me listen to, but hey the concept stuck.  And I bought a BAT amp.  

Also, what about Coincident speakers relative to Thiels?  What piqued my interest here was system posted by cal3713 (who also had some words of encouragement for me to try to upgrade my XOs after reading the erudite discussions on this thread - y'all have fans out there!), he went from 2.4s to Coincidents.  Just wondering what other time/phase coherent speakers sound like.

Happy Friday! All

I am an outlier here,  but i have had great success with sound using MG Audio speaker cables between the PS BHK amp and the 3.7's.  My friend Bob who has a system virtually identical to mine is much more dedicated to auditioning multiple speaker cables and interconnects. He uses some version of the Nordost speaker cable, and Cardas for the main interconnects. 

As usual I am impressed at the level of discourse on this thread, entertaining, educational, and consistently civil despite differences in opinions experiences and ears - bravo!  

Probably a pedestrian observation, but a new chair made me realize how important ear level relative to coax driver is.  Long story short - new chair, whitewashed sound, bummer by chair is here to stay, took me a couple days but realized the added elevation made a HUGE difference.  Tilted the 2.3s up by a full 0.5” to compensate and wow, back to the good place.  Interesting to realize that the Stereophile measurements agree with my ears.  Happily my listening skills appear to be improving!  Full details - new chair puts ears 4” higher, from 32” to 36”, and the coaxs are at 32”.  Ears are 8-9’ from speakers.  

Jafant

Your Cable recommendations are always appreciated ;-)

Which CJ gear have you owned?

prof
I found Audience and AudioQuest cabling sonic matches for Conrad Johnson gear.  Hope this helps.
Happy Listening!

brayeagle
Good to see you. Hope you are well and enjoying Summer. It is almost over for 2019.  You own a very nice system as well.
Happy Listening!

8th-note
My pleasure. Enjoy reading this thread and the Music!You own a very nice system.

Happy Listening!

George - I'm out the door till Friday, so just a quick response. Thank you. I suspect a lot of audiophiles envy you . . . listening to music for god's sake! I see our job as equipment providers as serving just that desire, to hear the whole envelope. The devil is in the details and turns out to be a big challenge.

I'll eventually muddle through. Thanks again.
Tom

Hi Tom, 

I've grown up listening to classical music, beginning with RCA Victor Red Seals played on a wind-up Victrola. Having been in the Air Force and later traveling for my company, I've been fortunate to attend many  concerts and operas in the US and in  Europe over a 64 year period. I'm a classical music and opera nut.

What do I listen for?
I listen to the totality of the performance,  not trying to pick apart the individual elements. I want to hear what the composer is trying to tell me. 
However, if clearly discernible elements pop up, here's what I can evaluate: I Do Not Listen to hear if the second violin passes gas!

Conductor's pace and interpretation.  
Orchestra instrument  balance:
Performer's timing 
Performer's quality
Orchestra-Soloist-Chorus balance. 
Chorus articulation.                      
Venue quality 
Recording quality 
Dynamic range

For me, my system and classical CD collection permit listening to the music, in toto, and not just listening to pick out the faults.

Bryston BCD-3 spinner  >  BP17cubed preamp   >  4B cubed amp  >  Thiel 2.7 speakers with SS2.2 sub and PX05 crossover.   For me, the preamp and speakers make it real.

Blue Jeans Cables for interconnects and speakers. Standard  Bryston
power cords. 

Stax Lambda Pro and Sennheiser HD 600 Headphones for when the neighbors complain!

Listening room: 16 x 24 x 12,  with one 24" side partially open
to the dining room. Carpeted with upholstered furniture.

George

jafant - Thanks for starting a long and interesting thread. I'm driving my CS6's with a Krell KSA 300S amp and Krell KRC - 2 preamp. The amp is a perfect match for my Thiels because of their low sensitivity and difficult impedance curve. My other components include a PS Audio PerfectWave DAC and transport, a Marantz SA 8005 player for SACDs, A Krell CD 250/2 for HDCDs and I play vinyl with my vintage Denon DP 47F, Hana SL cartridge, and Krell phono preamp. I just bought a vintage Denon 3800 Blu Ray player so I can play DVD-Audio disks (I'm kind of a format junkie).

Good credible information in this thread about cables. I run a mishmash of cables including Audioquest, Emotiva, and Blue Jeans interconnects and Tara Space and Time speaker wires. I've just never been able to hear much difference in cables. One of these days I'm going to spring for a fancy power cord (probably Shunyata) to see if I can tell the difference but it's not a priority. One thing that has actually made a very audible difference is the addition of a BSG Technologies qol processor. This thing improves the imaging, particularly the soundstage depth, without causing other audible problems. It's one of the best investments I've made and it works great with the Thiels, which already image fantastically.

tomthiel - Thanks for the vacuum cleaner tip; I'll try it. Rob suggested using painter's tape but I couldn't get it to pull out the dent at all.

thielrules - This pair of CS6's came from Cumming and they weren't advertised. I bought them from a guy I met at the 2017 AXPONA and we have since become good friends. He upgraded to a pair of Legacy's and when he mentioned that he would sell me his Thiels for a good price I enthusiastically took him up on it. I had to drive to Rochester, MN for another reason which meant that I was only two days away from Cumming. If you ever need to know this, it turns out you can fit two Thiel CS6 speakers in the back seat of a Dodge Charger. No, it wasn't easy.

Prof - your opinion is quite useful to me. I'm casting a wider net than my personal, usually quite old, experience. I presently have bought a long run of unterminated ProCo cable 12 x 4 which resembles your links. Bluejeans' welder sounds wonderful. Terminations are serious business. I have not tried AC cables; although my queue has some shielded hospital cables to compare with "normals". I can imagine EMF interference issues. I have an EMF meter and was amazed by the levels of EMF around my gear. I installed 2 new outlets and simplified routing which significantly reduced those levels. I think I heard a more relaxed musical presentation, but I had no assistant and no way to A/B, so the result is merely a move in what seems to be a good direction.

Thank you. Tom

Hi Tom

I’ve been able to use a fairly wide variety of cables in my system off and on (Nordost, Audioquest, others...often loaned or given by audiophile friends/acquaintances). But that’s not because I’m craving high end cables, just because if I need one I sometimes don’t have to buy them. (I’ve often given them back if I went on to buy my own).

You won’t find me too helpful as I am not convinced about the case for expensive/audiophile cables.  (Especially AC cables.   Doing some blind testing of AC cables cured me of any desire for those long ago).

Currently I’m using a mishmash of old Kimber PBJ interconnects that I bought long ago, I think there is an audioquest set in there, and some nordost for one connection (will probably replace that). I may replace all those with interconnects from bluejeans cable at some point. Probably no need, but some of the cables are pretty old and the bluejeans cable specs may suit my CJ preamp a bit better.


My speaker cables are currently Belden 5T00UP 10awg, from bluejeans cable:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

I had to do a 40 foot run or so for the speaker cables and went biggest awg just to ensure no audible transmission loss.

I’ve heard speakers I own on this set up, and at my friend’s place who has borrowed or purchased speakers from me. He sometimes has up to 50 or 60 thousand dollars of cabling (Nordost, Crystal cable, others) for his system and the speakers sounded at least as good at my place.
FWIW. Probably not useful to you, but there you go. Cheers!

George - I am especially interested in learning your methods of comparison or evaluation.
(This inquiry is an honest one)

prof,

Have to agree with you.

George

Prof - it would be helpful to me to know what interconnect and speaker cable you are using in your system, as well as the other components as well as your comments about strengths and weaknesses. I am calibrating my experience and understandings from a perspective of long absence from the arena. Your perspective, especially on cable, would inform my thinking.

arniespin
Good to see you again. Thank You for confirming that StraightWire is a sonic match w/ Thiel loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

**peeks in.**

**decides to stay out of thread until cable  discussion is over ;-)**

Tom- I’ve been using Strait Wire Serenade speaker cables in my system since before I had Thiels. I actually first used them with a pair of Meadowlark Kestrels. When I got my 3.5s I noticed how much larger and more dynamic they were over the smaller Meadowlarks but still retained a certain familiarity and naturalness to my ears. I attribute this in part to both manufacturers design philosophy of time & phase alignment. Later when I acquired my 3.7s and to this day I continue to listen through my SW Serenade speaker cables. I like the fact that these cables have been with me so long and have always allowed me to hear the sometimes subtle differences when making changes to my system. It makes perfect sense now that I know the history between Thiel and SW, that these speaker cables have been such a synergistic match with my Thiels.
Cheers!

Sdl-4 - I think it is considered a solid value and they also sell into the pro market. Harmon among others use their products.

tomthiel,

I don't have direct experience with Straight Wire's current products, but I did have a very helpful conversation with Jerry Willsie at Straight Wire about using Thiel speakers with my PS Audio amps and pre-amp.  Jerry seemed very knowledgeable about which wire to use with Thiels, and he didn't try to push more expensive wire on me if I was happy with my current Straight Wire speaker cables. I agree with you that Straight Wire doesn't seem to get a lot of attention as a high-end wire company these days, but there's so much cable competition that it may be hard to stand out. The sales rep I worked with at the Cable Company did tell me that they sell a lot of Straight Wire products, so Straight Wire may still be considered a solid value in the crazy world of wire.