jafant, thanks for pointing me to this thread! Currently have Thiel CS 2.3s driven by Krell KAV-300il with Audioquest CV-8 speaker cables. Front end is Oppo BDP-103 used as transport, PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (and getting the Bridge and converting cds to NAS next, will run Roon and Tidal). PS Audio UPC-200 for power, AC cord for Krell is an Audioquest NRG 3 with 20 amp plug, converted to IES with Black Voodoo converter. Silnote Morpheus XLR cables. Room is 11.5' x 22' x 8.5', no treatments, pics coming on virtual systems soon.
Loving this system so far, have greatly enjoyed each improvement. However, I am looking to improve highs which sometimes lack crystal clear clarity, I think the technical term is "tizzyness?" Also would like to improve the vocal/midranges, make these warmer and deeper. What should my next upgrade be? I am thinking that a significant improvement is going to cost $2000-$3000, in the meantime I was going to try some DIY room treatments. In setting up my HT I convinced myself the room is the most important part of the system, or at least the most bang-for-the-buck improvement wise once you have a decent system in place.
Background - dove into two channel hifi at the beginning of 2018, goal was to put together a decent sounding system in a dedicated listening room using used, discounted, even vintage equipment, all for less than $5000. I think with the PS Audio Bridge I will come in just over that mark. Geoff Poor at Glenn Poor's Audio and Video in Champaign IL demonstrated the magic of time and phase aligned speakers and after some research I Ianded on the CS 2.3s. I had been using my brother's old Maggies and had already purchased a Krell integrated amp for these along with Audioquest cables, also had an Oppo universal player from an old HT set-up, so that's where I started. |
Thanks for the advice and the nice welcome, I am interested in learning more about upgrades for capacitors etc, so will be looking into that route.
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OK, i have finally read this entire thread and have learned a ton. Big thanks to jafant for the initial "I just scored...", and the handful of regular contributors, you know who you are and what you've added. And of course tomtheil, wow, all the insight! Being new at this, I can't contribute much other than questions, and of course, as requested, some favorite tracks. Reading through the thread prompted me to pull up many that I had yet to play on my new set-up (James Taylor, Dave Brubeck, Everything But the Girl, Fleetwood Mac, and more), and helped me find a couple new artists (Kim Richey, Bill Frissel) so thanks!
Here are some recent tracks I currently have in heavy rotation - "Shark Smile" and "Mythological Beauty" by Big Thief; "I'll Still Destroy You," "Carin at the Liguor Store," and "Dark Side of the Gym" by The National; "Scrimshaw" and "Last Rose" by Anna Meredith; "Bodys" by Car Seat Headrest; older favorites that keep getting played are First Aid Kit and Spoon's album "They Want My Soul." |
And here's a question - I have the CS2.3s, and of course much of the discussion on this forum focuses on other models, but I assume based on specs alone my 2.3s are fairly similar to the 2.4s, meaning hopefully much of the discussion is still pertinent to me? The corollary here is that I don't need to run out and get 2.4s, and when/if I start getting itchy to replace the speakers, I should think about CS6s or the acclaimed 2.7s. Are these good assumptions? |
frozentundra - good question - I have a PS Audio Perfectwave, haven't auditioned anything else in my newish system, and did get some feedback via the virtual system post suggesting a McIntosh DAC would bring more warmth, less dry air to the overall sound? I plan on trying room treatments first (and maybe cables) but it does make make me wonder.... |
pwhinson - thanks for the insight into how the Bel Canto Ref600s sound with the 2.4s; it seems Class D amps are generally not favored for Thiels but this is the first time I have heard details as to why for any specific make/model, and I have been wondering about these amps specifically because of their generally excellent reviews. I also wonder about the PS Audio Stellar M700s (or even the S300) for the same reason. Anyone else out there with ears-on experience with other Class D amps paired with Thiels? |
Anyone tried a PrimaLuna amp? Each time I visit a hifi store, I leave smitten by a tube amp, many of which won't fit into my current audio budget (looking at you BAT and PS Audio!). Last weekend it was the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP, curious to hear about any listening experiences with this or any other lower cost tube amps (Rogue, for example) to pair with my 2.3s. |
Considering a Classe CAV-150 for my CS 2.3s. Can't find a pro/definitive review with measurements, but based on everything I have read, this should be a good match, esp with my goal of cleaner treble and a bit more body in the mids. Not thrilled about buying a ~20 year old amp tho, y'all got any advice for me? |
Continued thanks for all the help, here’s another possibility, Sunfire 300, recently serviced and recapped. Not thrilled about build quality or age but based on specs and reviews this should do well? Not looking for an end state by any means, just a low cost improvement over what I have (Krell kav 350iL) and something that will keep me happily listening for a year or two.
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Time for decisions to be made - currently on the secondary market these three ss amps are for sale: BAT VK-500 w/ BAT PAC; Classe CA 301; and Sunfire 300. All seem capable of driving my
CS 2.3s. Cost of the Sunfire is about half as much as the others. Reviews of the BAT make it sound like it could be the last amp I will ever need (LOL, right!) and unless I am mistaken these don't come up for sale very often. I love the sound of tubes, which do you think is my best choice? |
Wow, this is a long silence, did I say something wrong? |
Missed out on the BAT VK-500, but now seeing Cary 500mb for similar price. Specs/reviews that I have found are extremely favorable BUT don't indicate the ability to drive a 2 ohm load, which makes me assume they will not stand up well for the CS 2.3s. Am I right, or should I consider these amps? |
dancastagna - have you tried the PS Audio M-700s on any of your bigger Thiels? Would you recommend these as primary amps for our hard-to-drive Thiels? Your HT setup sounds amazing btw, is it posted in the systems section? And +1 on the amp list, great idea! |
tomthiel - thanks for the Benchmark link (a few pages ago), that was a very helpful piece of education for me. Has anyone tried the AHB2 with their Thiels? Based on the literature this one has moved to the top of my list, if I can't find a great deal on a used amp in the meantime. jafant, is it on your list of contenders?
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Wow, I continue to be blown away by the level of discourse on this thread. tomthiel, are there references you can share re the serious body of study - is there anything publicly available? And how do you test an amp for 2 ohm performance? My best guess is listen to them through Thiels, but I imagine there is a technical/engineering way to do this, or does maybe this requires high dollar equipment that I could just spend on an amp? catalysis - are those amps 150wpc mono-blocks? Again, thanks all for this discussion!
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Has anyone tried Paul Speltz's Zero Autoformers to change effective impedance, allowing for the use of lower powered tube amps to pair well (or at least better) with their hard-to-drive Thiel's? |
tomthiel - happy belated birthday! If I am doing things similar to you when I am 70, I should be a happy man!
prof - glad to find you are listening again - hope the rest of the recovery is speedy and total.
gasman117 - glad to hear about the PS Audio amp - it is on my short list of products to try, glad to hear about its positive impact to your Thiels. (Also makes me wonder what happened to ronkent?) And I also run w/o a pre, have yet to convince myself it is necessary, much less worth the relative investment. Like anything else in hifi, might help, might not.
mr_bill (and jafant) - I do indeed have CS 2.3s and enjoy them greatly, but I don't know any better, these are only my second speakers (third if you count midfi HT) in the hifi journey, so I don't know what they lack in SQ relative to 2.4s etc. One thing about the 2.3s, you might feel a bit left out of these discussions, as I think I am the only 2.3 owner who posts, and only rarely. On the other hand, they are a piece of Thiel history, being the first with the coax tweeter/mid, and they are generally lower cost. And with all the xover upgrades these guys are planning, maybe they could be just as desirable as the other models.
btw - serial numbers - mine are 4467 and 4468. |
Some amp news - about a month ago I acquired a BAT VK-55, it replaced my Krell 200wpc integrated. I know a 55wpc tube amp is not a conventional choice for Thiels, my 2.3s being no exception. However, every time I spend time in audio stores, I always am drawn to speakers powered by tubes. I saw a great deal on the VK-55 on another website, convinced myself that the BAT design had decent chances of working well (so easy to do when lusting for new gear), and was immediately happy when I powered it up - it really opened up the mids, with no loss of bass relative to the Krell. High treble is still my room's weakness, the VK-55 helped a bit, but as not much as I had hoped - complex passages still get smeared in the top end, and too much sibilants esp in female voices. Alas, room treatments will need to continue. One thing I am really enjoying is the resonance and detail - for example, I can hear the sound of strings and the resonance of wood behind them. Also staging detail, especially height and depth, improved. If someone has a more technical explanation of why this mismatch sounds so good, I'd love to hear it. And, just for you jafant, I researched and purchased what I hoped to be a good power cord for this amp - Cardas Clear M.
Oh, I did make two tweaks to the VK-55 that helped a lot, probably not newsworthy for many of you - plugged it right into the wall outlet, and isolated it from the rack with a giant slab o' wood. Not really, it was a big 1" thick chopping board I found at TJMaxx, well worth the $38, as this made a modest but significant improvement, even more detail and I think better bass? I am afraid this means I might become a tweaker. |
The Des Plaines 3.7s seem like a great deal, is it partly because of the finish (black)? Wish I was further along in my audio journey to jump on these.... |
Samzx12 - thanks for the note re the improved sq with more tube power - I am greatly enjoying my first tube amp, also a vk-55, but know there’s something(s) better out there. What are your thoughts about running two BATs in mono? |
And hats off to you, jafant, for getting the snowball started down the mountainside! Happy anniversary! |
stevecham - can you please elaborate on your choice of amps? I am interested in the Stellar M700s and wondering how they sound compared to other amps you have used with the Thiels? Thanks ahead of time! |
thanks stevecham, you're making me a believer! |
jafant - nice review and hope to read several more from you! |
So, my advice to you, pwhinson, is to pursue room treatments. I think you could improve by optimizing listening positions (speaker placement relative to sitting position), two channel taking priority over ht. Possible room treatments include false wall of diffusers on front wall, same on back wall, absorbent on right sidewall and ceiling. Now I have to convince myself to do the same
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Pwhinson -
I have a 21 x 11 tunnel of a room with a large window on the front wall. I have spent the last six months convincing myself the next most cost effective upgrade is room treatments. I have researched room treatments and have figured that for my room, I could spend $1000-$1500 (and perhaps considerably less) and virtually be guaranteed a significant and irreplaceable upgrade in sq. I’d be happy to spend that much or more on equipment that would likely have the equivalent impact, and yet I just can’t pull the trigger. Which is crazy because I learned this lesson the easy way when I set up our ht room. I could afford the middest of mid fi equip, but had a great room to work with and a spouse who was fine “decorating.” It was easy, cost wise (as in basically free), to optimize and nearly perfect the positioning of speakers to listening position, using golden rule math, and with some canvas pictures backed with foam at the 1st and 2nd reflection points, it made a $2500 midfi home theater, in two channel mode, sound in the same league as my brother’s $8,000 set-up. So now I have a dedicated two channel room that presents some dimensional challenges that could be addressed with reasonable cost. And yet, I can’t pull the trigger.
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bighempin2 - forgot to ask, did PS Audio have their speaker prototypes in the listening room when you were there, as Paul mentioned in one of his videos? I was out there in October and no such luck but they had just moved. |
ronkent - welcome back! Very curious about what you will do when Paul releases his speakers. If you move on, can you put me on your short list for the 3.7s? How does one obtain a pair of these anyway, outside of watching all the normal sites? Not in the market now, but someday....
jacksky and bighempin2 - welcome, you probably know this, but you have found a gem of a thread. bighempin2 I am impressed you are jumping in with both feet!
All - I rarely see MCS1s for sale, and came across one at Audio Solutions in Indy, for $700, catch is both woofers don't work, nor does the midrange, and they are unsure (!?!) about the tweeter, so lots more $$$ to rebuild this thing. Question is, are these so rare that it could be worth it for the person determined to put together a five channel Thiel system? |
Oh and not that I am keeping score, esp bc quality is more important than quantity with these threads, but I take some pride in knowing this thread now has more high quality posts than the Tekton Double Impact thread - nice!
And it was nice to see some of posters here recommended Thiels to the guy with $5000 to spend on new speakers. Which brings me to my next question for those that have the experience - how do Thiels sound compared to Vandersteens? Seems like there are many dedicated listeners for both, wonder how they became so attached to one or the other? |
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Hey guys - just have to say +1 on adding a sub. I have 2.3s and don't consider myself predisposed to requiring good bass - it's never been a high priority characteristic I listen for when auditioning equipment - but based on these discussions and also realizing that what my room was missing was low frequency energy, I picked up an old but nearly perfect REL Storm III sub here on the 'gon a couple weeks ago (budget dictates vintage gear), and wow what a difference! Not running it with much gain but there is a palpable difference - feels and sounds much closer to live acoustics. |
tomic601 - one thing to check is the coax drivers, be sure your 2.3s have the upgraded drivers - sn#4567 was the first to have been converted to these at the factory per Rob. I bought my 2.3s used, lower serial number, but luckily the coax (and xover) had already been upgraded. The upgrade gets you the same coax driver and xover as 2.4s, if I understood Rob correctly.
Here's Rob's full response to one of my questions re this upgrade -
There were two versions of the CS2.3. New style,
and old style. The new style began at serial numbers 4567. The new style
consisted of having two magnets on each of the coaxial drivers. The old style
had only one magnet. Both versions used ceramic magnets, and the CS2.4
incorporates Neo magnets. Much stronger magnet 10x. The CS2.4 coax cannot be
used with the CS2.3 properly. The coax rebuild is $250 each, plus shipping, and
can be rebuilt in either version. The new style coax had a two part change to
the crossover network as well. You can remove your coax for inspection, and
tell whether it is a double ceramic magnet or only one, like the old style. If
you need to rebuild both coaxes, then the associated crossover parts are free.
Let me know how I can help.
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Again, how great is it to have Rob and others on out there helping us get the most out of vintage (in my case) gear!
Speaking of vintage, tomic601, I am digging your vintage system, just need fresh pics with the Thiels! |
As usual I am impressed at the level of discourse on this thread, entertaining, educational, and consistently civil despite differences in opinions experiences and ears - bravo!
Probably a pedestrian observation, but a new chair made me realize how important ear level relative to coax driver is. Long story short - new chair, whitewashed sound, bummer by chair is here to stay, took me a couple days but realized the added elevation made a HUGE difference. Tilted the 2.3s up by a full 0.5” to compensate and wow, back to the good place. Interesting to realize that the Stereophile measurements agree with my ears. Happily my listening skills appear to be improving! Full details - new chair puts ears 4” higher, from 32” to 36”, and the coaxs are at 32”. Ears are 8-9’ from speakers.
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Right back at ya jafant!
Did y'all see the thread re the interest in resurrecting Dunlavy? Curious if anyone can compare the Dunlavy sound to Thiel? Geoff Poor was the first guy who explained the importance of time/phase coherence to me, he was also involved in Dunlavy I think, I ended up with used Thiels rather than the new Maggies he had me listen to, but hey the concept stuck. And I bought a BAT amp.
Also, what about Coincident speakers relative to Thiels? What piqued my interest here was system posted by cal3713 (who also had some words of encouragement for me to try to upgrade my XOs after reading the erudite discussions on this thread - y'all have fans out there!), he went from 2.4s to Coincidents. Just wondering what other time/phase coherent speakers sound like.
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And wow those 7.2s just listed are amazing! Never seen that model listed, wonder how rare are they? |
+1 re sdl4's recommendation on a power cord for the PS Audio Stellar Pre/Dac, especially if you use the DAC; I use a PS Audio PWD as a volume control/DAC and was happily surprised when I replaced the stock cord with a Cardas Clear M and the SQ improved. Not dramatically but enough to make the cost worth it. Seems like many believe that EVERYTHING matters for digital equipment. |
batmanfan - there are several discussions in the digital group of threads that could be helpful; my take is if you have more than one source (and I bet you do), DAC design continues to change and evolve, so if you want to maintain the ability to change/upgrade the DAC, you'd be better off with separates. That being said, there are fans of some boxes that do both, but this does lead to some built-in constraints down the road. The other question is the streaming part - again, one unit or a combined DAC/streamer. With all things audio, cost becomes the biggest constraint. |
+1 on audio solutions in indy, my experiences there have been good, lots of used gear, some of which gets listed here from time to time. They had a pair of 2.3s and were happy to hook up several different tube amps to them which convinced i could enjoy the sound of mid power tubes with the Thiels. Ovation is ok too, seemed for focused on HT although they carry some good brands. Nice to know AS lends equipment out!
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oblgny - thanks for the comparison, if you wouldn't mind, what kind of differences do you hear between the 2.3s and 2.4s? Like you and prof have mentioned, I love the way these speakers sound from an adjacent room. My kitchen/dining room is adjacent to the listening room, through a 3 foot door opening near the front right speaker, and I greatly enjoy listening from the next room, lots of "wow" moments there, and like some live music venues, you get pulled into the main room bc it sounds so real from next door. |
Oblgny - thanks for the comparisons. The 2.3s and 2.4s look so similar on paper i have always wondered what the sonic difference is. And thanks all for the music you enjoy using to evaluate SQ.
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Getting caught up on my favorite thread and have to say a belated but big thanks to andy2 and prof for explaining what they are hearing when they listen to 1st vs 2nd order crossovers. You guys (and many others on this thread) have tons of listening experience and a talent for being able to explain what you hear, thanks for sharing! |
Umm, I feel like an acolyte interrupting the masters at work, but anybody try Acoustic BBQ speaker cables with their Thiels? I need to get some speaker cables with spade connectors (long story) and leaning towards trying these, unless someone can make a strong case for something different for less than $400. Same old requirements - less harshness in the treble, no loss of resolution or harmonics. Currently have AQ CV-8s which are the only audiophilesque speaker cables I've tried. |
Good question tomthiel re the Benchmark, I convinced myself a while ago that if I were to spend my audio $$$$s on a ss amp, it would likely be this one, but thus far I have not tired of tubes. My guess is very few Thiel owners have tried this amp, but for the life of me I don't know why, as on paper it seems a match made in heaven. Maybe it's a question of distribution? Maybe the classics (Bryston, Classe, Pass, Ayre, etc) are the no-risk choice of high current amps?
And once again, reading some of these other threads reminds me of why I so much enjoy coming back to this one - the regular posters have a lot to offer newish users like me, and they are generally very open to others' experiences and philosophies. Rock on Thiel Users! |
not sure "centered" was a good word choice above, the thread does get way off topic at times. |
Thanks andy2 for the cable recommendation, jafant I imagine you must have some speaker cable opinions, or maybe could share what the expected differences in outcomes would be for using Duelund 12awg based Acoustic BBQ vs Acoustic Zen's Holographic II, which uses 8awg 6N zero crystal copper? Tube amp driving 2.3s. |
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TGIF for sure, and thanks jafant for the cable info, much appreciated. |
More good info thanks tom. Can you elaborate on “kind of problems that plague Thiel users” when using the Adcom amp? Would other Thiel models benefit from being modified for dual inputs to allow for vertical biamping, and could (should?) this be done as part of a XO modification? Apologize if this has already been covered in the thread, if so I will go on a search mission, unfortunately withthis format it’s easier to ask than go back and search. |
Thanks donzi, whichlevel anticables did you end up with? Assume speaker and interconnects, did you also try their power cables?
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