The reasons power cords are not made from solid core wire are safety and ease of use. Have you ever tried to bend a 12 awg wire....10 awg? I believe the safety thing is the concern that frequent bending of a single solid core wire could lead to fatigue cracking and a higher incidence of wire failure. Romex in the wall is fixed and not subject to repeated bending. One of the manufacturers who posts here, has said Romex would actually make a high performing power cord but it would not meet electrical codes for that purpose.
I have made a couple of 7 awg unshielded power cables using six strands of old stock WE 10 awg wire (the same stuff used by TWL in their American series). I use them from two dedicated 20A circuits (wired with 10 awg Romex) to 300 wpc Class A monoblocks and the DIY 7 awg cords sound every bit as good as expensive IsoClean or Furutech power cables I also have here.
Some day I will try the Romex thing.
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Act-tu-ally, the best power cords are solid core. Audioquest Hurricane et al. Hel-loo! Always remember to respect the directionality of your power cord and it will respect you.
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Mitch2- One of the manufacturers who posts here, has said Romex would actually make a high performing power cord but it would not meet electrical codes for that purpose.
We talked about this some in the Romex to your Amp thread. here is what I posted there. It still applies here. Electronics and power cords do not need to be UL listed. Certification is an optional process that costs $5,000-15,000 of dollars per model and is only good for 5 years. The only reason large manufacturers do this is because many retailers and contracts specify certified products only. Clearly very few (if any) boutique power cables and audio components are certified.
There is nothing wrong or illegal about solid core power cables.
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Can't say you want low loss high frequency dielectrics in one sentence and then low frequency wire in the next. One would almost think people are just guessing and speaking in conjecture.
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And if Romex is great, it is almost like OFC, single crystal, OCC, silver, etc. does not matter.
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One thing to remember about power cords is that they only have to transmit one frequency (60 Hz). Everything else is noise. Many manufacturers have descriptions of their power cords that sound like what you need with interconnects and speaker cables for audio. That just makes me laugh.
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delkal,
That is not true. If all they did was transmit 60Hz, then linear power supplies would not work. There is considerably energy above 60Hz.
The limitation in frequency response will be the transformer primarily.
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"it is almost like OFC, single crystal, OCC, silver, etc. does not matter" Do those really matter....for a power cord? The factors I listed were wire gauge, noise-cancelling geometry, shielding, and adequate plugs/iec. I would amend that and add a good wall outlet that tightly grips the plug. |
Audiozenoligy
That is not true. If all they did was transmit 60Hz, then linear power supplies would not work. There is considerably energy above 60Hz.
The limitation in frequency response will be the transformer primarily. In America all of the power grid is generated at 60 Hz. That included the 120 Volt line at your house to the ultra high voltages in the long distance transmission lines. But it all has to be at exactly 60 Hz or power gets wasted and bad things happen. Are you mistaking Hz (cycles per second) for voltage? From the power plant voltages can be stepped up for transmission to thousands of volts (so you can use a smaller wire) but close to every house there is a step down transformer that converts it to 120 volts for home use. The only energy you get is 120 Volts at 60 Hz. That is what your components use and everything else should be considered noise. Switching power transformers can be universal so you can plug them in to a 240 volt 50 Hz European power outlet and it still works. But it has nothing to do with the small amount of electrical interference at frequencies other than 50 Hz for Europe or 60 Hz in North America. |
Oscillation frequency of alternating current and voltage 🔚🔜 is not the same thing as frequency of the signal. It is a semantic argument. Just as the audio waveform does not ever travel down a single wire. There is no frequency of the signal when it travels down one wire, and in the opposite direction on the other wire. I.e., the wires are not vibratory. They are subject to external vibration, however. It’s a semantic argument. Electrical power doesn’t have a frequency. Energy doesn’t have a frequency. The audio signal is not vibrating, it’s oscillating. An any instant in time it can only be going in one direction. 🔜 |
delkal,
You are confusing frequency of generation with frequency of power draw. Linear power supplies may draw power 120 times per second (rectified), but the bandwidth of what they draw is not at all limited to 60Hz but has harmonics well beyond 60Hz. If that was not the case, linear power supplies would not work. It is akin to a 60Hz square wave not being only 60Hz, but having significant energy at harmonics of 60Hz. Is it noise? ... matter of definition I guess, but it is certainly an artifact of a linear power supply. The power draw for a linear power supply will always have significant harmonic content.
A switch mode power supply on the other hand may draw power at something approaching 60Hz, at least many attempt to.
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geoffait- To get a speaker to produce sound you need an oscillating current of some frequency and AC power is distributed as an oscillating current at 60 Hz. Do you ever wonder why a 60 Hz ground loop hum from the AC sounds exactly the same as a 60 Hz audio test tone?
AudioZenoligy- A 60 Hz signal starts out at zero volts, increases to positive voltage, decreases to 0 again then goes to negative voltages, then back to zero. This cycle happens 60 times a second (60 HZ). Linear power supplies draw on the positive swings and the negative swings. There is no power when it crosses zero. That is where you get the mistaken idea that there is any energy at 120 HZ. There isn’t. 120 Hz is just half of the 60 Hz full cycle.
Harmonics is still distortion and for power distribution and is not OK. Ever. And even with an audio signal going to your speakers harmonic distortion is only a minor component. While some distortion / harmonics can be considered OK (like the distortion in a tube amp) if your system has more than one percent you might want to consider upgrading to high fidelity.
It is ironic that many of the most vocal people in this thread do not seem to have a basic understanding of how power and audio signals work. Further debating is pointless.
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Delkal,
I have been respectful to you but your attitude is poor and your knowledge worse.
The AC supply is a voltage at 60Hz. However the frequency of the power draw, i.e. current, is a factor of the load effectively modulating the line frequency. Hence you have current draw both at 60hz, and at many harmonics of 60hz, primarily odd harmonics the spectrum dependent on the load.
I will emphasize again a linear supply cannot work if it draws power only at 60hz and you are confusing supply voltage frequency with power draw frequency. The lack of knowledge is not mine, it is yours. (Note I said that it draws power 120 times per second not that is the primary spectrum of the energy draw).
Short of a resistive load just about nothing on the AC line has low distortion.
It would not be unusual for a linear power supply in a piece of audio equipment to be running 30% or more harmonic distortion on the AC input current. Only way to fix that is to add resistance or inductance to the AC input lines.
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Atdavid
...the #1 lesson that an audiophile can learn is that they are susceptible to bias. What I can't stand is those who say my evaluations of my system upgrades are so heavily biased as to be unreliable, or even delusional. |
thyname
It's beginning to look like it. To the point of me starting to detest is, as only [the slayers of snake oil] use it, in every audio forum they can find. There are members I detest, and whose comments I no longer read. |
audiozenology36 posts12-15-2019 3:58pm"They both do exactly the same thing on the same circuit. I don't think you have thought this through. Of course they have the same importance."
Good plugs are off course what everything relies on, but the male plug at the end of a pc is not where I would put my money.The female walloutlet is the one that might makes the difference.
-------------------
Think again. The male is just a passive plug, just keep it clean while the female is all about how tight it wraps around the male and makes mechanic contact.
https://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/
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delkal
geoffait- To get a speaker to produce sound you need an oscillating current of some frequency and AC power is distributed as an oscillating current at 60 Hz. >>>>Huh? That’s what I just said. |
audiozenology"The AC supply is a voltage at 60Hz. However the frequency of the power draw, i.e. current, is a factor of the load effectively modulating the line frequency". That is not at all what happens you are confused, disoriented, and/or grossly misinformed as to the nature of AC power in actual use and operation you should listen to "delkal" contributor he is correct. |
Clearthink,
No, I am not confused, disoriented, or misinformed, but I do find your post rude, ignorant and disrespectful and it shows you lack knowledge in this area. I really do not know why you chose to post your disrespectful, inaccurate, and inflammatory post.
The AC supply VOLTAGE is 60Hz. Current draw is a function of the load, and is not limited to the 60Hz supply voltage. If you believe that is the case, then I do not think you are qualified to make a comment on this topic. Delkal is not correct. THD (Total harmonic distortion) is a critical measurement for AC products and is the ratio of power draw harmonics (above 50 or 60Hz) related to the 50 or 60Hz primary frequency. AGAIN, it is not unusual for a linear power supply to have a THD of 30% (or more). This is not debatable. It is the case. It is well known. It is easily measured. That 30% THD means there are higher frequencies on the power line.
Is that "noise"? When looked at only from a standpoint of AC line harmonics, yes. Does that mean it is bad? Debatable. There is a reason why some amplifiers don’t recommend power filters, which would reduce harmonic distortion on the AC line.
Here is a thought exercise for you and Delkal. Can a battery only supply power at DC or will the frequency of the power draw be exclusively a factor of the load? |
audiozenology"I do find your post rude, ignorant and disrespectful and it shows you lack knowledge in this area. I really do not know why you chose to post your disrespectful, inaccurate, and inflammatory post. The AC supply VOLTAGE is 60Hz"
I am sorry to have hurt you're feelings you are obviously a pensive, thoughtful, sensitive person I can only suggest, recommend, and advice you that when you make patently false, inaccurate, misinformed statements you should anticipate and expect that other contributors hear will respond with a proper response. if you seek a "safe space" where you're feelings can be nurtured, protected, and shielded from reality then you may wish to be cautious and circumspect when promoting you're unique technical explanations that conflict with established science and engineering principals.
In this most recent post it is NOT TRUE that AC supply voltage is 60 Hz you are confusing voltage and frequency these are two very different things and your claim, assertion, and argument reflect a a fundamental ignorance of electricity. |
Act-u-ally the real point is frequency and oscillation are not synonymous. The other point you guys are missing is the audio signal in wire is not a vibration.
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geoffkait"frequency and oscillation are not synonymous."
This is very true and valid of course but there are those in this forum who speculate how electricity works based on "feelings" and "what seems to be true" yet they lack the knowledge, experience, and understanding of the fundamental basics and elemental principals that apply and there real problem is that when you correct they're confusion and misinformation their so badly hurt in the "ego" that they cannot formulate, express, and convey a rational response we have an entire generation or more that is only able to function in a "safe space." |
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If you are going to be arrogant, pedantic, and rude, you better invest the time first to ensure you are not erroneous, ignorant, and misguided.
The voltage of the AC supply is a 60Hz sine wave. Your attempt at pedantictry is but a strawman. One has to wonder why you have to resort to a strawman as opposed to addressing the rest of my argument.Clearthink, would you like to try again, to show that you do not understand that the bandwidth of the power delivery to a linear power supply includes harmonics (typically odd harmonics), well above the primary frequency of the AC supply, i.e. there will be significant harmonics at 180, 300, 420, 540, etc. .... and that the sum of those harmonics will be significant, i.e. 30% of the primary is not unusual.
Further, would you like to illustrate how the typical linear power supply would operate if the only frequency of power delivery was 60Hz? I can wait. Why don't you draw it for yourself. Hint, if the only frequency of power delivery is 60Hz, then the current waveform must also be a nice perfect 60Hz sine wave.
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audiozen: Talking or debating with clearthink is like talking politics with the other party. No one changes their mind but everybody ends up pissed off. Clearthink clearly thinks there is always only one answer...his. To debate with him (or Geoff) is pointless. |
audiozenology"If you are going to be arrogant, pedantic, and rude, you better invest the time first to ensure you are not erroneous, ignorant, and misguided." I understand that you’re feelings are hurt, that you’re ego is bruised, and that you’re self-image as an expert, authority, and arbiter of truth has been tarnished, damaged, and diminished and yet I congratulate you for stepping out of you’re "safe space" and venturing to where others can help you question, explore, and learn. Knowledge will come to you over time and I encourage you to continue you’re efforts. I also encourage you to buy or acquire from you’re local library an introductory to basic electricity so that you can understand Ohm’s law and things like that, much of which is very simple! The complicated things come later but the best approach is to take one step at a time. Don’t give up you can do it! You are still very new hear to this group so time is on you’re side! |
dynaquest4,
I had quickly come to one of those conclusions and I am rapidly reaching the other. This had started out respectfully with delkal, but unfortunately someone felt a need to "puff their chest". I don’t have any illusions they understand the topic or even care to. It is simply attention seeking. It is not an isolated event.
I do find it a bit weird they insist on repeatedly showing their ignorance about basic EE, even illustrating a knowledge level lower than a first year technician let alone a first year EE student. Oh well, I am only providing the space, they are shouting at the top of their lungs. |
Their - possessive (they)
They're - contraction (they are)
There - position (here/there)
Here/hear? |
dynaquest4
To debate with him (or Geoff) is pointless. >>>>For you that is especially true. Hey, that rhymes! 🤗 |
audiozenology"I do find it a bit weird they insist on repeatedly showing their ignorance about basic EE, even illustrating a knowledge level lower than a first year technician let alone a first year EE student. Oh well, I am only providing the space, they are shouting at the top of their lungs." You are still very new hear you will find your way over time and you seem to be smart so I think you will learn as you go there are many experts here to learn from!! Do not let you're feelings be hurt because you have made mistakes in your claims, assertions, or theories it is not personal it is science and engineering. |
You're : you are
Your: possessive
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audiozenology"You’re : you are Your: possessive" Thank you English is not my first language and I sometimes make mistakes it is very difficult language to master! Mostly I am "conversational" in English but electricity is an international language so it is easy to see where your knowledge gaps are unless I misunderstand your English which does not seem to be the the actual case. |
The pitfalls of being a teacher.
It's ingrained to notice... |
jerrybj"The pitfalls of being a teacher."
No thank you I am always learning your language and appreciate your help and reminders! |
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audiozenology"...would have been smart for them to find out how I spent a good part of my career.’ Why don’t you tell us about your "career"? Are you from the advertising end of the industry serving as a marketing, advertising, and promotional consultant that is what it sounds like simply linking to "authoritative" links will not establish you as knowledgeable, expert, or informed remember there are many experts here so if you do not want to have you’re feelings hurt again be careful how you explain "facts" and "science". |
Clearthink
English is one of the most difficult languages to learn.
Don't you think?
through/though/thought
1 mouse - 2 mice
1 house - 2 hice?
Spelling difficulties
Pronunciation difficulties
Tense difficulties
Word order difficulties
Punctuation difficulties |
dynaquest4414 posts12-16-2019 2:07pmaudiozen:
Talking or debating with clearthink is like talking politics with the
other party. No one changes their mind but everybody ends up pissed
off. Clearthink clearly thinks there is always only one answer...his.
To debate with him (or Geoff) is pointless. Pretty much nailed it dynaquest4. Some people confuse ignorance with enlightenment. I wish it was not as common as it is. |
Strange, the person who wrote this does not appear to have any issues with the command of the English language .... well unless they did not write it? clearthink
1,014 posts01-19-2017 3:12pm
Again,with the kind permission of Bo, the group and the moderators kindly please allow me to expand a bit on TruFi, what it means for the world of music reproduction systems and how it will change the industry.
Kindly please remember that I am not not a spokesman for TruFi. I am a client of Bo’s and it has been proven to me and it has been proven to everyone that the world of music reproduction systems is shifting from one of widdley-tiddley voodoo to TruFi, which is recognized by all who hear it.
Bo does shootouts. Using properties identified under TruFi and measurement techniques, Bo can demonstrate a diversity in sound that no one else can deliver. He can do this because he alone has developed TruFi, the only means so far developed to allow music reproduction systems to show the true diversity of sound that only TruFi can deliver, so far.
Until now music reproduction systems have been built using information from paid for advertising and "reviews" and trial and error approach. This is why all music reproduction systems other than TruFi are 1D or 2D while TruFi systems are 3D. This has been proven many many times, so there’s no need to debate that here. |
It is strange dynaquest4 how some people want to show their lack of knowledge. I guess I am just here to help them .. probably would have been smart for them to find out how I spent a good part of my career. Oh well.
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/understanding-thd-total-harmonic-distortion-in-p... Read this article again. It proves you still have it totally wrong about THD. Figure 1 shows a 60 Hz sine wave under a resistive load. The voltage swings from positive to negative and the current (i ac) tracks it. This has a power factor of one. That means you don’t waste any power. 100% of the power you put in can be used for "work". There is also no noise / harmonics being fed back to the grid so it won’t pollute the power grid with noise. Figure 6 shows how a linear power supply works. It is a non-linear load. The 60 Hz voltage still goes up and down but the current
(i ac)
is drawn mostly at the peaks. This distorts the current and generates harmonics that are fed back into the grid (back to the plug). Figure 7 Harmonics of current flowing into a linear power supply shows what the power looks like flowing in to the AC/DC converter. The harmonics you see were not in the original clean 60 Hz power supply but they were generated by the AC/DC converter and fed back to the grid polluting it. This caused a lot of distortion in the current and causes 280% THD. But (again) everything other than the 60 Hz signal is considered distortion and is not used for any work. The power factor for this AC/DC converter is only 0.33 showing the harmonics are just wasted power. Approximately 70% of the power you feed in is wasted and gets sent back to the grid as harmonics polluting the rest of your (and your neighbors) power. If you have too many non linear loads on a grid this distortion can be a big problem to other electronics (look it up). One thing they can do is make transformers buzz and overheat. This distortion is what you want to filter out by using a power cord. Or even better a power conditioner that removes the harmonics and feeds your system a clean 60 Hz sine wave. |
280% THD? That’s a lot of THD! 😩 |
280% THD? That’s a lot of THD! 😩 Yes......that is why 70% of the AC power you put in is wasted by the AC/DC converter. But that does not mean you will have 280% distortion in your audio signal. The 33% converted into clean DC power that makes it out is what is used in the audio circuit. |
Simple Question delkal: What is the frequency of the power drawn by a battery? Is it DC or is it entirely load dependent? Keep in mind there are 0 frequencies in a Battery. It’s all DC. "Voltage" is only the potential to do work. The voltage is oscillating in amplitude at 60Hz. But unless you draw current there is no "power". Second Simple Question: What will happen if a basic linear power supply draws power with a frequency spectrum of only 60Hz or 50Hz? .... hint, the answer is it will not work and the output will just be a 120Hz half sine wave. You do realize when you admit that THD on an AC line is an actual thing that a) You are admitting power is NOT delivered at only 60Hz, AND b) That power not being delivered at only 60Hz is ESSENTIAL for operation of a linear power voltage. There is so much fundamentally wrong with what you have written that I don’t even know where to start. Let’s start with .... "But (again) everything other than the 60 Hz signal is considered distortion and is not used for any work."... This is not remotely right. The supplied AC is just a 60Hz oscillating voltage. Without current, nothing happens and that is defined by the load (or interaction of the supply and the load). Hence, for a linear power supply to work, the frequency spectrum of the delivered power, ---- which is what is required to make it work ---- cannot be only the line frequency. You are also confusing, at some or many levels, the impacts of THD and power factor. THD is not an indication of how much real power is delivered. Power Factor indicates this. I can create a load with a very low THD, but poor power factor. I only need to phase-shift the current. Figure 7 Harmonics of current flowing into a linear power supply shows what the power looks like flowing in to the AC/DC converter. The harmonics you see were not in the original clean 60 Hz power supply but they were generated by the AC/DC converter and fed back to the grid polluting it. This caused a lot of distortion in the current and causes 280% THD. But (again) everything other than the 60 Hz signal is considered distortion and is not used for any work. The power factor for this AC/DC converter is only 0.33 showing the harmonics are just wasted power. Approximately 70% of the power you feed in is wasted and gets sent back to the grid as harmonics polluting the rest of your (and your neighbors) power. |
NO, That is not what it means at all. Poor power factor does not indicate that power was wasted. It simply means that Voltage and Current are not in phase. The only thing "wasted" is generation capability and distribution capability, and a bit higher resistive losses due to higher peak currents and hence higher RMS currents for a given power delivery resulting in higher losses in the distribution system (i.e. wires). delkal59 posts12-16-2019 3:50pm280% THD? That’s a lot of THD! 😩
Yes......that
is why 70% of the AC power you put in is wasted by the AC/DC converter.
But that does not mean you will have 280% distortion in your audio
signal. The 33% converted into clean DC power that makes it out is what
is used in the audio circuit. |
280% THD??? Not after it's gone through my Isotek. |
audiozen:
Power Cord magic believers will scoff at science because all that matters is what their ears tell them. Not what they hear, but what their ears tell them. They purchase a $1000.00 power cord; get behind their "stack" and replace the cord. Takes about 15 minutes. Then they listen and Holy Jesus!!! It is jaw droppingly better....absolutely game changing. You hear this over and over!
Two things. Any actual difference the new PC could/would make will be subtle. Any reasonable audiophile knows that's true. Second, audio memory is extremely perishable. In the 15 min it took to change the PC, your cranial encased audio processing/memory will be unable to recall an accurate audio reference for comparison with the new PC's performance. Instantaneous switching back and forth (while not knowing which is which) is the only way to compare subtle differences. And doing that (A/B switching) to test a power cord is nearly impossible for a home audiophile.
A recording engineer I know did, however, set up a blind A/B test pitting a $1.50 Benchmark power cord (that they recommend) vs a $3000.00 IEC cord in his studio. He used two Benchmark DAC 2s set up so that a single button push would switch between the two. The listening group were professional audio engineers that worked in the building (including a Grammy winner). None could tell any difference. No one heard any fidelity change.
We all want to have our gear sound better, but if I ranked things that were likely to make any improvement, power cords would be pretty much on the bottom...right above Geoff's green pens. Top three are almost always ranked as the quality of the recording, the acoustic environment and speakers.
I'll now push my keyboard away and stand by for clearthunk's veiled insults.
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Dyna, Your example is only of value if your ears are no better than that of a recording engineer. |
Boxer....your comment is of no real value.
Thyname...I am not at liberty to disclose my source. He is a professional audio and recording engineer with decades of experience in the business. My reference to him is true. If you do not trust me, no problem...I don't know you either. |
