All my amps right now are Class D. ICEpower in the living room, and NAD D 3020 in the bedroom.
I’ve had several audiophiles come to my home and not one has ever said "Oh, that sounds like Class D."
Having said this, if I could afford them AND had the room, I’d be tempted to switch for a pair of Ayre monoblocks or Conrad Johnson Premiere 12s and very little else.
I’m not religious about Class D. They sound great for me, low power, easy to hide, but if a lot of cash and the need to upgrade ever hits me, I could be persuaded.
The point: Good modern Class D amps just sound like really good amplifiers, with the usual speaker/source matching issues.
You don’t have to go that route, but it’s time we shrugged off the myths and descriptions of Class D that come right out of the 1980’s.
It’s simple. You cannot put anything into the air besides a hot air balloon. At best you can create a glider and glide down from above, but the idea that you could build a machine heavier than air that could hold a person a motor and fuel combined is ridiculous.
Just think of the weight of the fuel alone! Gasoline weighs over six pounds per gallon. To have enough gasoline to push against the ground with a motor or fan of some sort would require monstrous gasoline consumption.
It is utterly ridiculous to imagine that you could do anything useful with a machine and flight. The machine itself, the motor, the fuel and the pilot simply are not sustainable.
Not only is it physically impossible, but dear god, it’s a foolish venture to attempt to make such death traps into a business. You could never produce an actual plane that could carry itself for long, let alone cargo, people, or get anyone to pay to have the gargo moved that way. Anyone who shipped via an airplane would surely loose their valuable posessions that way. And comfort? What kind of comfort could you experience from falling out of the sky?
No, sir, no. It is clear that rational human beings should stick to balloons.
"Truth" is a word like "Fact" ... it is only for science. Taste is not science. That is a fact, for example.
Class D at it’s best is great for some and lacking for others, and that’s fine. Stop justifying your purchase, it’s the essence of admitting you’re insecure about it. If you’re happy ... great ! LISTEN and ENJOY !! That’s the goal here, it’s not a contest or a science project ... to love music.
Talking about "sonic signatures" of amplifiers it is worthwhile to mention (and read about) Bob Carver and Bruno Putzeys. The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com Bob Carver - Wikipedia "Carver caused a stir in the industry in the mid-1980s when he challenged two high-end audio magazines to give him any audio amplifier at any price, and he’d duplicate its sound in one of his lower cost (and usually much more powerful) designs. Two magazines accepted the challenge."
"Here's a quote from Bruno Putzeysto get back on sonics: "It's always a dilemma whether an amp should be tuned for things like subjective bass control, sweet mids or not. One of the tricks a McIntosh does by design is to have a highish output impedance—because of the autoformer—which makes for a more liquid midrange sound and then to add a subjective sense of bass control by allowing a slight THD rise in the top end. When things like those are really tastefully balanced, such an amp can really make life hard on a 'straight wire' amp in a shootout. The signal actually comes out sounding nicer and more impressive than what went in. But on the other hand I think that to make the greatest number of people happy, one can't afford to give an amp a sound of its own because the number of new fans is probably immediately offset by the number of people who don't like that particular tuning. But it's tough to resist the occasional sonic touch-up. I can emulate the sound of pretty much any amp out there if I wanted. But so far I'm resisting. If ever I give in, it'll be obvious from the measurements and I hope someone calls me out on it. Anyhow that's why I decided I actually wanted the NC400 to have this unvarnished dead-pan delivery." Hiswhite paperexplains the details on the Ncore technology."
I am in the IT field and I worked in computer retail for awhile in the 90's. Sometimes I would have people come in and they were what I came to call "specced out" and suffered analysis paralysis. I still remember this one guy, over 20 years ago. He wanted the fastest hard drive. We carried a certain brand and he would bring in spec sheets for other brands. This one was .5ms faster in read time, this other one was 1ms faster in write time. He wasn't going to see a difference, but the SPECS!
I feel like a lot of people are like this about class D. It CAN'T be as good as Class A because of dead time or switching, or whatever. Just like the guys that pop up in threads (usually amps) and say it can't sound good because it didn't measure as well as this other amp.
I have a little bit of everything: tube, SS, and class D. My class D is a Peachtree Nova 220SE. I like it a lot and over the last 18 months it has gotten more and more time in my main system. I do have some vintage McIntosh stuff too, their first SS stuff and it sounds great as well. After I recapped the 2505, it sounded amazing. If I listen critically, there are definitely differences, but it is hard to say what is "best."
I have enjoyed reading this thread, but I choose to trust my ears. I don't care about dead time or switching, or whatever else. I want it to sound good. If it sounds better because you have fixed those issues, then great! I do think Class D is the future and it will only continue to get better. But I am getting ready to build a single ended tube amp, so maybe I am crazy :)
Bob Carver "I built many of them right here in my own laboratory with the thought they could and would fulfill that final promise.... I was never able to build a Class D amplifier that sounded as good as a linear one."
John Curl (Parasound, CTC, Vendetta Research, Constellation) "Some version of hybrid Class A/D looks like the future in optimum audio design."
and so on...
Most if not all of those comments were published 5 years ago - from what I have read much progress has been made meanwhile.
@auxinput... Not quite.... Like with all other topologies, some class D amps I like very much, some leave me indifferent, and some I have deeply disliked.
I am very impressed with the PS Audio Sprout100 when using my DaytonAudio Bookshelf speakers and a Raspberry Pi as my USB source. The Bass Boost they built in is adequate, but this amp really needs a sub-woofer for a foundation. At lower listening levels, like a bedroom, I see that a Class-D amp is a good choice. But to compare it to the Denon AVR-2805 for SQ, there is no comparison.
I use a NAD M12/M22 v2 combination and, overall, I'm very happy with the SQ. I'm a bit new to digital equipment, and since this is my first digital system, I have nothing else to compare it to - other than auditioning components at a dealer.
Amplifiers are analogue devices. Loudspeakers' transducers (drivers) are moved by voltage swings, not zeroes and ones. D in D-class does not mean digital.
I agree...current class D is just fine. I have owned all kinds of brands...mcintosh...rotel...krell...nad...exposure...muse....channel islands...cairn...peachtree. I currently own red dragon pascal-based class d amps and they are great. Plenty of folks find McIntosh TOO lush....almost syrupy.
I agree Class D is just fine. Competes just as fine as any other design tube or SS. Class A is also very fine but problem there is size weight and overall cost of ownership especially if many watts called for. Class D these days easily competes and offers unique benefit in these areas that matter practically to many.
George talks like no Class D amp can compete with any other kind whereas we all know quality and cost varies greatly with all kinds of amps.
Now if one wants to compare a specific class D amp to some other then there may be something worth talking about.
I am quite new to the audiophile world but I am a professional musician so I have quite a bit of experience with music and how I think it should sound. In my opinion, there will always be something artificial about electronic equipment trying to capture what the human ear (and brain) experiences in a live situation. Let's not forget the pro audio side of the equation i.e. what kind of mics, pre-amps, mixing board were used, mic placement and then, what kind of limiting and compression. And then on the hi-fi side, you go through a bunch of equipment again, trying at the very best, to reproduce what has been recorded. I'm seeing some comments about the lack of naturalness of class D but too me, everything in audio reproduction is somewhat unnatural. That's not to say it doesn't sound good, it's just not as sophisticated as what we experience when we listen to music live. I recently was at a hi-fi store and listened to 2 comparably priced and well-regarded integrated amps. One was class A/B and the other class D. Both sounded really good but emphasized different elements of the musical experience. The class D sounded more detailed and clearer but leaner and some would say clinical. The class A/B sounded more liquid and richer but some would say less detailed and congested. I think it just comes down to personal preference. Recordings are never going to sound like the "real thing"so you might as well just go for the sound that is pleasing to you. Maybe with my modest budget I have as yet to hear a system that captures everything that a live performance offers but I have a feeling that its a very very hard thing to do. BTW I preferred the class D amp but I thought they were both very very nice
Adam I agree with the "somewhat artificial" assessment in many cases.
If you ever get a chance to hear a pair of OHM Walsh speakers I wonder if they might shift your opinion somewhat. Especially off a good Class D amp and maybe a well-applied tube or two upstream if desired.
The Ohms are a radically different design that excels in coherence and reverberant field which effectively bridges the gap between sounding hifi versus more lifelike.
Not to steer this off topic, but no system can produce a convincing life-like sound, partly because the recording equipment cannot capture it. This is most evident in note decay. Musicians will know what I'm referring to. Anyone who thinks their system can recreate a live performance should go buy a cheap guitar, play a few chords and compare that to their very best acoustic recordings.
I just wanted to weigh in here and say to all those who have low opinions of Class D amps and dismiss them outright, you may be overlooking their potential as a lower cost bi-amping solution for bass when looking for a solution for difficult to drive speakers. Even though you would never use them on the top end or as a single amp solution they do have cost effective applications on the low end, bi-amped.
I have never heard a hi-end Class D amp so won't offer an opinion on their musicality. I do have two Crown XLS 2500 amps (low end Class D amps price wise at $595) pushing the woofers on my Infinity Kappa 9's and even these really delivery on the low end. So much so I have considered upgrading to a better Class D amp just for bass. (Suggestions welcome.) I have mono class A tube amps on the top end that cost over 10x the Crowns and of course there is no comparison. But together they sound excellent and these inexpensive Crowns have helped me avoid having to spend a lot on a big Class A SS amp like a Krell or other high current amp that these speakers need.
Excellent way of utilizing them as that’s where they shine at the moment, with their output impedance down in the milliohms region (damping factor massive), so long as the speakers load impedance doesn’t get real nasty, as most that I’ve seen don’t seem to like <3ohms too much.
Blanket statements like this, without qualifying them with your experience, and speakers used are entirely unhelpful. Want to fill this in with what you find not-mediocre, and what Class D you have heard?
I agree with Adam8179 write up. Are my PS Audio Stellar class D's the best amp there is? No. Are the Class A/B's better sounding? Maybe. Do the PS Audio's sound really good to me and also are in my price range? YES. All that matters to me.
Not to steer this off topic, but no system can produce a convincing
life-like sound, partly because the recording equipment cannot capture
it.
I've seen systems belie this statement. In particular, a direct microphone feed driving headphones can fool many audiophiles with great ease. I advise actually working with good mics and recording gear and see if you still say this.
I agree with @erik_squires, you can’t make blanket statements that class D is “totally mediocre”. Have you heard Mola Mola Kaluga’s for example? We know somebody who moved over from the much regarded Soulution 710 to Mola Mola Kaluga's. The MM’s cost one fifth of the price and they drove his speakers effortlessly. Lansche and Manger among others choose to use MM amplification at the Munich High End Show. Not without reason.
Hey Folks. Interesting discussion to me as I've had the NAD M2 (not Dad's NAD 3020... $6K) for several years, now. My "flavor" of sound is the sound of vocals and un-amplified instruments in an actual space, my having grown up around lots of live music. I am an "ANTI-RESONANCE" disciple since the mid 1990's, using the Marigo Audio Labs tuning dots expertly applied by Rick Taylor on all serious gear, internally and externally. Out of the box, there was some dryness and coldness that I do not favor.
The M2's cabinet is horribly resonant and needed addressing.
The tuning dots on the cabinet and exposed electronics brought things much closer to my liking. My "perfect world amp" would be the best of modern tubes and solid state merged. The beauty of modifying a single box approach like the M2 is that everything improves, pre/dac/amp. Upgrading the isolation feet and the power cord on the M2 came next, followed by Synergistic "blue" fuse. To begin to approach "world class" my DSP expert and I went to work on my small dedicated studio. Well done Class D begins from a very silent noise floor and terrific capability for high resolution with great sources. We can make 1/10th of a decibel adjustments and add a "taste" of tube harmonic sweetness. For hard core "purists"...lets not forget this is all "illusion." Again, not Dad's slider EQ at work here. As a 72 year old, passionate music lover of all genres, with knowledgeable friends using NCore amps, great sound is available using Class D...with a little work and great cost effectiveness. Good power, dedicated lines, upgraded outlet(s) good wire can approach world class outcomes. Cheers, Norm
@pinthrift I would have to agree, "with knowledgeable friends using NCore amps, great sound is available using Class D...with a little work and great cost effectiveness. Good power, dedicated lines, upgraded outlet(s) good wire can approach world class outcomes"
Well put Norm. especially about the "auxiliary" equipment to allow the Class D units to sound their best.
And just to note, the supportive/auxiliary gear (conditioners, etc) I ORIGINALLY used to make my transistor and tube gear sound better. But then all I did was exchange the SS/tube gear for Class D with the same conditioners, etc, and I got BETTER sonic outcomes with the Class D.
In other words, if someone wants to make a case that "Class D only sounds better with cleaner power, etc"-- I am saying, that is not generally true.
E.g: 1. Clean Power: I use a transformer isolator and a small conditioner for my front end gear. No etch or grain in the sound. 2. clean power cords: I'm now using a power cord from Triode Wired Labs for Class D units that removes any digital etch.
Last, I've found that I can have "better" Class D sound with a hybrid design. E.g, I have a Cherry Ultra Class D amp (Digital Amplifier Company in PA) that uses an 1800w transformer with Class D for transients and big bands, and I'm hearing instruments and nuance I never heard before. also, with a more balanced and larger soundstage
The front end of my winter system is a Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated running either EL34 variants or KT150s. It's just too much heat and electricity for the summer in my dedicated third floor room. I have a roof mounted AC unit that is pretty quiet, which I could crank up but that seems wasteful and I like the changing of system front end every 2 seasons.
In the warmer months, I am running a Schitt Freya tube preamp with an NAD M22 power amp--Class D. I won't belabor things with long explanations about the sound. Instead, I'll just say the Class D "summer rig" is pleasant and isn't the abject, non-musical failure that some would seem to suggest in this Class D and other Class D posts.
As a side note, I'm super curious to see if a Primaluna or similar/better tube preamplifier would be better than the Schitt. The Freya sounds great and only has a few drawbacks to me (i.e. power button on the rear of the unit, volume control intentionally makes clicking noise as you advance it up or down, no 12v trigger out).
I will note that the Schitt/NAD M22 combo sounds way better with vinyl feeding my Manley Chinook than it does with Tidal feeding an NAD M51 DAC. But, I would say the same thing if the Primaluna integrated were swapped in for the Schitt/NAD M22 combo.
I would have Paid $50.00 more dollars for an On/Off Switch in the front on the Freya. A 12V Trigger would have been a Bonus as well.Don't mind the clicking volume to much but you got to remember it goes to ZERO when ya mute it.Spent a couple of days trying to figure out why my Front Speakers quit working after installing an XBOX.Seems I accidentally hit the Mute Button on my Harmony 650 Remote.
At $699 it’s got what it takes under the hood, Mike Moffat is no fool, he made Theta digital what it is when it was on top. What he’s done with Schiit is hiend at lowend pricing, using volume to make his profit. He’s giving Italian V12 quadcam horsepower but with US V8 supercharged iron and no glitz and glamour. $50 more for front switch, a $100 for a smarter chassis, $50 for a more expensive remote, all of a sudden your over a grand and it sounds the same.
Yes George ,you are correct about those costs adding up, but, I would still have loved that front switch option. The nice thing about the Freya is it showed up quickly in The Harmony Data Base so I have a nice remote on hand for what functions it does have. I have gotten a lot quicker at reaching behind and through the wires at the back of the Freya to turn it on and off. I really have no complaints,and even though marketed as Hi-End at Low-End pricing , for this Budget Audiophile it IS Hi-End. and its got Tubes..
I caught up on this 2018 version of Class D amp discussion from @erik_squires. Same talking points from a lot of the same contributors—right down to cut ‘n paste posts, analogies and jokes from other Class D threads. I found a few kernels of wisdom, though, to make reading every post worthwhile. My favorite? Post by @douglas_schroeder about his parallel IC method and the response by @erik_squires. 😂😂
For my two cents worth, I am reviewing a new SPROUT100 from Scott McGowan at PS Audio. This is the second round of testing and reviewing. The first time I found the sound rather anemic, even with their Bass Boost employed. In the interim, I obtained the Infinity Intermezzo 1.2s subwoofer, and now everything sounds better. The sub doesn't require the SPROUT to try and make Bass, and it asppears to free up ther Mids and Top-end.
@erik_squires The Schroeder Method for parallel IC’s works, but strongly recommended against its use with class D amplifier topologies owing to the increased bandwidth of signal transmission of the IC’s into the realm of the switching frequencies of those designs. I think folks should (and do) evaluate all component changes in the context of their entire system with respect to SQ improvements.
Doug’s opinion (as shared by many, including me) is that the improvements in SQ afforded by parallel IC’s can be equivalent to exchanging a component elsewhere in the system. I’m not so certain that the use of parallel IC’s over single-run IC’s actually trumps exchanging a component, per se. But using a non-class D amplifier topology might enable some to improve the overall SQ of their system with use of a full loom of parallel IC’s from source to final amplification.
Sorry for the duplicative (and now-deleted) posts. System error with the site and not the user. 😬😬
My previous post is made against a backdrop of using a Spectron class D amp to drive Dunkavy SC-IVa’s. So I readily accept using a single-run of IC’s from the preamp to the class D amp.
@tweak1 I never receive notifications about new posts. I recently noticed the autocorrect features of the forum posts no longer work. And the search engine functions of the forum are now disabled (zero hits as search results).
The only experience I have wth full range Class D amps was in an sudio shop listening to a Rotel Class D amp driving Vandersteens. They sounded nice, but I wasn't there long enough to really discern their sonic features. The Class D amps in my subs sound great, however, so at least, for me, they well serve a limited bandwidth duty cycle.
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