The original OP is narrowed to high-end speakers, but the answer applies to business in general.
1) Businesses require time, resources, effort to run in a non-fixed market conditions (changes over time). What sold well this year may not be the same as the next
2) High-end audio is a small niche market heavily influenced by advances in technology/performance. 3) if a manufacturer came out with a new product consumers expect it to be an improvement over the previous model all else being equal (similar prices) or better if it cost more. Notable exceptions are speakers “within their price point” remain competitive even with minimum/no further innovations (efficient Klipsch Heresy/Cornwall/Klipschhorns, Ohm Walsh). Speaker designers often keep bringing new/improved versions into the market to stay relevant (Elac, Magico, etc)
4) initially speaker design/manufacturing is a labor of love- few/nobody gets rich. 5) Speaker designers/manufacturers have different ability and/or interest in growing a business which in any business is no easy cakewalk. 6) if the speaker designer/manufacturer doesn’t pass along his knowledge before he exits the market the company will disappear
7) if the speaker designer/manufacturer is successful in passing along his knowledge & delegate his responsibilities & people running the company is competent & has the resources to keep running the company & that there is a continued demand for his products & people in the company successfully meet the market innovation demands & the market demands his products (profitable enough), then the company has a chance to continue beyond the founding speaker designer/manufacturer |
@
mahgister
Sansui? They folded many moons ago! |
@ mahgister
Sansui? They folded many moons ago! Yes but they are sold used for the last 50 years with glorious review to this day, not bad for a company that is no more for the last 20 years.. .... I own 2 amplifier Sansui....one of the alpha series and the older Au 7700.... They are very good each one and offer more flexibilities than almost any contemporary amplifier....Particularly my AU 7700...( separable pre-amp section that is very good, filters, tone controls of quality, and many other possibilities too numerous to list here) Soundwise i cannot fault them.... I will upgrade who knows when, for a Berning amplifier but ,but for 150 dollars versus many thousands dollars, the quality and appeal of the Sansui is without doubt one of the best deal i ever make....Look at my link below what this experienced reviewer say about the AU 717 which is soundwise between my AU 7700 And the so called superior "alpha" series : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsTIDagHbMI&t=149s Sansui lost when their time and "timing" plays no more in the good direction around 1995....Their history is interesting... Vintage does not equal lower quality by no means.... I dream sometimes of my future Berning amp but i am in no urge and perhaps i will die with these 2 Sansui.... Except for the Zotl Technology anyway i would be afraid to upgrade Sansui with anything under 10,000 dollars.....The Zotl technology should beat the Sansui, that i am pretty sure... For the speakers it is more difficult, in my small room on a desk, the 50 dollars almost vintage Mission Cyrus 781 are so good on all counts, that i am also afraid to upgrade.... Which small speakers will give me 45 hertz clear bass, liquid mid range, non fatiguing highs, imaging perfect and holographic soundstage (thanks to my embeddings controls also for sure) ? I sold my 2 pairs of Tannoy dual concentric after 40 years because they were too big for my desk.... when you are older the house decrease ... :) The Tannoy speakers were more than good speakers but alas! i did know nothing about embeddings controls at these times and i never listen to them at their optimal output, like most people dont even know what S.Q. their own audio system can output because they do not embed it at all or not enough.... Small Tekton perhaps ? The designer Erik seems very interesting creator like Berning is.... I am fond of new tech..... 😎 |
I am glad that you are enjoying your older Sansui gear. But the topic was speaker manufacturers survival not vintage gear. All the best to you! |
I speak also about Tannoy, a brand name actually living strong, not only a vintage brand, that sell easily( i sold my 2 pairs of dual concentric gold paid 400 dollars 45 years ago 2,000 dollars)...
Their dual concentric tech was new and very amazing and the timing right...
Why do Tannoy succeed and go on living so long? For me the 2 essential factors are design quality/pricing and timing, amongs others important factors (advertising, esthetic, workers and transmission of technology, innovative new produtcs, standadization of line products etc).
If an innovative technology works , it can work even better for ever, magneplanar tech for example....When a new tech, is so revolutionary, then the product is unique, irrepleacable it can even grow stronger.... Magneplanar is an example...
Perhaps the new Tekton technology with an array of drivers is on the same road.... Electro-acoustic speakers are.... Horn speakers also....
It is the reason why design quality/pricing and originality is one of the most important factor in longevity.... All the others factors for me are subordinate to the timing factor, except perhaps the transmission of skills in a new generation of works....This tradition of transmission of skills with all his requirements were no more possible in the case of Sansui and were broken, amongst other factors, by the exigencies of the new emerging competitive mass market at the times....The same forces act and plays for or against any audio product, speakers or amplifiers....
My best to all....
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Sansui used to make speakers, too. Some were stand-outs (those with white membranes). I am not sure how sound would compare to more recent technologies. Therefore, longevity of a speaker manufacturer Sansui...
...well, it was good while it lasted. |
I think that Sansui speakers were not so well reviewed at any times like their amplifiers always were .... It was more a side product by a great amplifier designer....
For the longevity question, i think it speak volume when 50 years after their creation some product, be it speakers or amplifiers, Tannoy in one case and Sansui in the other, some products become mythical well designed sought after products... When the state of the company, being alive or dead, do not change the product value at all, it speaks volume about the importance of the quality and innovative design factor ....The main factor for me indeed with the right pricing and the timing factor in the survival of the company....
After some decades the main new intervening factor being the transmission of the traditions and innovative genius to the successive generation....It was no more the case with Sansui tradition in around 1995, but for Tannoy the company kick always at the time being other speakers companies "butts" so to speak.... :)
Just a last word to say that the survival of a company is not ruled by the same exact factors than the survival of a product in the market... The Company and the product are not synonymus and do not partake to the same fate completely...
Sansui company is dead for many decades, Sansui amplifiers kicks butts today; Tannoy dual gold sell for gold today and the company create new design that dont replace or kill the old one at all.... That say something also....
My best to you.... |
The "timing" factor is the most difficult to understand....This timing factor is more encompassing than just luck....
Because like a human being, a company or a product has his birth date, and his life and crisis....
The timing factor is a point in time where the others intervening factors plays well together or not....
The survival of any company, designing speakers or not is related to this timing convergence...
The analysis of a speakers company history or any company is centered around this convergence or timing factors...
It will be interesting to compare the many different designers of speakers and looking for this time convergence of many factors in their success and relating the timing of their innovative different technology to their comparative rate of success speed in time ...
There exist no longevity without timing, even if a company take good decisions, the convergent decisions must be taken in a certain window of time...
Ok i hope that i had not annoy anybody....I will pass the torch....
:) |
@jpwarren58- "Tweak Evangelist" and "Count of Concrete" totally made my day--i'm still laughing.
BTW Count of Concrete--You can't say it's all marketing and it's all word of mouth in the same sentence--it's one or the other. |
@Mahgister: Tannoy made its name (and fortune) in PA equipment all the way back to the 1930s and really got going with military sales in WW2. The domestic audio line is successful, but I think PA equipment still pays the bills. Even so they are on their third owner, in the Philippines. Perhaps that is the secret of longevity; being sold to a larger foreign corporation, viz. Quad is now owned by IAG, and B&W is owned by Sound United. |
Thanks for the info....
But i think their innovation (dual concentric) are there after all these years because they are very good also.... A myth in audio is rarely a complete lie.... |
He had had a couple pairs damaged in his showroom and he had several owners return them and demand warranty repair because they got damaged by a minor incident. I'm not sure if this is the major reason Apogee failed but it was certainly a factor.
Apogee didn't really fail they were bought out by ADS, and they didn't think there was enough profit in the speaker to continue the line. Apogee didn't charge enough money for most of their speakers. The duetta 2 speaker was only $2300 when they made them. |
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Yes and it says in the review that Tekton had been around 4.5 years before the review. So call it 16 years. But the OP will change the rules again. That's not "survival of the fittest" see because in that time they didn't survive they grew. Or something like that. Never can tell with these Rorschach type threads.
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So Kenjit who is full of s—t, you say don’t buy high-end speakers. Does this mean you don’t like high-end speakers or you just can’t afford them? Or, do you actually own any speakers at all, other than your non-existent design? |
How about Blue Circle? Gilbert Yeung built amazing components for years until he simply retired. |
I really like my $400, second generation B&W 803's, with subs from the prototype 800 woofer used in the DM 16.series. I did keep my 'Stats and my even older B&W stand mounts, but for value... WOW! Admittedly, I have to use two matching amps and pre-amps to get the sound right, but I also get to alter the bass output to compensate for crappy recordings, so some cheapness is lost.
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Interesting thread. The real "proliferation" of BOSE came with their sub + satellites systems. If you think of it, it was actually audiophiles that were at least somewhat responsible for their success which started in the late 80's but really grew in the 90s. That was right about the time that audiophiles started to allow manufacturers to get away without providing detailed technical information. That allowed them to proliferate a sub with a wickedly high crossover frequency and holes in the spectrum in typical room environments. This would be "law of unintended consequences" :-)
But seriously, Bose is still around in many ways because of technical prowess and consumer awareness. Yes really. What they did in 1984 with their OEM system for the Corvette was beyond most other companies at the time. While not up to today's systems, it was a big step up compared to every prior OEM system (and most aftermarket without modifying the car). Waveradio was the product people wanted. They were a decade ahead on headphones and active noise cancelling, a much wanted product. Their small BT speakers were also class leading in a similar form factor at the time.
w.r.t the proliferation of speaker brands, back to that audiophiles not insisting on technical details. That has lowered the barrier to entry on speakers (and any number of other products) to just about 0. Anyone can whip together drivers and a cabinet and call themselves a speaker company. If you create good products that don't have defining features, then you better be prepared to stick it out while you develop a following through organic growth. However, take a tact like Tekton and do something unique (right or wrong), and you can grow much faster (just like the Bose Acoustimass - unique at the time) because you will get free marketing well beyond your size as everyone wants to talk about you.
To stay around, as many have noted, you have to keep catching the customer's eyes (ears). Speakers last a long time, so return sales is a difficult game.
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Which leads back to fit and finish. The speaker may still sound golden but if the MDF is crumbly and the vinyl blistering; going to be a detriment to success. Some companies, like OHM, have a trade in policy to mitigate cosmetic degradation. And possibly allow audio advancements.
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You know I was a got to have them TEKTON'S guy, but then I sat down and started to think to my self. Lets look at them parts of the whole speaker and are the drivers not made by TEKTON. so who makes them? would they be made by Eminence? then I said to my self do you remember the ad's that Acoustic Research would put in stereo review that would show you their Anechoic Chamber and all the testing they put into their design of the AR 9'S and they manufactured their own drivers. when a manufacture source's out their drivers,and when that driver is not made anymore you start to have the same problem Paul Klipsch had with his suppler EV and EV had been on the seen for years!!, So Klipsch started with Stephens Trusonic drivers then switched to University then he started using E.V. You have a LOT of people on the sites today that are looking for replacement drivers after they found out that the driver is not made anymore, now i'm not saying that Eminence may not keep up with production of the driver for any Tekton model, but I will say is this what ever model you do purchase MAKE SURE YOU PURCHASE YOU SPARE WOOFER OR TWEETER after that major purchase, in case that voice coil has a open. I remember when Eminence use to make car speaker and I would see the drivers on the ground at flea markets and could buy a 15" woofer for $35.00 and I did notice one of Tektons model had change one of the woofers and that was a no no sign to me. |
i must confess to knowing Richard Vandersteen in 1982 ( Firm found. in 1977 ) and a friend since 2010 or so....
DRIVE, love of music, stubbornness, frugality, innovation ( look at the list of patents and as important trade secrets ...), investment in test gear, real science, listening, live music as a reference, no debt, vertical integration, etc.....
and not being satisfied...... |
