The new Synergistic Research BLUE fuses ....
So said testers simply CANNOT take the stance that because they did not hear an improvement then absolutely nobody else can or should! uberwaltz, Honest question: Can you point to anyone who has in fact made that claim? I participated for quite a while in the thread earlier, and didn't see someone making that claim. Has it been made since, and if so by whom? Thanks! |
I totally understand and respect those here who have tried an aftermarket fuse and garnered no discernible sq change. Kudos to those few. However that was still in their room with their equipment and to their ears, which is still highly subjective. So said testers simply CANNOT take the stance that because they did not hear an improvement then absolutely nobody else can or should! That is utter nonsense and arrogance beyond belief. The vast majority who have reported sq change have stated it is just what they are hearing and their opinion only not that it is a fact that an aftermarket fuse WILL result in an improvement. So we need to quit with the blustering posts that proclaim it is a fact that it is impossible to hear an improvement! |
This is like someone coming upon the scene of an accident, moments after it happened. They look around, size up the scene and come to a conclusion that discounts what the persons in the accident reported. The victims even have a dash cam video of what happened but the late comer refuses to look at it, citing his unfailing ability to backward engineer the event because, a higher level of abstraction. All the best, Nonoise |
tommylion, I don't have an inclination to try the fuses. Which, again, is not to say they don't work or wouldn't produce an audible change in my system. My motivation for posting in the thread is, well, just having an interest in high end audio and having opinions of my own :-) And those opinions, like many other audiophiles, are relevant to a wide range of subjects in high end audio. My interest was piqued just by the heading of this thread. I then read what seemed to be an epitome of the type of ravings that make many critics (rightly so I believe) roll their eyes at audiophiles. Huge, over the top claims for the sonic difference in...fuses...which are to say the least highly dubious. For instance "I’ve seemed to gain about an octave in low bass response." Is there a technical reason why anyone should expect another octive of bass response from an audiophile fuse? Not that I'm aware of. But if there IS, it should obviously come from some measurable parameter that would identify such behavior. (And of course an octave of bass extension would be easily measurable in in-room response0. But I don't see any such evidence being presented. So what we have, very typical in the area of tweaks, claims for Big Obvious sonic alterations in the sound, with little to no evidence in support of the claim beyond someone's subjective feeling that's what he heard. And when this is pointed out, we tend to get versions of "you can't measure what I'm hearing." And this is precisely the type of "evidence" used for every crackpot claim out there, from energy healing therapies, to astrology, psychics and every new age nostrum. Does it mean fuses don't or can't alter the sound? Again: no. But the NATURE of the claims and the type of "evidence" audiophiles like Frank rely on are, I think, rightly objects of skepticism. So in my case, I count myself as an audiophile. I love high end audio equipment, have owned a lot of it over the years, and obsess about little changes like every other audiophile. But I'm also concerned with the nature of knowledge, rationality, empiricism etc (my philosophy-luvin' side) and the claims made in high end audio intersect with these concerns all the time. |
prof, I'd have to reread all your posts, you may not have made any absolute statements. Others certainly have. You have clearly expressed your skepticism about the blue fuse. Do you have any inclination at all to try it for yourself? If not, may I ask what motivates you to continue posting on this thread? |
tommylion, Who is making "absolute" statements? Certainly not me, and I’m unaware of any other skeptic here who has done so. This is the usual straw man. If I am doing a scientific study, there is a “burden of proof”. If I am sharing my experience with others who may be interested, there is no such thing. Of course, sharing experiences make sense. I do it all the time like anyone else. The problem comes when people "sharing experiences" insist on the veracity of their experiences against any skepticism. The "you can’t tell me I didn’t hear what I heard" reply which is so common. It’s one thing to say "I tried X and heard Y." That’s a report of a subjective experience. Fine. But anyone using critical thinking understand that this is not necessarily the most reliable method for determining whether there are "real" audible changes produced by the product, vs imagined differences. The problem is that those of the "just try it for yourself" school promote this as the right way to determine sonic differences and THAT becomes a claim that is rightly disputed. It just ignores too much of what we know about the effects of human bias and malleability of our perception. And this is the point that your comments aren’t quite getting right. In science, someone does an experiment (tries something), reports the result, and then others try to replicate (confirm) their result. Reaching a conclusion about someone else’s experiment, without bothering to try and replicate the results, seems pretty unscientific to me. But in science you recognize when an experiment has been done in a sloppy, unreliable manner! You don’t have to perform a specific experiment yourself to recognize it’s a poorly designed experiment. If it's a poorly designed experiment the results aren't going to be any more reliable if I perform it for myself, vs anyone else! If you see an "experiment" for a new medical treatment that is performed completely without control of variables, you can’t say "Well the treatment doesn’t work" but you CAN say "The method you used to evaluate the treatment is unreliable, so your conclusion is unreliable." And THAT is generally what skeptics are saying about many audiophile tweaks. Not that they ABSOLUTELY don’t work so much as the type of evidence used to support the claims are unreliable, which warrants our skepticism. (And that is combined with the fact many tweaks are based on empirical claims that are unlikely to be true GIVEN what we know about the relevant physics/engineering issues/human perceptual issues involved). |
wolf_garcia ... Depending on one’s desperation to improve their system perhaps needlessly, and the ability to imagine what one wants to hear, you can always hope for that self satisfied nirvana provided by the feeling that YOU know what’s what because you’re special, and it’s important to you that others know that.And how are you any different from this person you describe ? |
As some may hove noted in my previous comments, I tested the Black fuses extensively and found them to be an overpriced waste of time, a couple of them blew (a VERY rare thing otherwise) although rated to work properly, and I concluded that the Littelfuse or other stock fuses were at least equal to the performance of the SR samples in my gear. My experiment, my conclusions. Note I didn’t pay for the test fuses so there’s that, and I’m also aware of the positive comments festooned with hyperbole regarding various obscure and not so obscure tweaks. Many of the things Geoffkait promotes are so silly no reasonable audiophile (or designer/manufacturer) would bother with them, and the market has spoken regarding green pens, Tice clocks, etc. which may or may not make the case that they’re bogus. Depending on one’s desperation to improve their system perhaps needlessly, and the ability to imagine what one wants to hear, you can always hope for that self satisfied nirvana provided by the feeling that YOU know what’s what because you’re special, and it’s important to you that others know that. |
Expressing true skepticism is perfectly acceptable. Making absolute statements that something cannot possibly make a difference, without trying it for yourself (when it is easily within your ability to do so), along with attacking & ridiculing those who disagree, is not. If I am doing a scientific study, there is a “burden of proof”. If I am sharing my experience with others who may be interested, there is no such thing. |
geoffkait I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. No controversial audiophile tweak has ever been proven to be a hoax or fraud. prof Well...er...yes...but only if you use the word "proven" in the most uninteresting sense of that word. You haven't "proven" I don't have a magic, invisible friend, or a time-share condo I share with aliens on another planet . Whoo-hoo! >>>>>Obviously anyone can come up with totally absurd examples and play word games. |
@ted_d Let me repeat this, there is absolutely NO OBJECTIVE CRITERIA OR TEST THAT EXISTS TODAY THAT CONCLUSIVELY PROVES ANY PRODUCT TO BE BETTER THAN ANY OTHER. Admittedly I haven’t monitored all the pages since I joined this thread but...that phrasing strikes me as a straw man. I count myself as a skeptic about fuses, but I wouldn’t be making any such claim, and I didn’t see any other skeptic make such a claim. (Unless someone has made it more recently). The issue isn’t "Proving X is better objectively" but rather "demonstrating that the difference between X and Y are actually audible." THEN we can talk about which one someone might prefer. I’d also point out that in many ways one CAN show objectively one product to be "better" than another. We just have to look at the parameters of performance we want to improve, then measure them (or do controlled tests showing people can hear one as better than the other). There are simply too many variables, known and more importantly unknown that can only be taken in as a whole from a subjective standpoint. That doesn’t sound very scientific. But then I suppose you aren’t trying to be scientific? (And if that were the case, I’d wonder on what principles you base your products?) If there are "too many variables" to test in a controlled manner, then there’s no reason to think uncontrolled subjectivity is going to do any better - in fact it’s less likely to discern between variables and likely just introduces more variables. |
Not only that opinion stated by Ted, but he offers a 30 day trial of any of his products. That allows anyone and everyone to test out the product to see if it does what it professes to do and if the device is worth the change in sound if there is a difference. I haven't purchased or tried a Synergistic Research product that didn't make a sonic difference, usually to my liking but not always. I've tried about a dozen different types of equipment footers until I decided on the current iteration of Stillpoints throughout my main system. |
The only point of contention with your statement is the refusal of those who say a fuse can not affect performance based on a belief, rather than an experience. That, is a great example of expectation bias: I will not hear an improvement so why bother trying? As opposed to "lets see what happens here when I change this...", which is more of a scientific approach. Just like with cables, I went through 3 different brands of fuses before I came upon one that sounded best in my system and to my tastes. All the best, Nonoise |
NO OBJECTIVE CRITERIA OR TEST THAT EXISTS TODAY THAT CONCLUSIVELY PROVES ANY PRODUCT TO BE BETTER THAN ANY OTHERAmen, I agree. The thing is, that statement, and the arguments of this thread, cut both ways. IOW, no objective criteria or test exists today that conclusively proves the Littelfuse, Bussmann fuse, or any other fuse, to be better than the SR fuse.......and conversely. Thus, the result has been an infinite regress argument, amusing to some, irritating to others, tiring to many. |
While it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to express their opinion it is not acceptable to attack others for their subjective take on a hobby that is all about the subjective enjoyment of music. It is also not acceptalbe to drown out people with the same circular arguments that seek to invalidate experiences. These attacks are basically a straw man argument that holds an absolute objective standard must be adhered to when no such standard exists. Let me repeat this, there is absolutely NO OBJECTIVE CRITERIA OR TEST THAT EXISTS TODAY THAT CONCLUSIVELY PROVES ANY PRODUCT TO BE BETTER THAN ANY OTHER. There are simply too many variables, known and more importantly unknown that can only be taken in as a whole from a subjective standpoint. Therefore the end result is the listening to a product in the context of an audio system that ultimately establishes a product as being worthwhile or not. Anyone who claims differently does not understand what it is that High End Audio is all about in the first place. My advise to all reading this who are also tired of defending against the same tired arguments and attacks endlessly should simply IGNORE the protagonist in the same way you ignore a screaming raving lunatic on a street corner. Yours in music, Ted Denney Lead Designer Synergistic Research Inc. |
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3 of the "Awesome Foursome" are at it again, time to bring out the sanity pitch, rather than the "snake oil’ one. The only reason to change a $2 internal mains fuse, is to just replace it with correct manufacture specified amperage, slow or fast blow, new $2 one. Not a $150 one!!!!Cheers George |
geoffkait ... I have some Perry Como albums that are killer! While he seemed to be half asleep while singing, he wasn't asleep at all. The man could sing right along with Sinatra and the other crooners. uberwaltz ... As good as the SR Blue fuses are, TC is even better ... by far. I believe it will become a staple in the industry. Frank |
Frank Yea I am really unsure what some members truly hope to gain besides a bad rap for themselves! I do believe the SR Blue I installed in my phono stage is opening up some more, I was belting out an album I know well this morning and it just seemed to have a little more top end detail and sparkle, sure I could be imagining it but not much to gain on that score as I already spent my money and will continue to do so however I see fit and please. Not decided 100% on whether to take the plunge on TC or not yet, simply because still need to fully convince myself on that score yet. And as far as your TC thread goes I thought I better steer well clear, I have blown a fuse nearly with run ins with certain members already, no need to get myself any further worked up...lol |
oregonpapa I put a new SR Blue fuse in my Pioneer DVD player that Grover modified for me about two weeks ago. Oh my ... its really coming into its own now. I was listening to a CD of Bob & Ray’s "House Party." There’s one cut of Lena Horne singing a sexy ballad. Its so good, I can sense her presence in the room. Nope, I can’t smell her cologne, but almost. Maybe when I paste my electric panel the cologne will appear. :-) >>>I was listening to Perry Como the other day and I actually did smell his cologne. It was Afternoon in Milwaukee. |
^^^ uberwaltz ... We seem to have a cadre of evil doers’ lurking about here at A’gon. A new one showed up in the TC thread. Honest to God man, I just don’t get what they get by putting others down. All I can think of is that they lead darkened, narrow little lives and get their jollies by defacing everything they come in contact with. Are these the guys who "key" brand new cars in parking lots? I put a new SR Blue fuse in my Pioneer DVD player that Grover modified for me about two weeks ago. Oh my ... its really coming into its own now. I was listening to a CD of Bob & Ray’s "House Party." There’s one cut of Lena Horne singing a sexy ballad. Its so good, I can sense her presence in the room. Nope, I can’t smell her cologne, but almost. Maybe when I paste my electric panel the cologne will appear. :-) Frank |
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