I wonder what this is. 
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Merry christmas especially to those who are alone and with only one loved person beside them or at distance or sick ... We grow old and more isolated ... Music can be then more than a leisure , a way to remember the past and the eternity ... I like this image a lot because the joy is always measured only by the infinite and make itself felt as a finite soul in front of us ... A dog , a bird or a tree or a children ...Any finite object remembering his source ... This is a mystery if there is one and the ground of mathematics itself according to Georg Cantor and the ground of love mystery... We cannot see more than the way we love .... Then seeing anything and saying : "this is only that", if it is not lying to ourself , it is staying blind ...
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As @mahgister asserts "... it can be much more..." The mode of perceiving the "more" could be described as mystical. Merry Christmas!
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@jpwarren58 oh my God….came very close to pissing myself….best Audiogon post of 2023 and thinking it will be difficult to top in 2024… ” working on mysteries without any clues, working on night moves “…. iF Bob Seger had only been old enough to buy beer…. |
Great post! thanks ... I wish you the best for Christmas and this new year... 🎄
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Music and art can’t be reduced to digits on a page. The page that has a bunch of figures and data on it is only tangentially related to music and art as a whole. mys·ti·cism 1. belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender. I don’t know what to make of the ideas expressed in the OP, and how a strong argument can be made that “the mystery of sound is mysticism,” but I do know that acknowledging the experience music provides without acknowledging the intangible, immeasurable things, and/or ensconcing oneself into a rigid bubble of “science / data, and nothing else,” is folly.
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For sure Bach is the greatest musical experience in my life with Indian classical music and african talking drums ...
«If its turn and roll it is musical but it is better if its speak »-- Anonymus Yoruba drummer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oQJZ2TEVI&t=117s «Drums are talking geometry»--Anonymus mathematician
Alain Connes conference : "the music of shapes" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52ZAPrRbqE&t=527s
Takes a look at Ginger Baker learning drums ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6NaxgmWOp8
now check Cymatics: |
I read many books in my life... The three among the most impressive in science ( at least near 200 illuminating out of the ordinary books in all fields ) One is a book about Egyptology, one about linguistic , the third is about Fractal geometry in french which was the first edition , (1975) ex equo with Cantor theory i studied, but in the last decades i stumbled in 2020 on the book "Nanobrain" by Anirban Bandyopadhyay... Read this 3 parts idea from the first paragraph of the tweeter blog and try to read his tweeter as an introduction... It is not light reading and he wrote English no better than me sorry...😁 But a genius he is which is not so frequent encounter....Dont judge him by his english syntax...He is not an A.I. engineer as most who are working for corporations, he is a pure scientist, all his idea are new from the ground up in artificial consciousness research (not artificial intelligence) And all his ideas are applied technology in the making (as example his fine analysis of microtubules "music" ) ...I did not encountered such a genius for sometime now ( i am old and more stupid than i was in the past then we discover less 😁 )... His general philosophy is completely "musical" and arithmetical metaphorically speaking ... By the way i lost my taste to read young; at 20 i discovered geniuses,( in mathematics, philosophy and mysticism from all cultures) and i never read again by only mere leisure pleasure to kill time but mostly in ectasy with new ideas and new intuition in all fields... I was more interested by someone ideas than by the field he work in ...Even phonology/phonetic can be captivating matter trust me😊... Now if you read him you will discover that the cosmos is musical and even you will discover that mathematics is music more than the reverse more accepted common place fact about music being mathematical ... To be clear mathematics is musical not logical....Sorry for Bertrand Russell here , welcome Kurt Godel ... By the way forget mathematics as only mere formulas, it is contemplation of the source on the mind level... Higher it is mystical experience as such ... https://twitter.com/anirbanbandyo?lang=en
As mathematics , music is indeed a mystery; one is aimed at our mind from the universal heart, the other is aimed at our heart from the universal mind ...
«Nothing really impoertant can be proven»-- Alexander Grothendieck «Logic is useful, not meaningful»--Anonymus depressive logician «We are logical»-- Bill Gates |
I've only known one person who didn't like music....and since he's passed, I'll never know Why.... As for self, I'd go noisily insane if I didn't in some alternate fashion...;) I make up for it by listening to L7 doing "Let's Pretend That We're Dead" LOUD ...because I'm not....quite yet, anyway...*G* .....and give thanks for subs.... "Dance, Kali, dance...." May y'alls' holidays be full of joyful music, of whatever nature it is.... @mahgister ....you just keep typing, good sir...👌👍
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Your right and we all think so... We dont know all what music can deliver , it seems without limits; We know why we love music , it is because there is nothing to hide in music , no lies, but all is so deep we cannot fathom it ... Music is life itself ...A complete mystery which walk inside us and beside us...
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I like to think of music as the universal language. It's the common thread running through all people and cultures since before recorded history. Each may have its unique style, but through the centuries and its evolution, music's message has never changed; music speaks what words cannot. Or you know, what @jpwarren58 said.
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Well said @mahgister and you describe our endless ignorance well. However, just because we are ignorant ("I know that I dont know"...) does not mean we should not or cannot try to improve
and thanks @bolong for sharing. |
Every sound has a form associated with it and vice versa. In some eastern traditions and even in the native traditions of the Americas, sound was intricately used as ’one of the many’ tools to evolve this human casing in consciousness/evolve it to its ultimate potential. What is this ultimate potential? Well, some of you good ol’ boys know Jesus. Jesus was born here as a regular ol’ carpenter, y’know? But, "something" happened to him and he blossomed, became "God like"..."God himself". The Buddha...he was a born a regular ol’ spoilt prince...but then, something happened to him and he became "God like"..."God himself". These 2 are the more "popular" ones. But, there have been many and some are still currently alive in the world...the "God like" ones. They are not gonna come out and tell you anything/become "popular"....because you know/remember what y’all did to Jesus? Anyways, such potential exists within all of you and can remain dormant for many a wasted lifetime, unexplored. Some of you are probably nearing closer to the end of your limited lifespans, i.e., time & energy are limited resources. For some, life needs to give you many many beatings before you come to your senses, possibly align yourselves that way. Anyways....if not in this one....better luck next time ( exploring higher possibilities)....or the one after....or the one after....or the one after...or the one after...
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You are right... I reacted too seriously , my only excuse is that this question of the OP matter to me a lot ... I will then ask for forgiveness to mazian and completely apologize... Sometimes i behave like an idiot and felt that i am always dead serious in front of students ...I am ashamed to confess that it is not the first time my ego win over me...😁 I wish mazian will understand my stupidity and go over my limitations.. Humor make life better especially here and sometimes i takes question way too seriously ... By the way i am ashamed of my post now but i will let it here as a reminder ... Anyway i wish him the best Christmas possible and a good health to him and his family ... And for sure thanks to you
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If i can motivate you to read any of the things i suggested i will enjoy my typing .. If you are such dude able only to throw free sarcasm and are unable to think and answer anything about my post content , yes , my typing could be a waste for you and i could be fool ... But perhaps you are not the only "smart" dude reading my post and perhaps my post can be useful to at least one person ... I dont know ... Try yourself to type a page with some content about this thread question and video ... I will read it and answer it ...😊 Are you able to do this? Or throwing cheap sarcasm is your way of living and your way of existing because you had nothing else to say positive for others or about others ?
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When Plato had written : "Let no one ignorant of geometry enter"He was remembering Pythagoras...And his ideas about music and numbers or ratio... There is a deep reason for that... So deep , it makes more sense today than in the days of Plato... For the founder of non commutative geometry, Alain Connes , geometry and even numbers are music... For the first designer of artificial brain and consciousness in India working in Japan in his book "nanobrain" it is also such ... Science taught us to pounder and perceive mysteries as indicated Goethe in his reflections about his method in science , not to reduce them as philistines do , to trivial questions with trivial solutions by saying that mysteries are mere already answered and settled questions ... What this philistines forget is learning how to perceive phenomena anew and in a new light ... |
Mijostyn you are so desperately trivial and predictive...😁 Nevermind our opinions it is better to motivate people than always claiming especially when it is false : "it is only that" ...
The advantage is social and spiritual... As social animal we must decode speech and the associated "music" to synchonize individuals and the group...Human produces sound and music not only with the mouth but with all the body and dancing and playing members of the body physical and social ... And Spiritually it is advantageous to like music and learn it because it is a deep way to know ourself as individual and member of a group and finally part of humanity and at the end participant of the cosmos ...
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Sound stay a mystery in spite of all derived technology we enjoy... No universal hearing theory exist for the time being... And there is many deep problems bordering on mysteries with sound... And we are as a body a mass of vibrating waters and electrical vibrations across a huge range of Hertz scale ...
The real mystery is not our love for music by the way ... Not surprizing at all that we love music , and the question what is it in nature that makes us so much loving music is simple : our own resonating body on all scale of vibrations with the cosmos ... Our brain is an orchestra but the maestro and composer is not in it ...We learn how to learn by synchronizing our internal rythms with the cosmos rythms ...this process is described well by a genius in India working with Penrose and Hameroff but developing his own ideas, read this dude books : It is the more accessible one of the three main books in pure mathematics i know about this mystery : https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2638015/edit The mathematical basis of our self learning process is known already... It is the distribution of prime numbers whih is the GROUND but this distribution is a deep mystery the deepest one in mathematics and related also to music ( see Alain Connes the music of shapes on youtube ) ..
By the way Bolong is right ...😊 And this youtube video is exactly right on all counts...I already seen it and put it in one of my thread so true it was..😊
By the way all surhuman great mathematicians in history , not our regular professors, are spiritual and mystic ... It is easy to demonstrate ... But it will take a long post ... Mathematics is more musical than logical... In fact there is no logic in mathematic... We use logic as a means to taught mathematic in a linear way and in function of our actual state of knowledge ... Pure beauty and pure truth is musical not logical, it exceed logic as the ocean poured in a glass of water overflow all bounds of the glass ...
As said the great mathematician Alexander Grothendieck, also a poet : «Nothing really important can be proved ». this sentence this maxim was aimed not only for mathematics but for anything in life ... The second greatest mathematician of the century perhaps , Cantor , wrote that « the essence of Mathematics is pure freedom and creativity ».. Now take these two sentences together to understand what they means together... They means that in mathematics as in life some deep problem cannot be solved in the past paradigm, as the parallell postulate , or the question of the actual infinite, for example , we must not trying to solve the problem with a demonstration and a proof which are not possible anyway in these cases; in the opposite we must create first a new world to SHOW the hidden value of these problems as Cantor did , as Lobatchevsky or Bolyai did ... It is no more a mere proof mechanism in a known world first but the heart feeling and the mind feeling about a new unknown world , a new conceptual scheme living as an organism in the spirit of any genius; then first and last more a perception than a logical proof ... Then even in mathematics the feeling and the concepts play together , as in acoustic, and as in music understanding, or as in any human endeavor ... Pure reactive subjective romantism or pure objective materialism are blind alleys, the spiritual takes over the body and the heart together ... As illustrated by Goethe or William Blake in very different ways ...
We cannot prove God exist or anything of real value as love or Beauty, or musical or the depest mathematical truth; but we can create a world for us together where these mysteries can and will be perceived ...
«Any fact need a world where it is possible for it to exist»-- Anonymus Sherlock Holmes reader 🕵️♀️ «All trees dont grow above sand»-- Anonymus botanist |
? What the____ brought that on. Sound is not a mystery. The physics of sound are well documented. There is little if any mysticism in music. It is an extraordinarily structured construct. The only mystery I know of is why humans are universally fond of music. What in nature made it so advantageous for us to like music? |
