The Miller Carbon Story
mglik- For me, even an entry level TT rig surpasses digital. Same here. The story has been told before so was skipped above but the Tehnics SL1700 was in a box in storage for several years- which just happened to be the critical years when CD first came out and replaced LP. So by the time the listening room was being built the assumption was there would be no LP. When Robert Harley said the turntable is the foundation of a high end system it was hard to believe. But this being RH we had to be sure so the Technics was dug out and hooked up and we were blown away to hear it blow away a much more expensive and modern CDP from California Audio Labs. We in this case being literal not royal, the wife was with blown away as well. But this was well before the birth of the Miller Carbon. Before even it was conceived. Call it a first date. Just enough to get me hot to go all the way. Some years after battery power Chris came out with his Verus motor and controller upgrade. The Verus also involved a change from belt to rim drive. This is the motor that can be seen on my system page. It uses a wheel with a notch machined into it, into which an O-ring fits. The motor and feet are designed so the weight of the motor leans the rim drive against the platter. This works, and is an improvement, but also has all kinds of drawbacks. The main one being O-rings all have a little seam or edge that sticks out right where it touches the platter. The trick is to set the motor up away from the turntable but as if it were being used, only with a piece of fine grit sand paper in place of a platter. Run the motor against the sandpaper like this and after a while it winds up nice and smooth. Not perfect but a big improvement over the original motor pod setup. Also another opportunity to tweak and compare and learn the impact and influence of every little thing. |
Dear @njkreb : "
I’m just not sure what would constitute an upgrade. " Weird because in other thread you gave this advise talking of audio room/system: "" tweak it over time "" Normally we make a time to time tweak to our audio room/systems and that " tweak " is to find out some kind of improvement that can gives us a better quality listening enjoyment music sessions. Of course that some times that " tweak " just does not works. Any MUSIC lover as many of us can enjoy MUSIC listening through a FM station in a tunner " every where " we are. MUSIC per sé is an art and as an art wake up human been feelings/emotions and some of us through those tweaks try to achieve a greater enjoyment times. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
northbeach- Terrific idea. If you can make it August 14-15 Rick and Krissy will be here, the whole weekend nothing but listening as we have a bunch of stuff to compare. Vibration control is huge and this will be a beautiful opportunity to get some experienced input, and actually be able to hear for yourself the difference things make. But if not then, any time, for sure. njkrebs- We are over the moon happy with ours. Have been for some time now. Might be hard to believe but far from the "diminishing returns" CW BS the more we do the more excited we get because the improvements just keep coming and are at least as impressive from this level as they were years ago. larry5729- I would think the biggest improvement would be to upgrade the cartridge. The CW again. Patience. We will get there. There must be a reason why people play vinyl. There is. It's called music. artemus_5 - I'm often astounded at those who are so sure of themselves that they have no curiosity. And, in turn, they become know it alls who really know very little...all because they limit themselves by their lack curiosity. Those who have been here enough will know the most common question is "why?" and the most common answer is, "We really don't know." Followed by some say this some say that. All we really know is how it sounds. Sometimes followed by a demonstration of how it sounds. That's another thing Mark Baker told me. He is an engineer by training and perfectly capable of designing whatever he needs to do whatever he wants. He told us he has a great new improvement intended for his motor. Then immediately says, "If it works. We have to test it. Lots of times the designs don't work." There's times he has tried a hundred ideas before finding the one that works. Now that's curiosity! All the best ones are like that, far as I can tell anyway. |
I would think the biggest improvement would be to upgrade the cartridge. Still don't know why people use vinyl. I always thought it to be noisier than a CD player and now streaming is convenient along huge libraries to choose from. The next time I go to the RMAF I will check out vinyl to see if I can hear the difference. There must be a reason why people play vinyl. I am a novice compared to others and it is always interesting to hear what the experts say. Yes, do yourself a favor and listen to a serious turntable rig. Streaming can sound very good these days, but vinyl is still king. Oz |
it’s all about being intentionally curious and learning through trying various upgrades and tweaks Curious. That is often the lacking commodity. I'm often astounded at those who are so sure of themselves that they have no curiosity. And, in turn, they become know it alls who really know very little...all because they limit themselves by their lack curiosity. |
I would think the biggest improvement would be to upgrade the cartridge. Still don't know why people use vinyl. I always thought it to be noisier than a CD player and now streaming is convenient along huge libraries to choose from. The next time I go to the RMAF I will check out vinyl to see if I can hear the difference. There must be a reason why people play vinyl. I am a novice compared to others and it is always interesting to hear what the experts say. |
Hi Chuck: I live in Port Townsend, just retired and am starting my custom furniture boutique company with a focus on living room appropriate furniture built for audiophiles. It'll be a few months before I get my prototypes together, but I'd really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you concerning the same over the fall. Let me know if you are interested. Thanks. Northbeach |
Don’t think MC said it was the best or better than all others. Actually he said it’s all about being intentionally curious and learning through trying various upgrades and tweaks. That is the point of this thread really! Being intentional about getting better sound out of our systems through open minded and relentless improvements. |
Its all about you and your journey of trying to convince people that the cheaper stuff you have is the best out there. Origin makes OK turntables with their rebuilt Rega arms. Again, just like your speakers, just because you talked to somebody doesn't make the equipment the best on the planet or make you seem more of an audiophile. A lot of us have talked to a number of reviewers in the past, I have talked to many at the different CES/RMAF/and other audio shows, not a big deal. If you want to look at some of the best TT's on the planet, check out TechDas, Clearaudio, Brinkman and if you want to go cheaper, check out Kronos and VPI. If you want the best tonearms, check out Graham, VPI, Brinkman, Clearaudio TT series. You really have to stop saying what you have or what you think is the best, it isn't. |
Thanks, edgyhassle. It was very methodical. First a PC. Then a belt. Both of which cost nothing but time. Then the motor. Another small step. Also each step was one change only. Same table, same everything else, so it is clear what does what. It goes on like this. Battery power supply. Same motor, only the power supply changes. Ability to run battery connected or disconnected from AC charger. So effect of RFI in AC is demonstrated and learned. Graham arm is upgraded to Origin Live Conqueror. Same table. Same Benz Glider. Only the arm changed- and it was YUGE! 👍 Upgraded the VTA. Upgraded the upgrade to the VTA. Built our own calibration, added that, enables precisely repeatable VTA. On and on. One methodical step at a time. No one single thing was a game changer. Each one simply moved the dial one tiny little bit more the way we want it to go. Another thing Mark Baker told me, all the little things, they really add up. |
The thing I enjoy most about your quest MC is the path. You weren't jumping around throwing lot's of spaghetti at all the walls. One pot of spaghetti at one wall. It seems methodical, calmly, observing and assessing each step. So many variables for us to experience and experiment with. Thanks for sharing. |
Very beautiful piece of gear. Did you experiment with different loading of the platter? Thanks. Matter of fact both the black and cocobolo platters were clearly superior. But the black was solid black like a hockey puck and cocobolo while beautiful hides the carbon fiber, they just do not look good together and so we had to pass. Lead shot spinning really looks the treat. Also we are leery of messing up the fine balance Chris achieved. He measured equal amounts of lead shot. Balance is crucial. Bigger and less risky fish to fry. One of our first mods was the bearing. Chris used an inverted bearing design. Ours was an early version, with a stainless steel ball bearing riding on a teflon coated brass thrust plate. Every tiny little thing matters. This thread is about learning, so hopefully others can avoid a few mistakes. What I didn’t know then but do know now, just being immersed in oil alone does not guarantee lubrication. It does not by itself guarantee there will be no metal on metal contact. If the weight of the platter and bearing on the tiny little thrust plate contact patch is too great then the psi will itself prevent lubrication. Platter mass for speed stability turns out to be at odds with bearing lubrication for smoothness! Just one of the little tidbits picked up from Mark Baker today. Kind of thing makes you go, "D’oh!" But Baker was today. This was 17 years ago. Now it all makes sense. Thrust plate wear stops when the area of wear is enough the psi drops to allow the lube to work. Lesson learned: turntables are nowhere near as simple as they look. If something like adding platter mass appears simple, rest assured there are unintended consequences galore. |
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Feel free to PM me for a referral of a machinist who happens to be an audiophile. He recently machined me a platter for my Teres bearing (milled from a solid aluminum billet with drilled chambers for lead-loading and a Delrin top fastened by brass screws). It weighs in at 35 lbs., up from my original 13 lb. solid acrylic platter sourced from Chris at Teres. Dropped my measured wow and flutter by 50%. He mods platters such as yours. If you are doing the mill work yourself, please post pix of your project somewhere. I’d love to check it out. |
Not damping the platter, no. However a lot of different clamps and clamping methods were tried. Also three different platters. Chris Brady made 4 different platters- solid acrylic, lead-filled acrylic, a black resin type material, and various lead-filled versions made of stabilized hardwoods such as cocobolo. The difference between platters is clear and easy to hear. My favorite of and the one I have been using for years now is my clamp made from BDR Shelf material. Combined with a carbon fiber washer it forces the record down onto the platter from the outside edge. About a year ago I added fO.q tape to the washer, and around the perimeter of the clamp. This is the best I have been able to come up with. More recent experience with springs and isolation has me re-thinking a lot of this however. |
DJ was a commodities trader on the Chicago exchange. He moved into fabricating high performance carbon fiber parts, specializing in custom work on America’s Cup racing boats. Carbon fiber is inherently vibration damping owing to its composite structure. DJ was an avid audiophile and started experimenting, eventually developing the Black Diamond Racing Cones, Shelf, etc. So now you know where the Racing in BDR comes from. Suddenly, in the prime of life, lung cancer got him in 2012. https://www.schmidtandbartelt.com/obituaries/detail.aspx?id=5017 As good as it was, the approach DJ was taking to vibration control turned out to be just one small part of the problem. Ultimately it seems the materials he was using were great at certain aspects, but wind up channeling vibration into another area of the spectrum. This was hard to hear at the time, because it was compared to other things back then much more successful overall. When compared to springs however it quickly becomes apparent his approach imparts an unnatural hardness or glare. A much more sophisticated approach is called for. The part above is only the birth of the Miller Carbon. It was initially driven by the Teres motor pod. This pod was upgraded to battery power. It was at this time a belt drive table. Upgrading to battery power was my second experience with improved sound quality coming from nothing more than improving the power to the motor. |
Around this time I was working with DJ Casser and his Black Diamond Racing Shelf. His Shelf material was so much more effective than acrylic, it had to make a better plinth too. more about Black Diamond Racing founded by DJ Casser |
