The Miller Carbon Story

Dewey Cox. Different connotations. Think about it.

I prefer the Dewey Cox story. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zcrb1ff1xs

Thanks. Spacialking might be interested, the Verus motor alone is a worthy upgrade. The bearing is brand new now as well.

Late 1990’s. I was trying different things and his stuff was so good I had to call and guess my enthusiasm made up for not having an actual business and so he let me be his distributor in Seattle. Which really amounted to showing off to the guys at the local audio club, taking them around to try in their systems.

I was young, it was fun. Didn’t pay anything, certainly not enough to cover all my time visiting all these guys. How many people make house calls to demo $60 worth of Cones? 😂 But it was cool, I got to see a lot of systems, learned a lot, massive experience.

So working with him was all over the phone, and working with his products. He sent me some stuff nobody else got, which is how I learned it isn’t really the carbon fiber, that is almost entirely cosmetic and makes for a nice story. When I say over and over again how the "reasons" manufacturers state for performance are best regarded as nothing but stories, it comes from experience. Lots of experience. Not just DJ. Lots of em. All the same. Stories.

Audiophiles take the stories so seriously. Psych!

Back then I had a lot less experience and confidence. The idea for the Miller Carbon turntable came from using the Basis and realizing it was nothing more than a board with some holes in it. If the Basis could be that good with acrylic, which is nowhere near as good as BDR, think what it could be made out of BDR!

Being young, naive, and trusting, I discussed my ideas with DJ. Couldn’t get him to make me one. Finally decided to just build my own from a BDR Source Shelf.

That was the beginning of the end of my working with DJ Casser. First he started telling me his material was too hard, couldn’t possibly be cut except with special tools. Then even if I did the dust would kill me. When I say manufacturers exaggerate, here we go. Cuts up just fine with band saw, table saw, router, you name it. Sands out real nice too. Just look at it. Anyone but chakster can see how beautiful it is.

The end of working with DJ came at CES. I was in the Talon room with my prototype turntable on display. A friend came in said, "Hey have you seen the BDR room? DJ ripped off your turntable!" Went there and sure enough, everything I had told him that he had pretended no interest in doing, he had stolen and built into a real impressive looking table!

So that was my experience working with DJ Casser.

They may find that perplexing but to me it is understandable and indeed a major reason in choosing Origin Live. That was really the over-arching theme or reason for this whole discussion, to try and relate some of what was learned in order to better understand what can be.

The other main point, maybe even more important, is to encourage people to actually try and do some of this stuff. Because it is one thing to talk and think, but really we learn by doing. Without doing, anyone can talk themselves into anything. See it all the time. Narrative is the scourge of our times.

Doing produces results that cannot be denied. When your Sovereign is silent, well that is just a fact anyone can hear. It should be plain as day the turntable and arm have no way of knowing what to silence and what to pass as music. So if you hear silence from one table and not another you can be sure, absolutely certain, which one is doing it right.

The real reason then they are perplexed is they bought into a false narrative. We will know soon enough. The Sovereign is in LA customs. We will know soon enough.

I wonder how others feel about attacking someone personally like that over something clearly not even ready to be sold yet?

drrsutliff-

Love my Sovereign Mk3-2 dual tonearm TT. I expect you will enjoy the MkIV as well as the Enterprise MkIV.

Thanks. Initial impression, to judge by reviews and comments such as yours, Origin Live is another outstanding UK performer that has somehow managed to fly under the radar here in the States. We will see.

When you say your OL tables have always perplexed some in your audio group I have a hunch why that might be but curious to know what it is that you think they find puzzling?

Funny you should mention, this thread is sort of a dual-purpose. People have asked me about it, and kept getting put off. Until now, when a new Origin Live Sovereign MkIV and Enterprise MkIV arm are due here next week. 😍😍

Perfect segue, as you will probably notice every step of the Miller Carbon story was in a way slowly leading me to Mark Baker's approach.  

For sure the Miller Carbon is a fine table, and should provide years of listening pleasure to whoever buys it. For me it is as you say time to move on (after 17 years!) and everything learned on this table gives me a deep appreciation for what Mark is doing with the Sovereign. 

Or so it looks in reviews and video anyway. Soon we will see!  
https://youtu.be/8ZkOzh9GFHk?t=5

Right. As Spock might say, "A dazzling display of illogic."

Where was I? Oh yes, the turntable.  

At some point last year someone around here- if anyone knows who it was please chime in so they can get due credit - was talking about how great TA-102 fO.q tape works. So we got some and tried it. Sure enough, even a small piece makes a noticeable improvement.

This special tape is designed to eliminate micro-vibrations by turning them into heat through using the piezo-electric effect. This is different than most other materials that work on a more mechanical level. This tape is pliable but not soft, so it preserves dynamics. It does however remove a layer of grunge, leaving midrange and treble quite a bit clearer.

It was first used on the tone arm base, then arm tube and counterweight, and motor pod. Finally it was used on the bearing.

The Miller Carbon was originally designed around the idea of the best approach being to hold the bearing as rigidly as possible. So it was fastened directly to the BDR Shelf on both sides. After learning more about isolation it was thought maybe this tape would be an improvement.

A couple pieces were cut. One was cut to fit like a gasket where the bearing mounts to the plinth from above. More were used on the nut that fastens from below. Together this has the bearing held to the plinth with this tape in between. This was a very noticeable improvement for such a small amount of tape.

Another small piece went over the washer that fits around the spindle, with some more around the perimeter of the record clamp. Altogether these cleaned up a fair amount of grunge revealing greater detail.

These were the last few things to be done to the table itself. When first springs and then Townshend Pods were used under the table, and to excellent effect, that was pretty much the end of my old philosophy of how to approach the whole thing.

Not that it didn't get quite good results. The table as it is now really does sound quite good. It is more a situation of feeling like this is about as far as we can take it. Instead of trying to hold everything as rigidly firm as possible the experience with Podiums under speakers and Pods under components is saying it is better to isolate each thing in such a way that it can dissipate energy without inducing ringing in everything nearby. Another way of putting it is to let the vibrational energy dissipate more rapidly.

So, a lot of learning. A lot of changes, spread out over 17 years.

Everything by ear. There are times and places for everything. Amateurs messing with measurements is more often than not like a monkey trying to fix a helicopter with a ball peen hammer. Sorry. It just is.

Not that it isn't good for a lot of entertaining word salad. We had a thread one time went on and on and on, and all the guy was trying to do was check speaker sensitivity. One would think a simple dB measurement would be a slam dunk. Not even. The whole brain trust of this whole site couldn't agree on it even after a month of back and forth. So good luck.

Or on the other hand, make one change, either sounds better or doesn't, and the result is known to a certainty usually within a matter of seconds. Horses for courses.

Okay sure. But what good would reading up do if the reading up misses the point and jumps to a lot of unwarranted conclusions? I didn’t choose the inferior platter. You can’t find anything here to indicate that. Matter of fact the lead shot platter I bought was the best one available at the time. The demo with cocobolo and delrin was years later. Go ahead, search back and see where you can substantiate your pre-determined narrative. Not in anything I wrote. If you are gonna read up, read up.

Bearing, ditto. All of which is beside the point. There never was any indication this thread was about "how to do it" or "this is the best" the thread is simply a discussion of how this table came to be and got to where it is. Along the way people interested in learning can maybe learn things here and there. If they are interested in learning. Not showing off.

This is not a BSD contest. When you make your system better it does not make mine worse, and vice versa. We all can learn. We can even learn by others mistakes. One of the best ways (and least expensive) to improve your writing is to read up, question everything, and most importantly, think!

Yes the Blackhawk review is coming ozzy62! I was on the phone yesterday with Dave Thompson gleaning more fascinating tidbits to sprinkle on my already sparkling prose. It’s just with the Raven now the Melody needs to find a new home, and this thread is the last (for me) curtain call for the Miller Carbon, next weekend is the big Audio Extravaganza at Chez Chaz with the new... oops man that was a close one almost let the cat out of the bag! 🤣😂

News flash rauliruegas, it is all subjective opinion with no true real foundation/facts that prove anything. You may think otherwise but guess what? That is just your opinion without any true real foundation/facts that can prove it in any way. You can measure, but your measurements are only valuable to you, and only because you have faith in them. 

There is nothing fortunate, or unfortunate, about any of this. It is what it is. 

The story has been told before but bears repeating. One day back around 1992 the Technics SL1700 bought in 1976 and stored for nearly a decade was dug out of the garage and hooked up. The Stanton 681EEE cantilever was bent, but straightened out pretty good with pliers. This was hooked up, using the crap patch cord hard wired into that table, to the phono stage in a vintage 1974 Kenwood KA-8004.

The Technics had a natural warmth and inviting ease the Cal Audio Labs CDP couldn’t touch. When the wife came home she asked what sounds so good. She couldn’t see and had no way of knowing it was a record. Assumed it was CD. When she saw what was going on she was shocked. How can it sound so much better, she wondered?

Year or so later listening to Jennifer Warnes on Basis/Graham/Glider/PH3SE she said in awe, it is so quiet! This was surprising since everyone always assumes digital is the quiet one. Then she explained, the noise with vinyl is ticks and pops, but between the ticks and pops is music. The CD has no ticks and pops, the whole thing is noise. There is no music.

Some audiophiles just need to try and get their minds around this. Yes indeed there are an unbelievably long list of sonic attributes one can listen for and hear. Among those are ones that some of us hear as noise, while others pretend the same noise is music.

Digital is noise. Analog is music. If my wife can understand, why can’t audiophiles?

Microfiber dust off the platter beginning every session. Damp cloth tone arm every month or so. Every once in a while wipe off the shelf and granite. 

The next one will probably get a proper acrylic cover. Floating, hinged off the wall, no part of it touching any part of the rack or table open or closed. 

Diminishing returns is more a phantom than a thing. More often than not all it means is doing the wrong thing. Because over the years it always has turned out doing the right thing is never a lot for a little, in fact it is usually quite the opposite.

So for example the motor was upgraded from the original pod to battery power and then a big $2500 jump to the Verus motor and controller. This was a diminishing return in the sense it was about what the platter, bearing and plinth cost, so nearly double the cost, but not double the performance. But on the other hand looking around, what other turntable was there that could be bought that would be better? 

So a good worthwhile improvement, but yes a diminishing return. However this was not the case when going from the Graham 2.2 to the Origin Live Conqueror Mk3. That improvement was huge! So there was no diminishing return. 

We could even go off-topic onto speakers, where Tekton Moab are far better speakers than the Talon Khorus they replaced, yet the incremental cost after selling the Khorus was so small no way it could be called diminishing. 

Same sort of thing again with the Raven Blackhawk (review to come) that cost more than the Melody integrated but is so much better no way it could be called diminishing return.

Sure everyone can find all kinds of overpriced stuff where the return is not only diminishing it is outright negative. All that does is prove my point. If the return is diminishing it is more likely due to some fault in system evaluation or component selection than some iron law of audio.

The first arm used on the Miller Carbon was the Graham 2.0, with a Benz Micro Glider. Then the Graham was upgraded to 2.2 with the new more massive knob that holds the point the arm pivots on. There was also a different weight silicone fluid as I recall.   

This was a fairly minor upgrade, not really worth the money frankly, although maybe so because back then it was still pretty exciting to hear such simple things make any difference at all. So, more learning: Even something as seemingly minor as the viscosity of a few drops of silicone does make a difference you can hear.  

This also was a change to the arm itself. Lots of people ask what does what, how much does it matter, and so on. Well, we learn by doing.  

Eventually the Glider was replaced with Benz Ruby. A clear case of the same only better. Which was exactly what was wanted. Wasn't looking to change. Just looking for more of the same, only better. 

The same Graham arm had now been used on two different turntables, Basis and Teres, or more if counting by the mods made to the tables while the arm remained the same. But those two tables anyway.  

The Graham requires an interconnect. Experience with this led to questioning the wisdom of all those extra connections. The Graham had cartridge pins, wand contacts, DIN connector, RCA to phono stage. Each one of those connections is also a solder joint. So add them all up: 11 connections! Compared to only 4 or 5 if the arm is hard wired.  

Cartridge output is exceedingly faint and fragile. All these connections cannot possibly be good. Yeah sure Ted Denney had made me some custom phono interconnects and they were mighty fine. But, still....  

So we wound up with the next big upgrade, the arm that is on there now, the Origin Live Conqueror.  

This was easily the biggest single upgrade yet! The cost increase, once factoring in the interconnect which we have to do to be fair, was not that much. But the performance improvement sure was! This was not just an upgrade. From Glider to Ruby was an upgrade. The motor stuff was upgrades. This was something entirely different. This was another realm.  

larry5729, you were asking about the cartridge? Now you have your answer: nope! A good arm is a greater upgrade than any cartridge. Dollar for dollar, put your money into a good arm. 

This was proven yet again later on when the Ruby was replaced with Koetsu Black Goldline. Yes indeed the Koetsu is a fine cartridge. Wonderful! Fricken love that thing! Totally. But really, it was just another upgrade. A nice one to be sure. Have we mentioned how much we love our Koetsu??! But where the arm was transformative, the cartridge was merely evolutionary.   

Always hard to objectively compare these things. Put it this way. The Graham 2.2 with Ted Denney custom IC and Koetsu, against the Conqueror with Benz Ruby, are pretty darn close in total cost. Just don't see anyone listening to them side by side picking the Koetsu. Not on that arm. Seriously doubt it would even be necessary to mount the Ruby. Probably everyone would pick the Glider on the Conqueror.  

The arm makes that much difference. When it is a good arm.  

mglik-

 For me, even an entry level TT rig surpasses digital.
Sure the relative SQ is low but the physicality of the vibration of the stylus is an organic sound.

Same here. The story has been told before so was skipped above but the Tehnics SL1700 was in a box in storage for several years- which just happened to be the critical years when CD first came out and replaced LP. So by the time the listening room was being built the assumption was there would be no LP. When Robert Harley said the turntable is the foundation of a high end system it was hard to believe.

But this being RH we had to be sure so the Technics was dug out and hooked up and we were blown away to hear it blow away a much more expensive and modern CDP from California Audio Labs. We in this case being literal not royal, the wife was with blown away as well.

But this was well before the birth of the Miller Carbon. Before even it was conceived. Call it a first date. Just enough to get me hot to go all the way.

Some years after battery power Chris came out with his Verus motor and controller upgrade. The Verus also involved a change from belt to rim drive. This is the motor that can be seen on my system page. It uses a wheel with a notch machined into it, into which an O-ring fits. The motor and feet are designed so the weight of the motor leans the rim drive against the platter.

This works, and is an improvement, but also has all kinds of drawbacks. The main one being O-rings all have a little seam or edge that sticks out right where it touches the platter. The trick is to set the motor up away from the turntable but as if it were being used, only with a piece of fine grit sand paper in place of a platter. Run the motor against the sandpaper like this and after a while it winds up nice and smooth.

Not perfect but a big improvement over the original motor pod setup. Also another opportunity to tweak and compare and learn the impact and influence of every little thing.

northbeach- Terrific idea. If you can make it August 14-15 Rick and Krissy will be here, the whole weekend nothing but listening as we have a bunch of stuff to compare. Vibration control is huge and this will be a beautiful opportunity to get some experienced input, and actually be able to hear for yourself the difference things make. But if not then, any time, for sure.

njkrebs- We are over the moon happy with ours. Have been for some time now. Might be hard to believe but far from the "diminishing returns" CW BS the more we do the more excited we get because the improvements just keep coming and are at least as impressive from this level as they were years ago. 

larry5729-

 I would think the biggest improvement would be to upgrade the cartridge.

The CW again. Patience. We will get there.

There must be a reason why people play vinyl.

There is. It's called music.

artemus_5 - 

I'm often astounded at those who are so sure of themselves that they have no curiosity. And, in turn, they become know it alls who really know very little...all because they limit themselves by their lack curiosity.

Those who have been here enough will know the most common question is "why?" and the most common answer is, "We really don't know." Followed by some say this some say that. All we really know is how it sounds. Sometimes followed by a demonstration of how it sounds. 

That's another thing Mark Baker told me. He is an engineer by training and perfectly capable of designing whatever he needs to do whatever he wants. He told us he has a great new improvement intended for his motor. Then immediately says, "If it works. We have to test it. Lots of times the designs don't work." There's times he has tried a hundred ideas before finding the one that works. Now that's curiosity! 

All the best ones are like that, far as I can tell anyway. 

All the same, thanks.

Thanks, edgyhassle. It was very methodical. First a PC. Then a belt. Both of which cost nothing but time. Then the motor. Another small step. Also each step was one change only. Same table, same everything else, so it is clear what does what.

It goes on like this. Battery power supply. Same motor, only the power supply changes. Ability to run battery connected or disconnected from AC charger. So effect of RFI in AC is demonstrated and learned.

Graham arm is upgraded to Origin Live Conqueror. Same table. Same Benz Glider. Only the arm changed- and it was YUGE! 👍 Upgraded the VTA. Upgraded the upgrade to the VTA. Built our own calibration, added that, enables precisely repeatable VTA. On and on. One methodical step at a time.

No one single thing was a game changer. Each one simply moved the dial one tiny little bit more the way we want it to go. Another thing Mark Baker told me, all the little things, they really add up.

Very beautiful piece of gear. Did you experiment with different loading of the platter?

Thanks. Matter of fact both the black and cocobolo platters were clearly superior. But the black was solid black like a hockey puck and cocobolo while beautiful hides the carbon fiber, they just do not look good together and so we had to pass. Lead shot spinning really looks the treat.

Also we are leery of messing up the fine balance Chris achieved. He measured equal amounts of lead shot. Balance is crucial. Bigger and less risky fish to fry.

One of our first mods was the bearing. Chris used an inverted bearing design. Ours was an early version, with a stainless steel ball bearing riding on a teflon coated brass thrust plate.

Every tiny little thing matters. This thread is about learning, so hopefully others can avoid a few mistakes. What I didn’t know then but do know now, just being immersed in oil alone does not guarantee lubrication. It does not by itself guarantee there will be no metal on metal contact. If the weight of the platter and bearing on the tiny little thrust plate contact patch is too great then the psi will itself prevent lubrication. Platter mass for speed stability turns out to be at odds with bearing lubrication for smoothness!

Just one of the little tidbits picked up from Mark Baker today. Kind of thing makes you go, "D’oh!"

But Baker was today. This was 17 years ago. Now it all makes sense. Thrust plate wear stops when the area of wear is enough the psi drops to allow the lube to work.

Lesson learned: turntables are nowhere near as simple as they look. If something like adding platter mass appears simple, rest assured there are unintended consequences galore.

Not damping the platter, no. However a lot of different clamps and clamping methods were tried. Also three different platters. Chris Brady made 4 different platters- solid acrylic, lead-filled acrylic, a black resin type material, and various lead-filled versions made of stabilized hardwoods such as cocobolo. The difference between platters is clear and easy to hear. 

My favorite of and the one I have been using for years now is my clamp made from BDR Shelf material. Combined with a carbon fiber washer it forces the record down onto the platter from the outside edge. About a year ago I added fO.q tape to the washer, and around the perimeter of the clamp. This is the best I have been able to come up with.  

More recent experience with springs and isolation has me re-thinking a lot of this however. 

DJ was a commodities trader on the Chicago exchange. He moved into fabricating high performance carbon fiber parts, specializing in custom work on America’s Cup racing boats. Carbon fiber is inherently vibration damping owing to its composite structure. DJ was an avid audiophile and started experimenting, eventually developing the Black Diamond Racing Cones, Shelf, etc.

So now you know where the Racing in BDR comes from.

Suddenly, in the prime of life, lung cancer got him in 2012. https://www.schmidtandbartelt.com/obituaries/detail.aspx?id=5017

As good as it was, the approach DJ was taking to vibration control turned out to be just one small part of the problem. Ultimately it seems the materials he was using were great at certain aspects, but wind up channeling vibration into another area of the spectrum. This was hard to hear at the time, because it was compared to other things back then much more successful overall. When compared to springs however it quickly becomes apparent his approach imparts an unnatural hardness or glare. A much more sophisticated approach is called for.

The part above is only the birth of the Miller Carbon. It was initially driven by the Teres motor pod. This pod was upgraded to battery power. It was at this time a belt drive table.

Upgrading to battery power was my second experience with improved sound quality coming from nothing more than improving the power to the motor.