What made me stop in my tracks was the new GT8 is air cooled with no turbo...... Got to trade mine in now.
Millercarbon's Mega Moab Mod Meander
One of the all time great automotive engineers, Norbert Singer, was a key player in every one of the 16 Porsche LeMans victories from 1970 to 1998. His dominance was such that at one point Porsche had won LeMans more than all other marques combined. This was all accomplished by building on the already solid foundation of Porsche production models. The air cooled flat 12 in the 917 was really two flat sixes combined to make 12. This car so dominated motorsport the rules had to be changed to stop it!
So Norbert Singer modified Porsche production technology to extract the absolute most for racing. His legacy is today’s Singer Vehicle Design https://singervehicledesign.com Norbert doesn’t make for a very good car name so they called it Singer. What is a Singer? It is a modified Porsche. It is in essence a hot rod. What Norbert Singer did was make the most hot rod racing Porsche. What Singer does is take that to the next level, capturing every aspect of Porsche right down to excellence of design and aesthetics.
I am not anywhere near the level of Singer. But that is the spirit of what we are doing: taking an already world-class design and hot-rodding it to be even better. Well, better for me anyway- or so we hope!
The early modders started with substituting off the shelf parts to get more power or less weight. That is pretty much all we are doing here. Would be cool if some day people are doing this with a lot more sophisticated approach. Maybe they will. Maybe even I will. For now though we have the current crossover project.
My approach is pretty simple: better parts sound better.
This lesson was learned back in the late 90’s with Linaeum Model 10 speakers. The designer had a new tweeter and told me how to modify the crossover for it. Simple mod, one cap, one resistor. Bought the parts from Radio Shack, put it together, sounded like crap. Absolute horrid crap! Called him up, he said those parts are crap. Said Musicap, Vishay. But they measure the same? Just do it. I did. It worked. Even though they measure exactly the same, the sound difference is off the charts.
Even though they measure exactly the same. There is a lesson here. For those willing to learn.
So this is the essence of it: Eric Alexander has made a speaker the equivalent of a Porsche 911. Even better: an affordable Porsche 911! But after a while with my 911, after learning what makes it drive and feel the way it does, it was only natural to change the shocks and torsion bar and other items to bring out even more of what I like so much about the 911.
That is what we are doing here. Hot-rodding a speaker. Thank you Rick for the metaphor!
The parts are on order. Next week the fun begins!
So Norbert Singer modified Porsche production technology to extract the absolute most for racing. His legacy is today’s Singer Vehicle Design https://singervehicledesign.com Norbert doesn’t make for a very good car name so they called it Singer. What is a Singer? It is a modified Porsche. It is in essence a hot rod. What Norbert Singer did was make the most hot rod racing Porsche. What Singer does is take that to the next level, capturing every aspect of Porsche right down to excellence of design and aesthetics.
I am not anywhere near the level of Singer. But that is the spirit of what we are doing: taking an already world-class design and hot-rodding it to be even better. Well, better for me anyway- or so we hope!
The early modders started with substituting off the shelf parts to get more power or less weight. That is pretty much all we are doing here. Would be cool if some day people are doing this with a lot more sophisticated approach. Maybe they will. Maybe even I will. For now though we have the current crossover project.
My approach is pretty simple: better parts sound better.
This lesson was learned back in the late 90’s with Linaeum Model 10 speakers. The designer had a new tweeter and told me how to modify the crossover for it. Simple mod, one cap, one resistor. Bought the parts from Radio Shack, put it together, sounded like crap. Absolute horrid crap! Called him up, he said those parts are crap. Said Musicap, Vishay. But they measure the same? Just do it. I did. It worked. Even though they measure exactly the same, the sound difference is off the charts.
Even though they measure exactly the same. There is a lesson here. For those willing to learn.
So this is the essence of it: Eric Alexander has made a speaker the equivalent of a Porsche 911. Even better: an affordable Porsche 911! But after a while with my 911, after learning what makes it drive and feel the way it does, it was only natural to change the shocks and torsion bar and other items to bring out even more of what I like so much about the 911.
That is what we are doing here. Hot-rodding a speaker. Thank you Rick for the metaphor!
The parts are on order. Next week the fun begins!
185 responses Add your response
With the Linaeum mod the difference was night and day. The kind of experience guaranteed to shatter anyone who thinks all you need are measurements. Granted, the difference was huge. I knew nothing back then and so bought a package of ten resistors for a dollar at Radio Shack. The caps were probably more like 5 for $2. Absolute crap. BUT think about it- this is exactly the same stuff you see inside the vast majority of components! The sound with Musicap and Vishay was so much more clean and clear and liquid it was mind-boggling. But then that was going from utter crap to very good. Not absolute best just very good. Knowing how much difference these things make, when Talon came out with the X crossover I went for that upgrade. This time the improvement was not as immense as before because we were starting from a higher level. Would be nice to know how high but the stock crossover was potted and glued in to where nothing was visible! Still, it was clear they used some pretty high quality parts, all point to point soldered direct to each other. So this will now be my third crossover upgrade, and by far the most ambitious. With the others the designers told me exactly what to do. With this one I already have the Upgrade Option crossover. There is no higher level to just order and connect like with Talon. So a fair amount of work has gone into figuring out what parts to use and how exactly to go about this. Eric has done a really good job of building a crossover that is very much like the rest of the Moab, very high performance for the money. Still, there is a reason people like Encore and Ulf. There are always higher quality parts and those speakers make good use of them. That is basically what I am doing here, only focused on the crossover. The experience of hearing past crossover upgrades combined with the things I have learned doing this one has me thinking that as good as these things sound now they are gonna be even better- or else I sure wouldn't be going to this much trouble and expense! |
What Porsche do you have? When younger, I owned 4. A ‘78 SC Targa, ‘94 Carrara Cab, and 2 ‘90 C4 964s. Think my favorite was the SC. Although the C4s were land cruisers. Like a fast cat. You have certainly made an incredible case for your Tectons. As many, I wish they were better looking. But I do marketing for Tetra Speakers and own their $33k 606s. I hope you are getting the input of Eric on the xover mods. As you know, those are the most central element of a speaker. My designer at Tetra is brilliant at xover design. Even his entry level has the same “reality” as his top line. Herbie Hancock owns 7 pair of the entry level 120U. And a pair of my 606s in his studio. |
'79 SC. Being a PCA Driving Instructor allowed me to drive a lot of different Porsches. One time I drove a Targa so exactly like my SC the only differences being Targa, and my SC had the 75 Carrera wing and chin spoiler. That is how I learned two things: those two aero bits have a huge effect on handling even at 60-70mph, and it is not for nothing they call the Targa "flexible flyer"! Terrific car, but oh the body flex! Totally agree, the SC was a home run. Those cars back then, they could go very fast but only if you really knew how to drive them. It was a huge thrill largely because of that sense of being right on the edge, at the same time as the car was saying it was made to be right on the edge. Fantastic! I tried, but Eric I think is way too busy to be consulting with modders. Also an unusually large proportion of what makes Tekton so good is a technology hardly anyone but him seems to understand. Compared to him everyone else is simply using higher quality more expensive parts. His technology is so advanced he is able to beat them with off the shelf and MDF. So he is not about to go giving that away by telling anyone exactly how to do it. On the other hand like Rick said, this is like Porsche making a car so terrific guys want to use it as a base for making something already incredibly good even better. So it is in a way flattering to be in that category. But at the same time I can understand. Porsche is not about to go telling everyone all their aero secrets. They are happy to see people personalize and modify but the good stuff they keep to themselves. In any case I am not at all looking to design anything. This is nothing more than the speaker equivalent of better tires, shocks, and K&N. Okay maybe I chipped it. lol! |
Had a 1995 turbo. Last air cooled. Quite a ride but scary fast at 140mph with the front end beginning to feel squirrelly. Today a 2019 GT2RS which is so stable and secure at any speed it makes you feel accomplished even when you’re not. Perhaps the finest car I’ve ever owned and I’ve owned quite a few. Good luck with your tinkering. I’m looking forward to hear your accomplishments. |
Already said they sound better than some $100k speakers. Please do try and keep up. It is embarrassing when the snark lags behind. Seriously though, considering how everyone knows that just as there are components that underperform for what they cost there are also those that over perform. If wise value choices are made at every level, including wise value choices in mods and tweaks, then is it really so unexpected? I mean, if you even understand what is going on in the first place. As for reputations, people can decide for themselves. https://forum.audiogon.com/users/coys21 |
MC i always liked the idea of upgrading some of the crossover parts in my Dunlavys. I know they can sound even better. It was after reading of all the difficulties a member here in Agon faced till making them sound right again with a good number of changes, especially with absolute coil values, the idea has stalled for now. Looks like the easiest part to do is to upgrade all the wirewound resistors first and pray for some rain. Some of the capacitors later. One step at a time. Really interested to hear how your project turns out. |
MC i always liked the idea of upgrading some of the crossover parts in my Dunlavys. I know they can sound even better. It was after reading of all the difficulties a member here in Agon faced till making them sound right again with a good number of changes, especially with absolute coil values, the idea has stalled for now. Looks like the easiest part to do is to upgrade all the wirewound resistors first and pray for some rain. Some of the capacitors later. One step at a time. Resistors are probably the safest ones to start with. A resistor however you must remember to think of as a fixed volume control. Swap out a resistor of a little higher or lower value and it will have the effect of turning the volume up or down a little bit on whatever drivers it feeds. But that is not all a resistor does. Resistors also generate heat. Power resistors in crossover networks especially. Heat if you know your basic electronics increases resistance. Therefore a resistor is also going to compress dynamics. Think about it. Music is nothing but swinging dynamic voltages. Every one of these voltage peaks we want to come through loud and clear. But the increase in voltage produces heat increasing resistance. This all happens incredibly fast and local. Gradually over time the whole resistor will grow warm. But the immediate local effect is for that localized heat spike to increase resistance, turn the volume down, and there goes your dynamics. All my 15W resistors are being replaced with 2 Path Audio resistors for 20W. These resistors are physically a lot bigger. Instead of one resistor hot glued to a board there will be two vibration isolation mounted with air flow all around. This will greatly increase power handling and heat dissipation. Hard to see how this can be anything but good for dynamics. But again, remember it is a fixed volume control. It affects frequency response. So if you are sensitive and this is a priority you may notice whatever tiny amount it shifts dB and so to avoid this take care to measure and precisely match values. I never did this with the Linaeum. I simply soldered in the values the designer told me to use. Never actually measured them to see what the actual values really were. Went by whatever was on the label. Worked just fine. Based on that I am not too worried. Professional driver. Closed course. Do not try this at home. Your mileage may vary. The information here in this discussion represents hours of searching around talking to experienced modders, picking their brains, combining with my own experience and distilling it all down. I find over and over again that while it is a lot of work, when you take the time to do this you rarely put a foot wrong. We will see. |
@millercarbon, Excellent to hear about folks being curious about modding the crossovers in their speakers. I am good friends with a very prominent speaker designer whose had several very successful speaker companies and he has shared a few secrets with me about what makes a great crossover designs, some of which I can’t reveal for obvious reasons. I have replaced the mid/tweet caps in one of my speakers from Mundorf EVO to Mundorf Silver/Gold oil and the results were not subtle at all! What was already a high resolution speaker became a liquid see through panorama with greater dynamic reserves and tonal density. This crossover is all point to point wiring with the leads of the components used to make the connections, inductors arranged in space and in relation to each other to mitigate interaction and shock mounted to minimize cabinet/woofer vibration infiltration. Each driver gets its own separate network arranged in space to minimize interaction again. One misconception I’ve heard and read about is that shunt component quality in a crossover don’t matter which is not true. Looking at the voltage signal it swings both positive and negative and this involves the shunt components as well. Being curious as I am, I replaced a shunt cap in a woofer circuit from a cheap elecrolytic 68uf 10v cap to a Mundorf EVO 68uf 450V cap and while the results were not as dramatic as those with the silver/gold oil caps in the mid/tweet circuits, it was certainly noticeable which surprisingly extended up into the mid and treble frequencies. My next adventures are in high end resistors at some point. Cheers |
nmmusicman, Good to hear. We are on the same page. Already planning everything you mentioned. In fact I just got notice most of my stuff is to be delivered tomorrow. With parts in hand will begin the process of building all the little doo-dads that will hold things in place. Here is the plan (so far, I keep improving it as new information arises!): The new crossover will be all Path Audio resistors. These will be isolation mounted above the board with air space all around. The cheap electrolytic is upgraded to Jantzen Premium ELKO with a Jantzen Alumen Zcap bypass cap. All the other caps are Jantzen Alumen Zcap with Duelund JDM Silver bypass caps. All inductors are 12ga Goertz Alpha Core. They will be mounted as you said, arranged to mitigate field interactions. All components will be mounted with as much attention to vibration control as I can muster. Every component will be treated appropriately with fO.q tape, as well as some other stuff I have that I’m not supposed to talk about. The original was all hand soldered direct component to component and I hope to be able to achieve that here as well. The "board" will actually be a PPS Omega Mat bonded to a BDR Shelf. This will be threaded to attach Townshend Pods. The whole thing will then be reinstalled inside the speaker on the same brace, which will be reinforced and enlarged to accommodate the now much larger crossover. What was already a high resolution speaker became a liquid see through panorama with greater dynamic reserves and tonal density. Exactly what I am going for. Exactly what others who have done things like this talk about. So glad you posted this. So when it actually happens it will not be out of the blue. What I like is you got this result from just the caps. I am doing at least as big a cap upgrade, plus a big inductor upgrade, plus a huge resistor upgrade, plus a huge vibration control upgrade- and with better magnetic field management. Whew! If after all that it ain’t a holographic fantasmagorical experience I will be sorely disappointed! |
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Ooooops, there goes the credibility of the thread...
"Singer Vehicle Design is driven by the singular vision of Rob Dickinson- an ex car designer who then became a rock musician who now stands as one of the worlds foremost distillers of the essence of air cooled Porsche." Singer Vehicle Design – Restored. Reimagined. Reborn |
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Trying to figure out why people here hate on Chuck Miller @millercarbon so much. It is as if they lurk like vultures just waiting for Chuck to post. Me I rather enjoy his posts and appears others do to by the number of views his post get. This place is a like a High School. Keep up the good work Chuck and the free rent in their heads. Even though it may seem like a tiny house. Sad little people. |
You have no idea. Just got word both shipments- caps and resistors from Partsconnexion, inductors from Madisound - are out for delivery today! Got a PM from Ken nmmusicman with a good point, doubling up resistors in parallel the wattage adds together and this increases dynamics. One cap it was hard to find a single high quality cap in that value, so I combined two of the same model, which is the way to do it. He feels mixing types or models of caps in this situation can smear timing. Whatever the reason I am avoiding it by using a 6.8 and 8.2 uF Alumen Zcap to reach the 15uF needed for this cap. I know it is just a bunch of caps and resistors and coiled up wire. But this is like Christmas morning with a new Lionel train to set up. I had the one you put a few drops in and it even smokes. Maybe a bad metaphor. No smoke. Definitely prefer no smoke this time! |
Went looking for video of Singer founder Dickinson saying in his own words exactly what I said, that it is Singer after Norbert Singer. Because I know he said it. Came across this along the way. When you have something you love constantly being trashed in public it is exceedingly painful. This member deserves to be banned for life from all things audio. He has nothing to contribute but hate. He is the antithesis of what we are doing here. Listen to Dickinson. He is saying what I said in the beginning. We just need to satisfy performance, and we do that in a reverential and celebratory way. https://youtu.be/_3WswVaHLH4?t=198 |
USPS and UPS delivered all the parts, everything is now here except for the Townshend Pods. But I can start the build without them, even install without them if need be. Might even be better that way, let me know how much that difference that one thing makes. It is all laid out and lo and behold it actually fits! Higher quality parts are always a lot bigger and more massive. It is just crazy how much bigger this is now! The original board was 3x7". This one is 8x10! Almost four times as big! Yet there is less wasted space! But it all fits. Whew! What a relief! |
chicagoblue1977, You and I seem to have different entertainment standards. Calling people morons, especially those who worked hard to make said poster survive, is not that entertaining to me. Infuriating, maybe. I am honored not to be on that level of entertainment for you. I must be doing something good. |
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MC - just a question or two...you have a wonderful system that is geeked up to the max. Then you buy the Moab's that you have basically said is the greatest bang for buck speaker on this planet. Now you are taking it apart and adding more upgrades. Are you really going to be able to hear a difference? Where is the point of listening diminishing returns given your current system set-up? Okay, i know it's a hobby! |
Back to Porsche for a sec... one of my clients worked for Singer and left eventually to start his own garage. We built out the garage itself. He's got some decent hifi in there even. Sorry, back to Moab. |
They are related, which is why they are written up the way they are in the OP. Also Eric is a car guy, I’m sure he gets it. The current 992C4S is one of the all time great driver’s cars. Well, it is a 911 so that goes without saying to one who know cars. But few do, so I am here to remind. To the average person the car is so fantastic there is nothing more to do. Me, I drive it and after a while determine what tire pressure gives me the best tradeoff between responsiveness, grip, and ride. One psi makes a difference. Certainly not to everyone. Others can do what they want. There are those who are in denial about fuses and directionality, and there are those who are in denial about the importance of working vs cold tire pressure. Plenty around just like that. Oh well. They save a lot of time and money by not being too discerning, so it all balances out I guess. One of the things that makes the current generations so great is PASM- Porsche Active Suspension Management. PASM monitors driver inputs- steering, braking, throttle- and compares to sensors telling it what the car is actually doing. PASM then actively adjusts in real time shock damping, and roll stiffness and even engine motor mount stiffness, to deliver the best balance of ride and performance. As determined by the factory. That is key. Porsche tunes these things for the widest range of drivers and roads and road conditions. A huge amount of engineering goes into making the car safe for people who have a driver’s license but do not in fact actually know how to drive. That in case you are wondering would be you, gentle reader. (I make exception for Eric and the few others with track time. That’s about it.) So just as there are aftermarket chips to get more horsepower, there are also kits with firmware to improve handling by reprogramming PASM. The amazing thing is these not only improve track performance but also in many cases real world ride comfort. That is all I am doing. Everything I’ve said about the Moab is true. Fantastic speaker. Vast majority of speakers out there have cheaper parts in their crossovers. The parts quality Eric uses is roughly equivalent to the $16k Talon Khorus I had before. Still, they are cheap compared to what I am using. I know autocrossers who replace the entire suspension on their 911. The car looks exactly the same, but it drives so much more responsive you cannot believe. It ain’t cheap to do this. But it takes an already great car and elevates it to where the only thing better will be another car expertly breathed on. That is all I am doing. And yes it will be better. Probably so much it is hard to believe. If I don’t screw the pooch! And if I can fit it in there! It is a real tight fit. |
https://www.google.com/search?q=rolls+royce+with+chauffeur&sxsrf=ALeKk00msiPWpvkpdSVP12dwNKMb5G8... <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chauffeur Please!!!! :-) I don't care to drive anymore. Did it for a living I BACHED more miles than most folks accelerated forward. I guess you call it driving. I call it herding.. One incident DRIVING involving another piece of iron. Chrysler LeBaron 22 years ago. Dented a rim on a 15 ton service truck (drove home on it) and broke the ornament on his hood. Drove me into a curb.. I chose the curb vs his FULL front end... He was sited for distracted driving, his third wreck at the SAME intersection... The cop was just SMOKING. The guy continued to talk on his cell phone until he was told to hang it up or "Go To Jail", he almost got a "Reckless Driving". HE should have had his license pulled right on the spot.. Admitted to being in THREE wrecks at the same intersection... The paint wasn't dry from the last wreck.. Still wasn't buffed...YUP.. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How's that crossover coming along MC? You're using an IC or going point to point on your new larger boards? I couldn't sort out if it is Point to Point or an IC (you know with traces) You're mounting them inside? INSIDE? one more time INSIDE!! :-) As I tipped a pair of speakers over (410 pounders) I was thinking, my new rear pole for the modified bipole could house the internal XO inside that box. Then I thought about it a little more and said. A WHOLE NEW BOX. because I can't get the NEO 8 Driver fields far enough away from the XOs. BIG and or STRONG magnets have a 6-10" field.. According to my little experiment (mag compass) I know there is an issue running coils parallel. I also found HEAVY mag fields can change the XO parameters if they are too close. There are TWO serious drivers pretty close to the internal XO (existing bass section that is still intact).. and at right angles to one another.. I'm going External... On the fly changes and ease of location. No other way around it for me.. Regards |
@willgolf MC - just a question or two...you have a wonderful system that is geeked up to the max. Then you buy the Moab’s that you have basically said is the greatest bang for buck speaker on this planet. Now you are taking it apart and adding more upgrades. Are you really going to be able to hear a difference? Where is the point of listening diminishing returns given your current system set-up? Okay, i know it’s a hobby!Is he really going to hear a difference? They are a value added speaker, and in their price bracket they do represent large value. The difference will not be subtle, assuming the build has no flaws (this isn’t his first BBQ, perhaps not the best saying, as he does a LOT of BBQ apparently), the integrity of the original signal from his amplifier should have significantly less distortion introduced by these top tier components. Which are the best quality (or closely rivaling) that I am aware of. There are only a couple of things that I have concerns for, DCR might change slightly, and MC measured the delivered crossover, not from the plan Eric designed. I cannot see how it will sound less resolving and many reasons to believe it will be more resolving. Using a car as an analogy, control, braking and horsepower (when it’s needed) are all upgraded simultaneously. |
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oldhvymec - yeah, external is the best if you can get away with it. Always compromises though, like using a stereo amplifier the speaker wire runs need to be longer than two mono blocks. The wire runs will be longer of course. Are you going to shield yours coming out of your x-over? The driver's magnetic field when the driver is under load, does that change? I ask because generally the magnet is attached at the rear of the basket, I had always assumed it was a constant magnetic field, and the motor has an electromagnet that changes polarity to drive the cone? I have suggested MC use variable resistors to test it, before finalising the values in each circuit. I do realise that one could spend a lot of time doing that. |
A lot of people wondering why the crossover will be INSIDE. 😉 Well mostly it will be inside because I am a low hanging fruit kind of guy. Try not to make things harder than they need to be. Yes, for sure there are advantages to an outboard crossover, and it could even sound better if properly implemented. Right now the signal from the amp goes through 9 feet of the finest speaker cable I ever heard, Townshend F1. From the terminals there's only one or two feet of Eric's "military spec" internal wire. If I go external then I need first to find a couple feet of F1 quality wire to go from the crossover to the terminals. Only now instead of just +/- terminals I need ones for all the driver connections. So external crossover means removing the existing terminal and replacing it with something else. Or running the wires through that opening. Something like that. Either way it means finding F1 quality wire, or otherwise losing in wire what was gained going outboard. I think a lot of the outboard motivation comes from vibration control, and the convenience of tinkering and tweaking. Well, I am handling vibration control by mounting the whole thing on a BDR Shelf on Townshend Pods. And I am tweaking and tinkering to the nine's already. Also I know speakers are all different but with these when the lower woofer is removed the crossover sits right behind it, just not all that hard to work on it if really necessary. Internal wiring is on the table for some future project. When I look at all those wires, and how they are routed, and what they are, it is clear that however good this thing sounds with the new crossover it can be a whole lot better still with some premium wire. But reality check: 17 drivers. 34 solder connections. God knows what sort of wiring configuration to figure out. Per speaker. Let's get this sorted out. Then we will see. |
Cryo One is local, I know the guy, he did all my wire. Everything from the panel to the speakers at one point was all cryo. But now almost everything is anyway, I am not going to bother with driving back and forth adding 2 weeks to something I know can be improved more and better for much less time and trouble thanks to Krissy and her TDF. As much time as it took to figure out what parts and get them here, getting it all laid properly and to fit is proving to be about as hard as anything. |
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