The Intellectual People Podcast - Galen Gareis (Former Belden Wire Designer)

jaytor, you have a lot more fun coming your way; the effect of building out a set of cables is powerful, regardless of the brand. I enjoyed the changes to the system when I added cables from Iconoclast, which I point out in the review. 

Would you like a challenge? It might be challenging to read my review of the Legacy Audio i.V4 Ultra Amplifier. Perhaps now that you are beginning to gain insight on what I wrote in regard to the cables, you might consider if I am right about the amp. I make several predictions in regard to the industry, but the comparison and discussion of the amp's use are accurate.   :) 

@wickymelb - Unfortunately, very few cable companies publish the details behind their designs like Iconoclast does. It would certainly make it easier to make an informed purchase decision. 

Since I was looking for a long set of interconnects, I didn't have the luxury of trying lots of options. I chose the Iconoclast because their explanation of their design choices made a lot of sense to me, and I was looking for cables that would get out of the way, not add their own colorations. 

Of course, no cable is perfect, but the Iconoclast cables made an appreciable improvement to the sound of my system (at least from my perspective). 

The Iconoclast cables are not inexpensive, at least for the model I chose which was their highest priced balanced interconnect. But they are a lot less expensive than many premium cables in longer lengths. And they were willing to make a custom length for me and still offer a refund if I wasn't satisfied. Well, I was more than satisfied and hope to swap out my other interconnects and speaker cables with Iconoclast cables down the road.

By the way I am looking to buy some interconnects, and am trying to decide whether  SS Palladiums, Audio Envy or Iconoclastic is the best way to go, If anyone has any direct experiences between all three I would love to hear from you. 

Hi everyone, greetings from Melbourne Australia where we are all confined to our homes. 

Was a long time lurker on this thread and recently read Douglas Schroeders excellent review of the iconoclast cables. 

One thing I struggled to get a clear picture of was the difference between Galen's cable goals and other manufacturers such as Tara Labs, Stage III High Fidelity and also Audio Envy and the Silversmith Audio Fidelity line which are  generating

The science of cabling is laid out and sure the electromagnetics are spotlighted well but how doed Belden/Iconoclast do this better than other companies who are also surely working with  LCR as properties to manipulate. Isn't an air tune containing a conductor the basic idea behind a coaxial cable which has been made since 1870? monoblocks,Tara Labs very explicitly states their capacitance  as a design goal. And isn't Teflon a fairly generic material in cable design> 

Has anyone done any explicit comparison's with these other brands and can account for specific  material and engineering differences that make iconoclast class leading in terms of sound. ? 

I mentioned this in the thread about high-end XLR cables, but thought I would post here in case others are interested in the Iconoclast cables. 

After listening to the podcast mentioned in the OP, I spent some time researching these. I've been reluctant to spend big bucks on a set of interconnects since most of the well-regarded cables get very expensive in the 25ft length I needed, and the cable co lending library doesn't have lengths like this available. I wasn't willing to spend thousands of dollars on a cable that I couldn't return and particularly where the manufacturer provides no information about how the cable is constructed or basic LCR measurements. 

I have been an audiophile for 45 years and while I lean considerably more toward the subjective side of the subjective/objective equation, I also have an EE background and like to understand why a component or cable works like it does. So I really appreciated how forthcoming Iconoclast is being describing their cables design and construction and why they made the decisions they did. 

I decided to give these a try and ordered a 25ft set of 4x4 OCC cables. These cables aren't cheap (at > $4K) but at least Iconoclast/BJC offers a liberal 30 day return policy with no restocking fees. Prior to purchasing these, I had tried Belden 1800F from Blue Jeans Cable, and three DIY cables made from DH Labs Pro Studio, Parts Connexion "The Natural", and Neotech NEI-3001 Mk III. Of these, the DH Labs was my favorite, but each of these cables sounded different and each had things I didn't like. 

I've now had the Iconoclast cables playing in my system for about 150 hours, but it didn't take me very long to decide they weren't going back. They are more dynamic with sharper attacks, have a more natural decay, and a noticeable increase in clarity. The slight harshness I was hearing from some of my other cables is gone, and I'm enjoying listing to some of my poorer quality recordings that I couldn't handle with my previous cables. 

I don't think any of the cables I built myself are available as factory terminated cables, so I don't know exactly what they would cost, but I'd doubt they'd be more than 30% of the cost of the Iconoclast, so you would expect some improvement. But I wasn't expecting as much as I got and was prepared to send these back and spend the money on other component upgrades. Now I'm thinking of investing in a second set of interconnects between my DAC and Pre, and also considering the Iconoclast speaker cables.

@rnrmf1971 - Perfect. Thanks for the additional info. These sound like they'd be a good choice for me. 

@jaytor  -  I use them between a Levinson 52 pre and Bricasti M28 amps, so it's a fully balanced system.

These replaced Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 7 XLR's. I used to use WW Platinum 7 throughout my system when I needed to warm it up when I had speakers that didn't have enough bass/warmth for my taste.

In a reasonably balanced sounding system, I think the Iconoclast OCC is technically superior - and for me, audibly.

@rnrmf1971 - thanks. I assume these are connected to your amp. Could you share what amp you're using and what you're driving it with? I've got a number of amps, but currently using a pair of Pass XA60.8s driven by a DIY preamp. 

@jaytor I have a 26 foot pair of those and I think they have the same sound quality as the 1 and 1.5 meter lengths I own and love.

The arguments you make full time every day, over and over, has nothing to do with listening. It’s just an argument for the sake of argument. Nothing to do with audio, listening, or music

You don't listen, you watch and then draw conclusions about what you see and assign those conclusions as exclusively the domain of your hearing. At least be honest with yourself.

The argument dudes like dletch make over and over has nothing to do with listening. It’s just an argument for the sake of argument. Nothing to do with audio, listening, or music

dletch2,
Your automobile analogy in regard to "reduced emissions due to platinum/palladium alloys in the catalytic converter" is exactly how I would expect you to pick the audio equipment that is right for you.

Others may prefer the listening technique though  

Thinking, and using the huge available knowledge set available to us, as well as our own expertise is not cynicism, it is called critical thought. Most technically knowledgeable people in an area more skeptical of claims, and they are also more immune to confirmation bias. 


When I am looking to invest in mining stocks, I don't ask my dentist nor the guy who drives a truck at the mine. I talk to my friend who is a mining executive and another friend who is a geologist. Using a piece of equipment does not give you expertise. It is like asking someone who drives a car, whether a manufacturers claims of reduced emissions due to platinum/palladium alloys in the catalytic converter is true. Use of something does not confer expertise.

Which manufacturer, I wonder, would not suggest using all of their components (or at least all they produce) in a single system?

I'm thinking of giving the Iconoclast cables a try between my preamp and monoblocks. I need approximately 25ft XLRs, so these won't be inexpensive (at least using 4x4 with UP-OCC) at $4250. I'm currently using Neotech NEI-3001 Mk III. At this price, I'd expect a fairly noticeable improvement. 

Anyone tried these cables (particularly a longer run) and decided against them?

Thank you, thyname and boxer12.

Yes, an arbitrary threshold and methodology (testing/comparing only 1 cable/pair) that favors not spending money is nearly assured to yield an outcome that is more likely to be 1. more difficult to discern, and , 2. more likely to be deemed not significant enough.

And skeptics like to talk about me having bias! The level of cynicism of some of these people is off the chart!

What other component is so despised, so disdained that audiophiles completely ignore the recommendations of the manufacturer for use, in fact, eagerly (and often arrogantly) do the opposite? The answers usually given are skepticism/distrust, "thriftiness", and pure ego that they think they can make or assemble a better set. It would kill some of these people to think that they would have to spend money on an entire set, when they can apply their incredibly shrewd power of guessing to assemble a premier collection of cheap, used cables!

The ignorance and arrogance expressed in the audiophile community is one of the reasons I have the adage; the greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.

dletch2:
"If a single cable, replaced anywhere in the signal chain provides no audible difference when using actual critical listening testing, with attempts to remove bias, then replacing the whole loom is not going to either."

Where is the "science" in that statement dletch2? Is this a new type of science where there is no need to test your conclusion? 

thyname:
Your assessment of Doug is spot on. He is (& has been) active in advancing high end audio & an asset to this site.  

If you had to go “special” might as well go all in special. What have you got?

15, do I hear 15? Going once, going twice, sold!

I always thought Douglas is a honest, down to earth guy. Not just his reviews, but personal interaction (here and other places) as well.
As for your “armchair dilettante” comment on the other guy, I fully agree. It’s the age of the Internets. I have read so many replies from these #measurementmorons types, I can practically write what they say automatically without even thinking. It’s just the same stuff they say over and over and over. It’s like in autopilot. I can honestly predict with 100% accuracy their replies to me, before I say something. It’s hilarious

Well when doug and dltech start sparring I dont know how much more fun this could be. An armchair dilettante or a self-styled audio journalist who writes for anyone who might possibly listen. The hubris on both sides is worth 10 times the price of admission. Both of you guys need to chill and stop taking yourselves so seriously. Blind listening........system building......blah blah blah pfffft!

It’s so funny: #measurementmorons with after market cables always say one of the following excusing themselves for having them:

1) They got them for free or very cheap

2) They look good. Audio jewelry 

Heck! One of them said he got a $16,000 DAC because it looks good instead of a $50 China DAC that measures the same therefore sounds the same, just because it looks good. A little subjective?

Maybe 10 years was a low estimate.

I thought you were the authority here, established in these two long weeks since you “joined”. You can figure out what I meant with my math.

Anyways. You can carry on with winning the Internet 😉

So what you are saying is in another 10 years or so, I can expect a statement with some maturity not a childish unrelated comment? Thank you for the warning.

So let me do the math: I am in high school, so less than 18 years old. I joined Audiogon in 2005, when I was less than 2 years old? 
Besides, what problem do you have with what I wrote above? Triggered?

When do you graduate? .... I mean from high school?

It’s so funny: #measurementmorons with after market cables always say one of the following excusing themselves for having them:

1) They got them for free or very cheap

2) They look good. Audio jewelry

Heck! One of them said he got a $16,000 DAC because it looks good instead of a $50 China DAC that measures the same therefore sounds the same, just because it looks good. A little subjective?

😂😂😂

dletch2, thank you for your additional comments. You have homemade "custom" cables and appear to not understand how to assess cables in systems.

Well isn't that a convenient and absolutely meaningless conclusion there Doug. I don't use your flawed methodology, therefore I must be wrong. Sorry Doug, when I want to detect small changes in performance, I blind test.  Are you familiar with the concept? I don't think so since you never do it, and think this mixed cable concept of yours somehow gives you super hearing and removes bias. Sorry Doug, the world does not conform to how you want it to work.

Of course, you didn’t share what cables you have compared in sets, as I requested.

Request all you want. It is a meaningless request, therefore requires no answer.  If a single cable, replaced anywhere in the signal chain provides no audible difference when using actual critical listening testing, with attempts to remove bias, then replacing the whole loom is not going to either.  Let's face it, this whole "loom" concept is nothing but manufacturers trying to extract more money from customers. I don't blame them, every company tries to do that. However, anyone who has a shred of understanding of electronics or the possible interactions a cable could have, understands it MUST be highly dependent on the two components being connected, with the possible exception of speakers in most cases, hence the concept of a full loom is again, just marketing. Using critical listening methods would help you with this.  The other advantage of a supplier insisting full loom, to reviewers, is it forces a change (and hence contact swiping / cleaning) of every connection. 

You provided two instances of comparison of cables in mixed sets, as though that is evidence to dismiss the efficacy of different builds. Congratulations! You follow the same ignorant errors of other highly intelligent people who use poor methodology in reaching erroneous conclusions!

Doug, you have explained your methodology. It is flawed and so highly susceptible to mood and bias, that it is effectively worthless. That you think you are magically infallible is the start and finish of your methodology.  In terms of actually reading what I said, I provided two instances where an actual audible change was noted. There have been high 10's of high end cable comparisons with no evident changes. I have also made changes along the way that reduced noise, and it is pretty easy to make a bad speaker cable that produces a somewhat evident change in performance, at least with somewhat quick changes.


Until you accept you are biased, have moods, and are fallible, you will continue on the flawed path. 

dletch2, thank you for your additional comments. You have homemade "custom" cables and appear to not understand how to assess cables in systems. Of course, you didn’t share what cables you have compared in sets, as I requested. You provided two instances of comparison of cables in mixed sets, as though that is evidence to dismiss the efficacy of different builds. Congratulations! You follow the same ignorant errors of other highly intelligent people who use poor methodology in reaching erroneous conclusions!

You blathered on and on, never sharing the info I requested - I presume because you have not compared cables in sets. Consequently, you are clueless on this topic, an opinionated and ignorant person. You could become an asset to this site and the community, but not until you humble yourself. :(

BTW, when you boast of your homemade cables, and dismiss one of the world's foremost authorities on cables' electrical properties and sound characteristics, then I know it's a waste of time to discuss with you.  

As regards ABX, I did so and wrote about it in the ABX Comparator review at Dagogo.com 
I could care less about your opinion on ABX. 

I’m finished with this discussion.

Were you more informed, you would know that those who would listen to Galen would most likely not be very impressed by Ted's work.

Oh give me a break. Writing for a 2nd rate online magazine makes you informed?  Those who understand cables, I mean really understand them, will think about the same, ultimately, about Galen and Ted (and any number of other companies). Whether the bamboozlement comes in the form of somewhat accurate but meaningless engineering speak, or pure fluff, the end result is the same, and ultimately is the reason why no, and I mean NO cable company every does blind public tests. For all the claims of obvious differences, they know that is not the case. If they were confident in the results of blind tests, they would do them.  Heck, Shunyata does not even show noise results for audio on their website, they show medical equipment and they don't even portray exactly the same signals side by side.


Your attempt at a call to authority is laughable. You can't adequately address the content in my posts, so you try to go after me personally.  You may want to think on that. The people with half a brain see through that.  Do you think this little part of the audio world is all that exists and that people don't have fairly active audio groups in the cities they live in where people regularly experience not only their equipment, but those of others?  For someone who claims familiarity with the industry, you seems a little out of touch with what happens on the street. The total high end audio market is barely the size of just Sonos, and while it is growing due to expansion into emerging markets, its penetration drops every year, which has made the industry self serving as it tries to maintain local revenue and struggles with irrelevance, while not seeing it orchestrates its own irrelevance. Younger generations, including ones with now significant income, are not embracing high end audio, and not embracing turntables for anything but kitsch.  One only needs to recognize the ever increasing average age of audiophiles, especially here to see that is the case. The younger generations are better educated, more informed, and believe it or not, more skeptical. "Trust me", does not fly well with them.


If you must now, most cables in my system are custom made. I like things neat and tidy, not the rats nest in so many so-called system pictures. Everything (now), is just the right length. No more, no less.  Interconnects are made with Mogami 2534, but the runs are all short so the capacitance does not matter. Subs are 2549. Limited frequency range so less EMI concern. I use Furutech XLR connectors, mainly because I got 20 of them at next to nothing. I have no illusions they sound better than Neutrik, but I they do look a lot better. AECO for my RCA. Jewellery. I like the way they look and easy to work with. On the non DSP speakers, custom 8 awg for bass, Kimber 8PR for mid/highs. I use Audionote spades, they crimp perfectly.  I also have some Goertz cables. Normally I am listening to speakers with a direct digital feed, so no need. I didn't plan to make my own phono cable but did that too. It was that or open up the phono stage and modify the values for proper cartridge loading. I just started with a longer wire and kept shortening it till the capacitive loading was correct then tweaked the resistor in the connector. Dirty secret in audio, most people's cartridges are poorly matched to their phono stages. No where near optimum.   I used to use shielded instrument AC cords, but looked a bit crappy. Ran into ESP at AES pre-covid. Nice guy, sure a bit distorted view of how electricity works, but kept the spin to a minimum.  Ended up buying 5 cables, custom to my desired length, with several of them with right angles IEC. No difference in sound, but really cleaned things up and looks great. The DSP speakers have custom made AC cables.   ..... oh, and ya, I have had many a friend drop by with expensive cables, and only twice could anyone tell a difference. With one IC, there was a very slight hum, probably faulty construction (for $1,200!), and with one set of speaker cables, by a "well-known" company, you could hear a warming when switched, but really not a warming, but a loss of high frequencies. Not at all surprising when you looked at it. 

dletch2, When an engineer/designer has put out boatloads of technical information, I do not need to do a highly technical review. I only need point to it. 

I do not think you understand the audiophile community well, at least beyond a cursory comparison. You strike me as one of the objectivist types, and lump any cable enthusiasts together without much sophistication. Were you more informed, you would know that those who would listen to Galen would most likely not be very impressed by Ted's work. 

Why don't you share what cables you have compared in sets? Please list your system from first power cord through to speakers, and preferably present images for us. Please, go ahead and start a Virtual System here, complete with all details. Thank you. 

Very funny! And what exactly did YOU bring to this discussion? This?


dletch2161 posts04-18-2021 10:07pmThis thread strikes me as the blind leading the blind. The article is meant to be impressive, but technically is super weak, but if it suits what you want to believe, it must be true. Same people who going gaga for Galen, pun intended, also go gaga for Ted, who comparatively, probably barely knows what a cable is. Can't have it both ways boys and girls.

When someone comes onto a thread and does nothing but casually toss out irrelevant personal slights while bringing nothing to the conversation, you gotta wonder what they are compensating for? Do people over 18 still use hashtags?

thyname1,207 posts04-22-2021 7:35pmDudes like Dltech are perfect examples of what I keep saying all along in this thread: #measurementmorons will never buy any cables regardless of what measurements and technical details you provide for them. It’s a lost cause. A lose / lose proposition.

Dudes like Dltech are perfect examples of what I keep saying all along in this thread: #measurementmorons will never buy any cables regardless of what measurements and technical details you provide for them. It’s a lost cause. A lose / lose proposition.

Not so fast, grasshopper....just kidding...maybe the cables I am trying will sound both good AND measure well :) - - -  still evaluating...based on the sound btw...not measurements...

This thread strikes me as the blind leading the blind. The article is meant to be impressive, but technically is super weak, but if it suits what you want to believe, it must be true.  Same people who going gaga for Galen, pun intended, also go gaga for Ted, who comparatively, probably barely knows what a cable is.  Can't have it both ways boys and girls.

English is not my native language and one in which I still struggle regularly and consistently so please kindly forgive this question but isn't referring to yourself or your efforts as "intellectual" actually an suggestion, indication, and reflection that you are probably not intellectual at all? 

I emailed / called Bob Howard from the website and discussed my needs with him and also called a couple of referrals of other users to get their impressions. 

Awesome! Finally someone in the real world actually getting these cable. I look forward to your impressions.

For some reason (not strange to me), people I know who value the benefits of cables never tried these. And the measurements crowd, typically 99% correlation with cable deniers, well... they never buy expensive cables no matter what... the measurements are.
Did you order the Iconoclast cables direct from the website?

Ok, I bit...I am getting a full iconoclast loom sent to me for audition - will let everyone know my thoughts - good, bad or indifferent...supposed to arrive next week...will give it appropriate time to settle (maybe even break in? :)  - - sorry Doug, couldn't resist...btw, I tried, and own the amp that Doug really likes and I guess Doug has a review that is forthcoming...well before he reviewed it...I was surprised at how good it was...I thought I would NEVER own class D...and I am a tube guy...I am still going through counseling as a result...lol. Be patient, I will give these a cables a serious go - 

I read the very positive review but I haven’t heard much else. I was wondering if others could corroborate.

Yes. At least one, @douglas_schroeder . He wrote a review about them. See above

Have any Audiogon regulars heard them?

Interestingly, referring to time.... The liquid metal works best (compared to all other potentials in the 'cable' world) in the time domain.

re reviewers, one reads their works and then becomes familiar with how that person does things, and from that, one can gain useful information for one's own self search in the audio world. It's a simple equation.

Guys, I think maybe the point here is missed...Galen, knew cables sounded different and went about trying to "measure" why, but more importantly challenge himself to design a cable that both measured well and sounded great.  To his credit he states that the better copper wire (Ultra Pure OFC) sounds better but can't be measured...even though the basic measurements are the same - got it? An engineer admitting to audiophiles what we have been saying - "I don't care about measurement, it sounds better!" Many engineers would never admit this- ...Lot's of variables go into design (not just resistance, capacitance and inductance) and the variables are interdependent...i.e. change one and the others change. So which ones are most important? If you read his papers and watch the video I think he would suggest TIME. Then it seems he challenged himself to design a cable by measurement and then see if the design parameters resulted in a good sounding cable by listening...so, he used measurements and his ears. And sent his cables to a lot of audiophiles for listening tests...I really can't fault him for his approach. Why don't you just audition them like every other cable you are interested in? See if you like them? 

I wouldn't fault Doug for listening and posting his listening results. He liked them - compared to other very well respected expensive cables. Just because he listed the manufacturers design goals - which btw, MANY cable reviews I read state some, if not all design goals and approaches, doesn't diminish what he heard when he tested the cables on multiple systems... I appreciate when reviewers write their opinions as it broadens my choices and thinking when frankly, I can't begin to test as many things as dozens of various reviewers can. 

Some very interesting comments for sure!  

No Doug your article is an attempt to draw attention to both your writing and the cables. An attempt to sell both. I am done and I will try to refrain from commenting in the future because you obviously dont see the problem and never will.