The Intellectual People Podcast - Galen Gareis (Former Belden Wire Designer)
Former Belden Wire Designer Galen Gareis explains how cables need to meet certain standards and the design parameters around them. He also speaks about the actual science and the subjective side within hifi audio.
Yes, an arbitrary threshold and methodology (testing/comparing only 1 cable/pair) that favors not spending money is nearly assured to yield an outcome that is more likely to be 1. more difficult to discern, and , 2. more likely to be deemed not significant enough.
And skeptics like to talk about me having bias! The level of cynicism of some of these people is off the chart!
What other component is so despised, so disdained that audiophiles completely ignore the recommendations of the manufacturer for use, in fact, eagerly (and often arrogantly) do the opposite? The answers usually given are skepticism/distrust, "thriftiness", and pure ego that they think they can make or assemble a better set. It would kill some of these people to think that they would have to spend money on an entire set, when they can apply their incredibly shrewd power of guessing to assemble a premier collection of cheap, used cables!
The ignorance and arrogance expressed in the audiophile community is one of the reasons I have the adage; the greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
I'm thinking of giving the Iconoclast cables a try between my preamp and monoblocks. I need approximately 25ft XLRs, so these won't be inexpensive (at least using 4x4 with UP-OCC) at $4250. I'm currently using Neotech NEI-3001 Mk III. At this price, I'd expect a fairly noticeable improvement.
Anyone tried these cables (particularly a longer run) and decided against them?
Thinking, and using the huge available knowledge set available to us, as well as our own expertise is not cynicism, it is called critical thought. Most technically knowledgeable people in an area more skeptical of claims, and they are also more immune to confirmation bias.
When I am looking to invest in mining stocks, I don't ask my dentist nor the guy who drives a truck at the mine. I talk to my friend who is a mining executive and another friend who is a geologist. Using a piece of equipment does not give you expertise. It is like asking someone who drives a car, whether a manufacturers claims of reduced emissions due to platinum/palladium alloys in the catalytic converter is true. Use of something does not confer expertise.
dletch2, Your automobile analogy in regard to "reduced emissions due to platinum/palladium alloys in the catalytic converter" is exactly how I would expect you to pick the audio equipment that is right for you.
The argument dudes like dletch make over and over has nothing to do with listening. It’s just an argument for the sake of argument. Nothing to do with audio, listening, or music
You don't listen, you watch and then draw conclusions about what you see and assign those conclusions as exclusively the domain of your hearing. At least be honest with yourself.
The arguments you make full time every day, over and over, has nothing to do with listening. It’s just an argument for the sake of argument. Nothing to do with audio, listening, or music
@rnrmf1971 - thanks. I assume these are connected to your amp. Could you share what amp you're using and what you're driving it with? I've got a number of amps, but currently using a pair of Pass XA60.8s driven by a DIY preamp.
@jaytor - I use them between a Levinson 52 pre and Bricasti M28 amps, so it's a fully balanced system.
These replaced Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 7 XLR's. I used to use WW Platinum 7 throughout my system when I needed to warm it up when I had speakers that didn't have enough bass/warmth for my taste.
In a reasonably balanced sounding system, I think the Iconoclast OCC is technically superior - and for me, audibly.
I mentioned this in the thread about high-end XLR cables, but thought I would post here in case others are interested in the Iconoclast cables.
After listening to the podcast mentioned in the OP, I spent some time researching these. I've been reluctant to spend big bucks on a set of interconnects since most of the well-regarded cables get very expensive in the 25ft length I needed, and the cable co lending library doesn't have lengths like this available. I wasn't willing to spend thousands of dollars on a cable that I couldn't return and particularly where the manufacturer provides no information about how the cable is constructed or basic LCR measurements.
I have been an audiophile for 45 years and while I lean considerably more toward the subjective side of the subjective/objective equation, I also have an EE background and like to understand why a component or cable works like it does. So I really appreciated how forthcoming Iconoclast is being describing their cables design and construction and why they made the decisions they did.
I decided to give these a try and ordered a 25ft set of 4x4 OCC cables. These cables aren't cheap (at > $4K) but at least Iconoclast/BJC offers a liberal 30 day return policy with no restocking fees. Prior to purchasing these, I had tried Belden 1800F from Blue Jeans Cable, and three DIY cables made from DH Labs Pro Studio, Parts Connexion "The Natural", and Neotech NEI-3001 Mk III. Of these, the DH Labs was my favorite, but each of these cables sounded different and each had things I didn't like.
I've now had the Iconoclast cables playing in my system for about 150 hours, but it didn't take me very long to decide they weren't going back. They are more dynamic with sharper attacks, have a more natural decay, and a noticeable increase in clarity. The slight harshness I was hearing from some of my other cables is gone, and I'm enjoying listing to some of my poorer quality recordings that I couldn't handle with my previous cables.
I don't think any of the cables I built myself are available as factory terminated cables, so I don't know exactly what they would cost, but I'd doubt they'd be more than 30% of the cost of the Iconoclast, so you would expect some improvement. But I wasn't expecting as much as I got and was prepared to send these back and spend the money on other component upgrades. Now I'm thinking of investing in a second set of interconnects between my DAC and Pre, and also considering the Iconoclast speaker cables.
Hi everyone, greetings from Melbourne Australia where we are all confined to our homes.
Was a long time lurker on this thread and recently read Douglas Schroeders excellent review of the iconoclast cables.
One thing I struggled to get a clear picture of was the difference between Galen's cable goals and other manufacturers such as Tara Labs, Stage III High Fidelity and also Audio Envy and the Silversmith Audio Fidelity line which are generating
The science of cabling is laid out and sure the electromagnetics are spotlighted well but how doed Belden/Iconoclast do this better than other companies who are also surely working with LCR as properties to manipulate. Isn't an air tune containing a conductor the basic idea behind a coaxial cable which has been made since 1870? monoblocks,Tara Labs very explicitly states their capacitance as a design goal. And isn't Teflon a fairly generic material in cable design>
Has anyone done any explicit comparison's with these other brands and can account for specific material and engineering differences that make iconoclast class leading in terms of sound. ?
By the way I am looking to buy some interconnects, and am trying to decide whether SS Palladiums, Audio Envy or Iconoclastic is the best way to go, If anyone has any direct experiences between all three I would love to hear from you.
@wickymelb - Unfortunately, very few cable companies publish the details behind their designs like Iconoclast does. It would certainly make it easier to make an informed purchase decision.
Since I was looking for a long set of interconnects, I didn't have the luxury of trying lots of options. I chose the Iconoclast because their explanation of their design choices made a lot of sense to me, and I was looking for cables that would get out of the way, not add their own colorations.
Of course, no cable is perfect, but the Iconoclast cables made an appreciable improvement to the sound of my system (at least from my perspective).
The Iconoclast cables are not inexpensive, at least for the model I chose which was their highest priced balanced interconnect. But they are a lot less expensive than many premium cables in longer lengths. And they were willing to make a custom length for me and still offer a refund if I wasn't satisfied. Well, I was more than satisfied and hope to swap out my other interconnects and speaker cables with Iconoclast cables down the road.
jaytor, you have a lot more fun coming your way; the effect of building out a set of cables is powerful, regardless of the brand. I enjoyed the changes to the system when I added cables from Iconoclast, which I point out in the review.
Would you like a challenge? It might be challenging to read my review of the Legacy Audio i.V4 Ultra Amplifier. Perhaps now that you are beginning to gain insight on what I wrote in regard to the cables, you might consider if I am right about the amp. I make several predictions in regard to the industry, but the comparison and discussion of the amp's use are accurate. :)
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