The Insane World of High End Audio! Is it All a Scam?

I like cheapaudioman and do not agree with everything he says, nor anybody else for that matter.

I just read in another thread a poster saying he know how to assemble a system without the need of reviewers opinion.

I had no problem with that but i suppose his method is not sniffing the gear but hearing a piece buying it and connecting it. Job done.

 

I am sorry but i called this consumers ignorance even if you had verified all measures done by an ASR "engineer" or Amir himself...Or reviewers ignorance...A piece of gear exist only playing in a specific system, in a specific room for specific ears/brain... Design techs numbers are there to validate good design process nothing else...

 

An audio system exist mechanically, electrically and acoustically in a room and psycho-acoustically for specific ears...Not in a showroom, in a showroom there is only piece of gear connected.

Why did Dr. Choueiri measures in a complex way the ears/head of his customers ?

he is an acoustician...

My AKG K340 why are they so good when properly optimized ?

They were designed by an acoustician physicist not a headphone tweaker, Dr. Gorike...

 

 

 

I forgot to say that i takes me many years to learn how to install a system to my convenience, among these 12 years of explorations and experiments, buying, toying reading reviewers and articles, but at the end i missed the target.

 

I succeeded only after 2 years during retirement reading about acoustics, doing experiments 7 day /7 all day... It was my past hobby : learning acoustics at home...

It is why i can measure my past ignorance when most cannot...

It is why i dont consider  that audio knowledge begin and end when  someone  tried about 400 amplifiers etc...

I doubt Dr. Choueiri or Dr Gorike had accumulated their knowledge by buying gear pieces... Thats my point...

 

 

Well said i agree with your common sense yes...

But my point in this thread as a motive, is that all reviewers, of high end gear or low cost one, minimize or put acoustics knowledge under the rug...

They must sell first, then they must inform about a piece of gear.....They are not there to spoke about acoustics...

"All" reviewers do this? Well, maybe.

I suppose you could be saying a couple of things about gear reviewers:

1. They *intentionally obscure* the larger factor of acoustics so they can more effectively sell or promote equipment. 

2. At least some gear reviewers are intentionally obscuring the larger factor but even if it is not intentional, it is the byproduct of this type of review.

I am not sure which one you believe.

I suppose my take on it is this:

3. Gear reviewers review gear. People who watch these videos may or may not be informed about the role of gear in acoustics, but their role is narrow and the responsibility for a wider perspective is on the viewer. This is not unlike many other things we read or watch.

@mahgister

Room acoustics.

Cutting to the chase after just reading your original post.

The first reply was crass and terribly personal towards you. I have not bothered to read further….the snobbery was unbelievable! 🛁 Rick and his logo impresses me not!

I do not normally get hot under the collar but l felt just cause to post this right back.

Yes you agree that you may not have the big bucks, but you extract and gain the maximum amount of enjoyment from the equipment you have by considering your listening space.

My conclusion to your post and the opinionated rubbish thrown your way is to say:-

Room acoustics do determine the limiting factors of your equipments potential. A really expensive piece of kit will never sound great in a bathroom no matter how good it is. I know that this is an extreme comparison (and rude comments should remain in the bathroom) but some peoples listening rooms with minimalist designs can be the most limiting factor…..arguably more than anything else.

I thought i was clear:

I said we scam ourselves first and last... (consumers as reviewers)

By ignorance of acoustics science...

I did not accused as many here the personal character of reviewers into a complotist plot to scam people...

Acoustics ignorance once i had studied it is everywhere not as a complotist perspective from anyone , but by lack of concrete applied knowledge of acoustics concepts...

 

 

Reviewers are like the consumers, they ignore acoustics, it is not deliberate, it is a consequence of the universal focus on the gear design by subjectivist as objectivists...

I knew it ONLY by my experience in my room and studying serious audio designer and top scientists as Dr. Gorike , Edgar Choueiri, Floyd Toole... Etc

 

 

To be more clear : Most reviewers i read or listened to are sincere and honest ... I am perhaps naive but it is my impression...

"All" reviewers do this? Well, maybe.

I suppose you could be saying a couple of things about gear reviewers:

1. They *intentionally obscure* the larger factor of acoustics so they can more effectively sell or promote equipment.

2. At least some gear reviewers are intentionally obscuring the larger factor but even if it is not intentional, it is the byproduct of this type of review.

I am not sure which one you believe.

 

Then i concur with your last paragraph opinion :

 

3. Gear reviewers review gear. People who watch these videos may or may not be informed about the role of gear in acoustics, but their role is narrow and the responsibility for a wider perspective is on the viewer. This is not unlike many other things we read or watch.

 

Thanks for your kind words and understanding...

 

@mahgister

Room acoustics.

Cutting to the chase after just reading your original post.

The first reply was crass and terribly personal towards you. I have not bothered to read further….the snobbery was unbelievable! 🛁 Rick and his logo impresses me not!

I do not normally get hot under the collar but l felt just cause to post this right back.

Yes you agree that you may not have the big bucks, but you extract and gain the maximum amount of enjoyment from the equipment you have by considering your listening space.

My conclusion to your post and the opinionated rubbish thrown your way is to say:-

Room acoustics do determine the limiting factors of your equipments potential. A really expensive piece of kit will never sound great in a bathroom no matter how good it is. I know that this is an extreme comparison (and rude comments should remain in the bathroom) but some peoples listening rooms with minimalist designs can be the most limiting factor…..arguably more than anything else.

I like cheapaudioman

and I had my own personal disappointing experience with him

It seems nothing will change...

 Like a bull blind by rage  seeing a red cap and going against it...

 

 

 

My point was not driving people against or for one  any reviewer...

my point was  that the "scamming" process in audio result from our own ignorance as consumers or as reviewers...

It is all right to pick gear pieces, inform ourselves about it , analysing reviewers takes, thinking about synergy...

But when we had bought the system the real job begin...

This real job is not connecting the system in the wall , judging it, and thinking to the next piece to buy... ( upgrades are not solution in half the case, metaphorically speaking, in half the case it result from our ignorance to use optimally the first piece before buying a second one)

The sound experience we will enjoy with any system at any price do not depend only of the gear system but mainly of the way we will be able to put it at his peak potential S.Q.

With mechanical, electrical, especially acoustical informed controls over our ears/brain/speakers/room relation..

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems nothing will change...
Like a bull blind by rage seeing a red cap and going against it...
My point was not driving people against or for one any reviewer...
my point was that the "scamming" process in audio result from our own ignorance as consumers or as reviewers...

Acoustics are critical and most people ignore that.
And it’s frustrating that people don’t see this.

Yes.

When we study acoustics we begin to understand how the gear pieces together or separately affec sound quality...

it is evident that  100 bucks speakers cannot gave a S.Q. rivalling top speakers...

It is a common place evidence...

My point is nevermind the speakers price , "half" of the soundfield quality will result from speakers/brain/room relation and from our ability or unability to control this relation.

 Reviewers are like the consumers to which they adress their opinions :  they sell the gear pieces chosen, they dont sell  or advertise about the way to control our experience with acoustics...

 At best they recommend panels...

 Reviewers as consumers are together in the same ignorance pit by the force of their circumstances, they focus on the gear design not acoustics concepts and experiments...

Dont accuse reviewers buy a mirror and confront your ignorance... It is what i have done for myself 8 years ago......

 

 

Exactly!

And they create battle (subjectivist versus objectivist) which are meaningless...

Acoustics are critical and most people ignore that.
And it’s frustrating that people don’t see this.

Yes.

The most stunning thing i ever experienced in audio, is the huge modification induced by the room materials composition not only the walls, floors, cellings composition, but the furniture... And the geometry and topology of the room...

More than that i was flabbergasted by the effect of small resonators made of cheap materials had on my sound experience... I created 100 of them... I call them "mechanical room equaliser"

Acoustics control dwarf choice between cables or between dac and amplifier... The only exception will be going from a very bad piece of gear to a top one...

 

All matter when we create an audio system , even cables... But nothing compare to acoustic analog control...

i dont own a digital room control ( save my modest equalizer now) or which will be the ideal tool and gear : the BACCH system for sure...

Why did i know if this system is so astounding if i did not even never listen to one ?

i studied acoustics...

I know what are the spatial aspects of sound and how to control them in my room... But an analog system as mine was is not ideal even if it is spectacular... It is not refined the way the BACCH system is...( my mechanical system dont adress for example HRTF  measures)

It is the only upgrade worth of my money...

I am happy and dont think about buying one now , my budget is very thin...

Ok i shut my mouth...

 

 

Understandable

The most stunning thing i ever experienced in audio, is the huge modification induced by the room materials composition not only the walls, floors, cellings composition, but the furniture... And the geometry and topology of the room...

 

Ok... starting to sound just a tad wacky now...a bit shun mooky...a bit crystalline kookalicious...maybe some stalactites and stalagmites are next in this acoustics intervention, eh? 

More than that i was flabbergasted by the effect of small resonators made of cheap materials had on my sound experience... I created 100 of them... I call them "mechanical room equaliser"

 

 

What sounds good to you? That's all that matters. Trust your ears. As you progress through this hobby your senses will evolve.  Always trust your ears.  You are the only one that can educate yourself. Enjoy the music.

Perhaps you are educated and know who Helmholtz is and why he is the father of modern acoustics and what his main tool was before electronics: mechanically tuned resonators ?

Keep sarcasm and think...

Ok... starting to sound just a tad wacky now...a bit shun mooky...a bit crystalline kookalicious...maybe some stalactites and stalagmites are next in this acoustics intervention, eh?

There is many devices in mechanical acoustics... This is one thing...

 

There is other devices completely secondary compared to acoustics devices...

Audiophiles called them "tweaks" ... I explored everything by the way in the last 12 yeears but never bought tweaks (save Schumann resonators )... i had opinion if i can justify them by facts or experiences ...

For example Schumann generators works but it is a mere tweaks and the effect is real and subtle but do not compared to the main tools from acoustics science..

I decided i will not spoke anymore of my non-acousticals experiments because they are secondary and funny experiments and because narrow mind use sarcasm to mock others... i dont like that...

Acoustics science rules audio not tweaks or separated gear pieces costly or not...

Sound is like a beast..

It exist in a volume...

To understand and perceive this "volume of sound" qualities in all his aspects you need to understand a minimum of acoustics concepts with your ears in your room. Then you need to modify your room to feel how the perception change with it.

If not you will feel that the sound come directly from the recording by dac/amp/speakers into your brain...A superstition we can observe among audiophiles who forgot the speakers is more a part of the room than just  a part of the amplifier and dac....

And if you dont like the sound , you will invest in a often useless upgrade, instead of optimizing or modifying your gear and room. if you like the sound,you may say it is my "taste" without knowing that it could be way better at low cost...

Acoustics has nothing to do with "taste"...

 

 

What sounds good to you? That’s all that matters. Trust your ears. As you progress through this hobby your senses will evolve. Always trust your ears. You are the only one that can educate yourself. Enjoy the music.

I sure know what a tuned resonator is, higher end studios tend to use them as they can be made more discreet....had one in  a former house, found something more broadband and better in recent times.

When you said you had a 100 Itty bitty ones that served as a "mechanical room equalizer", it started to sound a lil kookalicious.

On the same note, the effect of one can be clearly measured.  I suppose you didn't get that far or did you? Or did the effect of a cluster 100 whatever...of them do a number on ya?

Egyptian priests used resonators to "equalize" room temple sound... Before Hemlholtz..

I had 100 because i conducted experiments for many years with no cost materials from tube 8 feet high and large and straws and all dimensions in between.. I tuned them by ears...it takes me 2 years to complete 7 day/7...( Acoustics was my hobby then ) Way more fun than throwing money on a new dac because we are unsatisfied...

 

One single straw as part of a resonator mouth located at the right place create an audible effect...The location of the resonators matter too not only their dimension and cross ratio.. I also use them in a way to make a kind of mechanical crossfeed too for the speakers with some near the drivers...( i could not suppress crosstalk anyway in my room then i turned this impotency into and advantage i designed my version of mechanical crossfeed)

 

Now i dont own my past room, i must had sold my house but i used Helmhotz principle to modify my now small speakers vent hole because they are badly designd on all speakers for esthetical reason and cost...I modified my headphone too ...

For the measures:

you know that timbre is not a simple addition of pure frequencies because the ears perceive sound in his own time dimension. Timbre is a set of large band...

I used my ears to tune to my liking all my resonators in fonction of the timbre i wanted for the musical instruments like we tune a piano...My ears "measures" them one at times..each one compensate for others... There is a trade-off...

 

 

When all was completed my stereo system completely vanished..

My prefered opera Kurt Weill 4 penny opera soundfield was around me with natural timbre...

The singers walking and singing i was able to "see" their head turning...And sometimes singing next to my chair or near my shoulder...

Dr . Choueiri call that the spatial attributes of sound...H3e described them in his articles..

if you think that you can have this with one resonators or 2 sorry no...It is why without knowing what i did at the begining i add one at a time, each time gaining better S.Q, with each tuning.

but if you buy the BACCH system it will do this in a perfectly controlled way...

I called my resonators set a mechanical equalizer because it is exactly what it was...

The equalization process was tuned for my ears not by an electrical means...

The BACCH system will be better for sure but i know what it will do because i made it mechanically...

But some aspects cannot be made mechanically, as the measures of HRFT, or the control of the crosstalk cancellation etc...

It is why studying acoustics reading about sound perception is more valuable than reading reviewers who most of the time dont know really more about acoustics concepts than the customers who listen to them ..

It is why people invest big money in this hobby often without knowing what they do as an obsession..

i prefered to inform myself...

I was fascinated at some point by theoretical acoustics... What is sound... I discovered not only Dr. Gorike genius reading his patent about my headphone, not only Dr. Choueri genius insight into spatial aspects of sound control but a genius in pure acoustics theory i read in ectasy... He explain sound perception like no one else ... This is another story... I posted about it in a thread about spiritual aspect of music...( i posted many scientific articles about acoustics there but very few were interested in spite of the fact that there is a revolution in acoustics  and sound perception right now)

In life i am mostly interested by mathematics,linguistic,philosophy and acoustics and their relation...

I sure know what a tuned resonator is, higher end studios tend to use them as they can be made more discreet....had one in a former house, found something more broadband and better in recent times.

When you said you had a 100 Itty bitty ones that served as a "mechanical room equalizer", it started to sound a lil kookalicious.

On the same note, the effect of one can be clearly measured. I suppose you didn’t get that far or did you? Or did the effect of a cluster 100 whatever...of them do a number on ya?

 

Wait a minute... what if it is us scamming them?

 All matter when we create an audio system , even cables... But nothing compare to acoustic analog control...

Agreed, and the honest makers of good gear will say this. Interesting discussion here with a leader at Benchmark regarding what makes the biggest difference. Answer: the room.
 SEE: https://www.youtube.com/live/AIv79_NRASw?si=sfhN-PfIsr78DtQA&t=528

 

A consequence of this acoustics perspective and necessary training, is that all reviews are heavily conditioned by the acoustics conditions of the listening system/listener/room, then reviews are not an information which can indicate way more than personal taste.

Real synergy must be tested with many pieces of gear and measured techs.

For music recent scientific article demonstrated that we perceived "timbre" the same way among all cultures, and "timbre" is the root of musical various musical scales in use all around the world..

The consequences for audio are evident : the perception of timbre is one of the main aspect for music and cannot be measured by few techs numbers but must be listened to by ears/brain. ( one of the reason is in psycho-acoustics linked to the way the ears lives and brain create sound perception in his own non linear time domain).

 

If all reviews are subjectivist taste, and if all technical gear measures are objectivist limiting  insufficient few numbers; the only way to assign a meaningful value to a system/room is to study the acoustics basics and the varying acoustics parameters to makes each one of us in control of our own experience. Then free from our ignorance and easy prey for maketing.

 

Thanks for the video.

Agreed, and the honest makers of good gear will say this. Interesting discussion here with a leader at Benchmark regarding what makes the biggest difference. Answer: the room.
 SEE: https://www.youtube.com/live/AIv79_NRASw?si=sfhN-PfIsr78DtQA&t=528

You tuned a 100 resonators by ear??

Tubes... straws..all acting in unison??? serving as a mechanical room equalizer all tuned by ear????? Holmes, let us grab a hold of reality together for a minute...and you go ahead, follow some of this diy video on how to build a helmholtz resonator. Start cutting some wood, start with 1

Take some measurements and figure out what ’equalizing’ you may even need, to begin with...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUsyeBkNVEI

I had 100 because i conducted experiments for many years with no cost materials from tube 8 feet high and large and straws and all dimensions in between I tuned them by ears...

Everything counts.....I was shocked when I changed my power cable connections to Furutech

I already explained what i did...

And this youtube video present only One kind of Helmholtz resonators...

Then in your mind because you ignored the physical principle all resonators must be done in the same material and in the same way...

Buy an acoustic books to understand why there is many other way to design one...

Helmholtz originally use bottle with a thin aperture tuned ...

I also used 50 bottles of different size but prefered to use also tubes of various volumes of some lenght with a neck of various lenght because it was more easy to modify in the tuning process ...

None of mine were designed with wood...

I used tubes...

 

When you work with ONE Helmhotz resonators  as in this video it is because you want to modify some very specific thin range of frequencies...

I uses a distributed large set of resonators specifically located in the room and in relation to the speakers and listening position because i wanted to act on a larger set of frequencies and using location in the room as a tool to modify the room itself not just some specific frequency range......

Some resonators were next my speakers drivers, some behind me etc...

is it difficult to understand ? if so buy a book of acoustics...

 

 

 

What is a speakers with a vent hole ?

A Helmholtz resonator... with only one hole...

I modified my small speakers on the same principle guiding way...

I designed 100 not as a task...

I begun with one...

I observed the result...

Then i designed few others...

I discovered that location matter not just size...

Because a room is itself a resonator...

etc

 

Read book instead of trying to mock me as you did few months ago and right now in your preceding post...

my patience is thin with sarcasms...

 

Are you so surprized when a dude tune a piano by ear?

It is the same thing to tune a room...

Or are you surprized if someone do calculus in his head instead of using a computer?

My goal by the way was not "perfection" but results satisfying me and at the same time learning acoustics...

You buy gear upgrade, i learn acoustics... Is it so shocking ?

I used my ears , you do not and do not understand how , is it shocking ?

 

 

 

 

You tuned a 100 resonators by ear??

Tubes... straws..all acting in unison??? serving as a mechanical room equalizer all tuned by ear????? Holmes, let us grab a hold of reality together for a minute...and you go ahead, follow some of this diy video on how to build a helmholtz resonator. Start cutting some wood, start with 1

Take some measurements and figure out what ’equalizing’ you may even need, to begin with...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUsyeBkNVEI

I am very conscious that most people are not in retirement as i am, most people dont have the luxury of time to study and experiment, most people either dont have the luxury to have a dedicated room.

In some case they have money then they purchase gear pieces...

Then my claim that acoustics concepts concrete understanding matter more cannot be popular not a very welcome claim...

But truth matter...

I hope people begin to understand also that by acoustics i do not speak about room acoustic solved with few panels and devices but more importantly about a change in our own perception and understanding of sound..

Hearing is innate, listening must be learned and our mind must tame our brain as well as our room...

When our mind begin to tame our brain, i means that our biases change not only with parameters change but by our conceptual change...

Buying gear is secondary... And not interesting as such compared to the improvement you are able to create by yourself in the room and in your mind......

So you moved a 100 resonators around, tuned them all...they interact/complicate things, exacerbate other resonances or not, comb filter or whatever.....but, you placed a 100 resonators all in their ideal lil spots by ear??? not a single measurement involved.... 

Well, Mah, the bards shall sing of your acoustics genius for many generations, hereafter (starting with me... ). 

I modified my small speakers on the same principle guiding way...

I designed 100 not as a task...

I begun with one...

I observed the result...

Then i designed few others...

I discovered that location matter not just size...

Because a room is itself a resonator...

it seems sarcasm had replaced thinking...

You dont catch that a set of different resonators dont work as only one...A set work on a large band frequencies not a thin band. And a set work by modifying the room pressure zones distribution by his placement. A resonator not only absorb some frequencies but diffuse some others.

When you exacerbate a resonance you compensate with another tuning...

Comb filtering is not just a problem it is a tool...

How do you think Dr Gorike has deal with comb filters effects as a tool to create one of the best headphone ever the AKG K340 ?

He use 5 tuned Helmholtz resonators distributed at a specfic placement in the dual chamber of the headphone..

I studied his patent to modify and improve my pair..

I did as him but in my room using the same acoustics principles..

Anyway it is useless to discuss with you, i remember your sarcasms from my discussion with Amir.

Good evening...

 

So you moved a 100 resonators around, tuned them all...they interact/complicate things, exacerbate other resonances or not, comb filter or whatever.....but, you placed a 100 resonators all in their ideal lil spots by ear??? not a single measurement involved....

Well, Mah, the bards shall sing of your acoustics genius for many generations, hereafter (starting with me... ).

 

My point in this thread is about the way we scam ourselves by ignoring acoustics principles and trusting subjectivist reviewers or worst,objectivist reviewers...

Why ?

Because the 2 groups condition us to focus on gear design and pricing instead of focusing us on our own power to control acoustically our system/room not just buying upgrades..

And even if we cannot go very far in our our living room because our wife will not gave us any right here, we must read about acoustics to understand what is "sound"...

Thats my point...

Of course it can be useful if we must buy something to read reviewers of the 2 groups above, I am not against reviewers. They are most of them as ignorant than the consumers. because for them gear pieces matter more than acoustics..

For me it is evident it is the reverse, acoustics  makes us able to put any system at his peak potential...