Like many of you, I have been pondering purchasing these speakers but am very curious about the unusual tweeter array. I asked the smartest speaker person that I know (he is a student of Sean Olive) about the design and below is what he had to say.
"In theory it could work, but the driver spacing means that the crossover point would need to be very low. He is using the SB acoustics tweeter which is 72mm in diameter, center to center on the outside opposing drivers is around 5.7 inches, which is about 2400Hz. This means that combing would stop between 1/4 to 1/2 of the wavelength (between 1200-600Hz) is where the outside tweeters should start playing nice with each other. Since he is not using low enough crossover points he has created a comb filtering monster. Now while it's not the great point source that was promised, it's no worse than most line arrays and the combing will average itself out given enough listening distance.
The MTM spacing on the other hand is ridiculous. Hopefully he is cutting the top end off on one of those midrange drivers to avoid combing."
213runnin, don't you own Totem Rainmaker? Check the Stereophile measurements on them. The same 12 db swing in frequency response you are blasting Tekton for (-5/+7 db). Totem's specs state +/- 3 db, which are off by 100 percent. What good are those specs? Lots of really bad cabinet resonances too. I thought that kind of coloration wasn't your cup of tea. I have never heard Rainmaker so I can't comment on how it sounds, but the measurements do not look very good. But I have heard Arro, and liked them well enough for what they do. I am not a Tekton fanboy. I don't own any and have only heard the Pendragon when it was being hyped. They did some things I liked, but I would not buy them based on what I heard. Does that rule out the DI or Electron for me? Absolutely not. I would have to hear them first and decide from there. Too many people have said they are really, really good for me to dismiss them out of hand. I would certainly never disregard them based on a single audition of another model of the same brand. In the same vein, I would never dismiss them based on measurements of a different speaker. That would be foolish.
As far as I am concerned I believe that measurements do matter...to a point. If measurements were all that mattered then tube amps and preamps could not compete with the SS versions as they do not measure as well. Also LPs would not compete with CDs or digital files. But I would never tell someone that prefers tube equipment or LPs that they are wrong and the measurements prove it. They like what they hear and that matters. It would be nice if all we had to do is look at how something measures to know how it sounds but audio is not an exact science as some believe it is. It is complex and we think we know all that can be known. Yet we continue to find that we do not. Just a few years ago jitter did not matter...then jitter below a certain level did not matter...both proved wrong. There are plenty more depending how far back you want to go. Of course if something measures very poorly then it most likely will sound poorly. But NO one here knows exactly how the DI or the Ulf, etc measure, yet. And the one speaker that the nay sayers mention, the Enzo, did not measure poorly and JA said so in his overview of the measurements that he did of the speaker. Yes, it had an issue here and there but nothing that would be considered bad. And other areas were very good. So you have to look at it overall.
This idea that measurements don’t matter is nonsense from people who don’t understand them. The best kits out there always measure well. Look at the measurements done by Soundstage network at the NRC. The THD measurements alone say a lot about how clean your speakers will sound trying to reproduce massed strings and such. But nobody wants to talk about that. Then again if all you listen to is badly recorded rock, death metal and electronica, you don’t need to worry about measurements, Cerwin Vega type stuff will do nicely.
1) Your post said "frequency graph" and not range or response. So that is why some people said that you are wrong about other manufacturers posting graphs.
2) You are wrong again. Tekton does include frequency numbers on some of their speakers. As an example on one, the DI. +/- 1dbl 70hrz - 20krz. Range 20hrz - 30krz. On another it is +/- .05dbl with the same measurements. Yes, the +/- range below 70hrz is not stated. But I highly doubt it is not in an acceptable range.
I think what Tekton is trying to stress is that these two speakers are ruler flat in the most critical areas.
Also l must say that you either have an agenda or are trolling because you continue to mention the Stereophile review which is about A DIFFERENT MODEL. You continue to bad mouth the design and the build. But you have NO personal experience with them.
Look, you're not entitled to SAVE everyone from themselves.
So one thing can be certainly said, those speakers will color the sound, and change the music from what the artist intended.
This is not necessarily a bad thing as one can argue that hifi is getting things better than the original recording. Of course that's a preference.
It's common for some hifi brands to voice a rising response from 2-7k to give the speaker it's over detailed sound. The "I'm hearing things in the recording that I've never heard before" is a clue that you are listening to boosted speakers. A dip in the presence zone from 7-8k helps the speakers "disappear."
IMO, this is part of the fun of hifi. If we wanted super accurate speakers, we would be talking about our Genelec Studio monitors, which were probably used in the studio by the recording engineers. But these speakers are no fun to listen to...no extra sparkles, dips, or sweetness.
At the end of the day, the recording engineers go home and listen to the sweet lies of their hifi systems.
Two Erics agreeing, there must be some kind of good karma wrapped up in that. :)
As to the statement that no measurements are published, there are several published on each Tekton model, save one. Hey Eric, publish what you want, it’s your company. The Enzo XL, which Stereophile measured, went up to 6 decibels to the plus and minus, which adds up to a 12 decibel swing.
So one thing can be certainly said, those speakers will color the sound, and change the music from what the artist intended. And since Tekton withholds this spec from every single model, one can assume that all of their speakers color the sound. Not my cup of tea.
PS: B&W do indeed publish the frequency response, which is what I’m referring to. frequency range with - or + decibel range. So then I looked at the Martin Logan site. Same thing, they include the decibel range, not sure what point you’re trying to make, Eric S.
Also, this BS phase / comb filter issue is easy to test two ways
1. Play music. Sit in sweet spot. Stand up. Sound weird? No? No problem.
2. Play music. Walk across the sound field. Sound weird? No? Then no problem.
The basic FR measurements would not cover this. Off-axis measurements would, and all speakers have some of this. However had Eric really flubbed the tweeter array, it would be absolutely obvious to any listener. This isn't a hidden attribute only the best listeners could hear. ANYONE could hear it if present.
Once again, and for the record... why I choose to not publish measurements:
"I've discerned over the years, the biggest gripe the critical types have with me is my decision to not publish measurements and/or extremely detailed loudspeaker specs. This really sends the tweakers into orbit! I design and build 'audio engine's'. Roger Penski, an internal combustion racing engine master said: "If you say anything to anyone, it's like cutting your paycheck in half." I appreciate his sentiment and wisdom."
John Atkinson did publish Tekton Measurements, this was the Enzo XL a few years back. I'd say we passed his tests and John had overall good things to say about the Enzo XL. And KEY to this dubious thread is no-comb-filtering reflected in John's measurements.
Oh, wow, this is so true, I mean, B&W, Magico and Martin Logan all publish FR graphs !!! << face-palm >>
No, no they don’t. It is not common practice at all. What is with this continuing onslaught of FUD not to mention double standards being pushed for this brand? Sheesh.
What I don't get is why Tekton is withholding the frequency response graph of their speakers, so prospective customers can see how the speakers compare with their own, or with other brands.
Zu Audio did the same thing as far as not releasing measurements. When reviewers started to release the measurements and they weren't favorable, folks who value objective measurements turned on Zu and began smearing their name.
If John Atkinson of Stereophile were to release poor measurements, then the Tekton's would be the high SPL equivalent of a Zu product. Some folks would feel duped while others would say that their ears are all that matters.
I too doubted the Tekton "hype". I purchased and put the DI on trial against my long loved B&W 804s in my home. The DIs were clearly superior at less than half the price. I now have the Ulfs on order from Eric. Some of us backup our first-hand testing and knowledge with investments in products that prove their worth. Some of us are just trollboys.
It does sound like the DI are amazing value. Cutting out the retailer must be a big part of it. A $6000 speaker sold direct from factory could be easily $3000 as no dealer cut.
I recall Energy Pro 22 punched well above their weight but that is three decades ago. It is nice to see this challenger but I wonder if factory direct is the way of the future? I keep seeing audiophile stores closing down...is the old bricks and mortar model broken?
If James_514 says they are better value than ATC SCM 40 then I believe it. I actually would not expect ATC with an everything in-house built approach can compete with cost effective boxes filled with off the shelf low cost drivers sold factory direct - at least not on price or value and may be the quality difference is just not enough for many to justify the extra expense. I bought my large cinema screen factory direct and it was indeed tremendous value over a Stewart screen so I am not at all averse to the direct model. Bring it on!
So it sounds like a professional reviewer prefers the DI over the
Wilson Sasha, and that's fine. I may or may not agree with his taste when it comes to speakers and gear. What I don't get is why Tekton is withholding the frequency response graph of their speakers, so prospective customers can see how the speakers compare with their own, or with other brands.
Tekton is withholding this information because they don't want it known, there is no other reasonable explanation. And to suggest that all other speaker brands don't give every subtle nuance is just more over-the-top ad copy.
We now have Michael Wright at Stereo Times pulling the Wilson Sasha's out of his rig for the Double Impacts because they perform to a higher level. The fact is... I've had multiple people to call me and email me to inform me of the fact the DI's sound superior to the Wilson Sasha's.
Here's a quote from the REAL Double Impact Audiogon thread from a few days back:
"Just to be clear on the statements I made about the DI's and my Sasha's a couple of months ago; the DI's, overall, did outperform my Sasha's. From the mid-bass up through their hi frequency performance, they were more enjoyable and more musically engaging than the Sasha's. The level of performance and achievement, especially in the all important lower mid-range to upper bass region of the DI's, is exemplary. Eric Alexander and his team should be lauded for what they have accomplished. To gain this level of performance is commendable for a speaker at any cost, but at $3,000??? It should have been interesting, sitting around the Tekton board-room table and hearing Eric discussing the lofty design goals he had for the DI's, then share with his confidantes that he could do it all for around $3,000 retail. I'm sure somebody snickered and said "Yeah right". All I can say is interested parties should get their speakers soon before Tekton figures out what they have on their hands and puts their speakers thru a well deserved pricing restructure." - Michael Wright
I also received a note from a client on Monday informing me of the fact the Impact Monitor outperformed the B&W D3's. A month ago a client called me to inform me the Impact Monitors has bested the Vanderseetn 7's.
We're doing something really special here and this is audio news. There's literally thousands of loudspeakers to choose from these days and the lowest common denominator is this: do you want to hear every subtle nuance and detail contained within your source material (music) or simply most of it..?!
an invite for an in home demo with and against different amps and speakers..can't ask for more than that.. that might lead to a Buy and Try.or that Fava Bean dinner
I invite anyone that questions the performance to put their system of equal or double the value up for comparison against the modest Pass Labs X250.5 & Double Impact pairing I have in my listening room at the moment. If you are passing through the BC interior from Vancouver, Calgary or anywhere this is an open invite. Postulating about gear is nice and all but let’s do some real world testing and comparisons. I’ve always got pricey speakers and amps around to demo against them as well. I would welcome some criticisms at this point. Worst case scenario you will leave with your doubts and reservations confirmed while talking shop with a fellow audio nut.
Asking how they fair over time is is a great question that I wonder about myself. With the ever changing models it is hard to know. So much has come and gone in this silly hobby over the decades.
I suspect your reservations (BS meter) are worth following. Why not wait and see how Tekton fairs over time.
When Zu took guitar cabinet speakers from Eminence and then made a full range speaker by claiming small mods to these designs can work full range (instead of what they were designed for) there was a huge buzz. Zu was the darling of these forums. As a musician I know how little the drivers for guitar cabinets cost and how the designs have more in common with PA than high fidelity but for sure I can see how these high sensitivity drivers are ideal for tubes as most guitar amp heads are tube driven. So my background knowledge raised alarm bells but I recognized that Zu had some advantages with tubes.
I recommend to wait. There is always a buzz when there is something completely new especially an unconventional approach (7 tweeters!). I read somewhere that the DI sounds like a panel but with much higher sensitivity. This seems to be what they bring to the table and it makes sense that comb filtering from a large star pattern of tweeters is going to sound more like a panel than a conventional design with one tweeter.
So my guess, not having heard them, is that they will sound like a panel but with a high sensitivity that allows them to be driven by a modest tube amplifier. Like Zu I see this as fulfilling a niche for those who like modest tubes but are looking for something more dynamic than is typically available in audiophile soeaker designs which tend to subscribe to low distortion and full range flat frequency response and even dispersion (the kind of things Stereophile's Atkinson would focus on).
Tektons are like a box of chocolates.. until you try them you never know what ure gonna get.
Exactly, and that is the main problem with Tekton speakers. Forget about the plain cabinet and low budget looking woofers. Forget about the bombastic ad copy that Tekton chooses to use on their site. Forget about the comb filtering issues. Forget about the badly vibrating cabinet that Stereophile discovered.
Tekton will not tell you how their speakers perform across the frequency range. Oh, they'll tell you a given model will go from 30-30,000 Hz, but not how close it stays to flat across that range. And as Stereophile found out, the Enzo measured REALLY badly. Will a given model have a big mid range dip as the Enzo does? Will it color the sound to the extent that a given piece of music sounds completely different? Who knows.
"call a member of this forum a troll simply because hes not buying the BS Tekton is dishing is shamefull"
missioncoonery, shameful is with one l but that aside, whether you agree our not, you meet the troll criteria. Not because of expressing your opinion but because of the choice of tone and style. We can agree to disagree without bashing each other. I hope someone who really loves you surprises you by giving you a pair of Tekton DIs on your next birthday.
I may sell my DI speakers soon and buy a pair of their Ulf's or mini Ulf's I haven't decided but I'm wandering if you would like to buy my DI's if I do sale.
"I'm a big Tekton Fanboy! But discoursing wit folks like 213runnin is huge waste of time, he is a Troll. Best, mikirob"
I find the 10 or 15 guys that are screaming their heads off over and over and over how great Tekton is ,is a major turn off.Personally I found what the designer /owner of Tekton wrote on this site made him come across as someone I would never do business with,BS and full of himself.The speakers IMO do looks like something I would make in my little wood shop.Even if they sounded good thats a disqualifer for me as Im not looking at that in my audio room everyday.The drivers used are cheap or cheaper.The line fell on its face at the Los Angeles show.The specs (what little there are) are uuum average at best.You cant even go directly to Tekton to audition because they have no listening show room,thats comical.The attacks of Tenton are only brought on by their claims "people trade in 30K speakers to buy these"..oooh yea,I believe that.To say all other speaker designs are now obsolete,pure hogwash.IMO the maker has brought a lot of this on himself but to call a member of this forum a troll simply because hes not buying the BS Tekton is dishing is shamefull
We all have a certain responsibility to these threads to report the truth of a product the best we can and pure "Speculation" without even listening or owning the product is really not a opinion that means anything substantial.
You always have to remember folks are reading these threads and they use these informed opinions to base their purchasing decisions.
I personally don't comment on any product unless I have actually listened to it or own it,Now I know I'm luckier than some in that being a member of a local audio club I get to listen,borrow and loan all kinds of top gear.
Disclaimer,I'm not just talking about this thread or only Tekton speakers,I'm talking in general terms.
213,
Ok this is the last time I'll respond. Your latest post looks like you are
trying to say you are being bullied for giving opinions on the speakers. Here
are excerpts from a few of your posts... Need a hanky?
"A noisy square
box with low budget drivers, what an awful design that they are charging way
too much for."
" Econo box
performance. At least you can pay extra to put a grill on that ugly
mug."
"But I'll bow out as I've made my
points for anyone looking for the pros and cons of speakers by Tekton." (this did not happen)
The comb filtering thing is ridiculous in a modern speaker. $3000 is a complete rip off, but Bose sold junk to suckers for many years before people got wise to those little cube home theater nonsense speakers. (you are assuming they have an issue with comb filtering, again never heard them)
“I expect in a couple of years, unless Tekton gets
serious about speaker design, the latest flavor of the month will be up for
sale in the used marketplace in droves. Too bad that marketing and the
lemming instincts of the internet herd can cause such a waste of money.” (so you are basically calling anyone that likes Tektons a Lemming / Sucker?)
This doesn't exactly feel like constructive criticism to me. If you heard them pretty sure you would change your tune but the fact that you haven't and are making such bullish claims tends to get on peoples nerves.
"with" not "wit" as above; must be a Freudian slip as I was thinking someone runnin' was perhaps, just might be a nit. Ok, I'll apologize now in advance, but I couldn't help thinking it. Best to you, happy listening...mikirob
213, we now have patented speakers that have made all other speakers obsolete. You may not poo-poo them and call them ugly! We need many more Tekton threads. The Tektonians have made Audiogon great again, deal with it. #MAGA
Mofo, I was not beating on them, 3 or 4 of you were beating on me(and I was responding to that) for daring to critique them. Name calling and personal attacks about me and my gear for goodness sakes. Instead of simply countering my points, which at least some of the members bothered to do eventually.
Note to self, never critique Tekton, not even in a thread so named.
213, It's not the fact that you are criticizing them. It's the fact you are beating on them like they owe you money and you have never heard them or any other Tekton for that matter. I am however getting somewhat of a kick from seeing what is gonna come out of your mouth next.
It is indeed tired and dated, but fanboys attacking anybody that has a critical opinion of their speakers or other items has a long tradition on audio forums, unfortunately. The first time I ran into this behaviour was on the Emotiva forum. It was somewhat like a cult over there.
Everything was fine while I was buying their products and reporting my joy, but as soon as I started finding the limits of their gear it was fanboy attack time. I noticed others who had similar views might even disappear from the forum. Ah well, hopefully Tekton can survive it if a small minority don't care for them.
james, you have no idea what my "education" may be with this hobby. I suggest you read more of my posts than the last week to see what I’ve owned previously. Parasound Halo, Paradigm Signature, etc. In the last year I got bored with my systems and sold most of it off to experiment with what’s out there these days.
And I’m talking about the Enzo speaker, James. Not sure why I have to keep reminding you. Perhaps you should try some of your ineffectual fanboy attacks on the poster that posted the Enzo link, since he’s the one that brought the Enzo into the discussion. But it’s fair to discuss more than one model in a Tekton thread. Only a fanboy would cry foul.
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