Geoff says, "The audio industry suffers the same problem that the tennis racquet industry and the car industry face: they MUST come up with something that either IS new or appears to be new in the eyes of the customer. And they must do it once every year or two. It’s called planned obsolescence." First , I like the way I used the Geoff chronic habit of first quoting what someone else wrote in his jabs. But moving on, although you are stating that "new" sells, although it may only "appear" to be new, all your energy goes towards defending these "tweaks". Yes it really really does. The defense rests its case your honor. |
Did someone just squeeze jitter's head? 💩 💩 💩
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🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶 🚶 🚶 Do the little blind naysayer people following the little blind nonbeliever sheep all play tennis? |
You don’t know what you don’t know. Audio kind of mirrors the technical developments in the tennis racket game. What were once brilliant innovations are now forgotten blunders or at least not so brilliant. The whole tennis racquet thing is quite similar in many respects to the game of audio. Is it the strings? Is it the frame? Is it the tension of the strings? Is it the damper? Is it the string-a-lings Federer favors in his racquets? Or a combination of everything? How important is the skill of the player? As far as materials for tennis rackets go they started out with wood, various hardwoods. Then moved up to the harder stuff, aluminum, titanium, tungsten, copper, all with the desirable qualities of stiffness, lightness and strength. There was graphite, and boron and Kevlar too, and carbon. Even liquid metal, in quotes. Now they’ve even got Graphene. Whoa!
Are the latest racquets, the ones with presumably more technically advanced materials and design really better than racquets from 20 years ago? That’s the $64K question. They are definitely better than the racquets from 30 years ago. And guess what, they’re all made in China. Have been for a very long time. A sponsor would most likely withdraw the big bucks if the player demanded to play big tournaments like Wimbledon with a twenty year old racquet rather than the latest model, no?
The audio industry suffers the same problem that the tennis racquet industry and the car industry face: they MUST come up with something that either IS new or appears to be new in the eyes of the customer. And they must do it once every year or two. It’s called planned obsolescence.
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I don't quite follow your logic. Are you suggesting Randy should not question your "liquid metal" because of quantum entanglement? Maybe you are suggesting us mere mortals could never understand the physics behind your cables like you do?
Help me understand..... |
"Objectivity is a fail" and "subjectivity will rule the roost in all facets" seem to be very objective statements. The assertion that ’everything is so complex that all interactions are too intricate for us to even begin to understand’ only opens the door that nothing we see or hear is real. So everything we think we know is in quicksand; not sure how that helps the discussion Another quote randomly pulled from a 300+ page fully detailed and researched book) (I’d recently shared with someone else): There was plenty of research on telepathy. There’d been the highly successful card experiments of Joseph Rhine, used by Mitchell (edgar-astronaut)in outer space. Even more convincing were the studies of the Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn in the late 1960s, conducted in its special dream research laboratory. Montague Ullman and Stanley Krippner had conducted numerous experiments like the one with the Mexican painting to see if thoughts could be sent and incorporated into dreams. The Maimonides work had been so successful that when analyzed by a University of California statistician who was expert in psychic research, the total series had showed an astonishing accuracy rate of 84per cent. The odds of this happening by chance were a quarter of a million to one.
There’d even been some evidence that people can empathetically feel another’s pain. A psychologist named Charles Tart in Berkeley had
designed a particularly brutal study, administering electric shocks to himself to see if he could ‘send’ his pain and have it register with a receiver, who was hooked up to machines which would measure heart rate, blood volume and other physiological changes.
What Tart found was that his receivers were aware of his pain, but not on a conscious level. Any empathy they might have had was registering physiologically through decreased blood volume or faster beating of the heart – but not consciously. When questioned, the participants hadn’t any idea when Tart was getting the shocks.
Tart also had shown that when two participants hypnotize each other, they experience intense common hallucinations.They also claimed to have shared an extrasensory communication, where they knew each other’s thoughts and feelings.
This bit and a thousand other bits like it, all fully properly researched by accredited scientists and fully peer reviewed and published widely, brings you to that point made recently by Elon Musk..about it being billions to one that you exist in a base reality... and are not in some sort of confined or bubbled simulation, where another set of rules is the underwriter..that the ’facts’ of the physics we have in those tombs of known physics are the unfolding reality in totality and completeness..well..that is shown to be a child’s whining forced dream that cannot ever be. Uncomfortable as it may be, for some. Quicksand for the mind in the quandary? yes, probably. The other part is animal level denial of what the logic and the data says. Going ’la,la,la..I can’t hear you!!’...actually works. Ain’t that a peach. Entanglement makes it so. That a reality 'superset' exists and it's not comfortable (at all!) to the 3d animal level bits of the experience. |
The idea of a horse-less carriage is definitely not a flop.
Steam engines for cars however, we can call a complete flop, though we can argue they put us on the road towards the internal combustion engine.
Cars with electric engines are pretty mainstream now. I won’t call a Camry a Tesla, of course, but the general principle of using electric engines in automobiles has gained a large acceptance and created a vigorous marketplace. Whether 100% electric or hybrids, is still being debated.
ESL’s and time-aligned speakers, even if the best speakers ever made, have not exactly caught on mainstream, but continue to participate in the marketplace. Probably as well as horn speakers but better than single-driver models.
ESL's and time-aligned are certainly doing a lot better than Betamax.
The Carver Magnetic Field amplifier - I would _almost_ call it a flop by now but Yamaha, NuForce and NAD seem to be producing models based on a similar ideas.
Best,
E
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I kind of assumed Randee was referring to one of his favorite companies, Teo Cables, which uses liquid for the conductor, you know, as opposed to the more mundane PAD cables that use liquid in the jacket.
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"What was old is new again.." Over and over....
ESLs' are great when done properly. Same for TLs' and pretty much any cabinet design and execution when the drivers are selected for the application.
Line source has their adherents....you either love 'em or hate them. They 'go loud' Beautifully. Accurately? Well, debate away....
Plasmas are beyond 'niche'. Nowhere near 'practical', but interesting to hear....then go outside for awhile....take some deep breaths.
Time aligning....seems to matter most to the equipment used to measure such. Some can hear its' effects, most don't. Not applied to the majority of offerings, and is only noted by those that apply it.
As usual, cost and execution will drive what you pay for what you desire and consider important or necessary. From the front equipment to the drivers you hear. 'Twas always thus, and no end in sight.
Yup...Capt. Obvious strikes again. *G* Enjoy what you've got, lust for what you desire. ;) |
Re: liquid filled cables, I assume Randy means the Purist Audio Design cables. Bought two pair in the 1990’s (nicknamed "Texas Water Cables" by Stereophile).and they still sound very good. PAD is very much alive some 25 years later and continues to make and sell excellent sounding cables and power cords, albeit with different substances now inside the jacket.
Dave |
Sony Betamax
Spent a lot of time borrowing CD's from the library 35 years ago and putting 4 albums on a L750 tape - PCM digital taping on the cheap - still have two players gathering dust
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Not to ruffle anyone's feathers, but how about liquid cables? Definitely a niche. Too early to say if it will stand the test of time? |
Actually quantum entanglement is not really generalizable to apply to everything. It's a specific quantum mechanics term. For example, the team of Chinese scientists who recently established the new distance record for teleportation relied on quantum entanglement. They didn't actually teleport a particle from one place to another like Jeff Goldblum in The Fly.
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In related news, in science, as of today:
"Quantum theory has many strange features compared to classical theory," Richens told Phys.org. "Traditionally we study how the classical world emerges from the quantum, but we set out to reverse this reasoning to see how the classical world shapes the quantum.
........
The take-away is that all possible statements, theories and seeming rules of all objective scientific analysis all contain quantum entanglement. .... Which... means that objectivity is a fail.
That objectivity is not universal but in a localized bubble and outside of that, is, well, a pipe dream a forced projection, a non thing, in the overall analysis. A cute experiment and it can’t and does not exist. Subjectivity is illustrated by the same dominoes falling, to rule the roost in all facets.
"Objectivity is a fail" and "subjectivity will rule the roost in all facets" seem to be very objective statements. The assertion that ’everything is so complex that all interactions are too intricate for us to even begin to understand’ only opens the door that nothing we see or hear is real. So everything we think we know is in quicksand; not sure how that helps the discussion. |
Success in terms of popularity often means mediocrity in terms of performance.
I agree 100%. Best example I can think of is the MP3 format. Further, just because a product design caters to a niche market, it does not make it a flop, this is so strange to me. Porsche made a rear-engined car, vast majority of cars have engines in the front, so Porsche tech must be a flop! |
Sorry Teo, but if you post something you clearly don't know much about you may get a response from somebody who does know about it, and thus you learn something. You're welcome. |
That’s what I was trying to say Doug.
One reason that there are not more time-aligned speakers is that there are not many designers (one?) left alive that can master the technological challenges of successfully implementing the first-order crossover in a real-world, full range loudspeaker, although it is a simpler crossover at a basic level. Drivers have to exceed "typical performance" in reproducing cleanly and accurately outside of the standard frequency range limitations for each size/type.
Another is that it is expensive to do this well and recent threads here show that a big chunk of today’s marketplace prefers good/very good sound at a (relatively) low price as their primary buying criteria. Makes sense yet (smart?) compromises are made to keep prices low. Hard to overcome that reality despite the promise of other more expensive designs, regardless of their merit.
Dave
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I think mass market appeal in technology and success is not always an indication of quality or even good sound. Magnepan comes to mind. Planar speakers are not mass market success products but they have held their own for many years and to many people.... sound fantastic. Horn speakers are still around and have many, many fans. The low power matching to tube amps produce, to a great many audiophiles, enduring great sound. In another audio technology, what about record albums? Is that an enduring mass market technology? I guess so but they were in danger of fading out of mass market favor.
The best technology does not always succeed, but perhaps the successful marketing pushes technology into favor among the masses. I think really good technology will prevail, as a general rules, even if it has to wait to be accepted. It will need some successful marketing/advertising though.... |
Success in terms of popularity often means mediocrity in terms of performance. |
Erik,
There are hybrid Camry's. Teslas are much more than just electric cars. Few will own them. Does that make them any less fine automobiles or less significant?
I just can't grab the significance of the argument. Sorry.
Dave
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So one technology that has absolutely not flopped (even if not implemented consistently) are Beryllium domes.
It's rare, but multiple driver and speaker manufacturers have jumped on that bandwagon. Speaker makers include:
Focal
Magico
TAD
Yamaha (long ago)
While drivers from Scanspeak, SB, Radian, Seas are available over the counter, and without a hazmat suit. There have also been fake Be tweeters, and "alloys" which are basically everything but Be still available through china. The immitation is kind of proof that this is not a flop.
E
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I think that the technology of electric cars is far beyond a niche any more, and it was the tech I was more interested in than the brands.
Best,
E
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Hi Erik,
Camry’s sell far better than Teslas. Bigger impact? Depends on your point of view.
I was keying on your remarks about the sound not being anything special or similar. Time-aligned speakers require extreme attention to detail in setup and carefully matched ancillary equipment/cabling to do their magic. My holding is that few have heard Thiels set up properly and your remarks lead me to believe you may not yet be one of them, so I offered to change that. :)
Best to you Erik,
Dave
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@dlcockrum
So what percentage of hi fi speakers would you say are time aligned? I'm not a Hi Fi industry wizard, but have they occupied a larger market than I know?
Erik
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Whew...Erik...buddy. I hate to say it but you are a good bit off on your statements about time-aligned speakers.
You are welcome at my place anytime. Really.
Dave |
Eric, first let me say that despite what might appear to be a pattern of antagonistic responses from me to your posts, I really do look forward to your contributions and respect your opinions, whether I fully agree with them or not. :-) Dammit. As hwy61 had already mentioned in this thread; can one dismiss a product like Vandersteens venerable model 2 as niche’ product? I suspect that speakers like Dunlavy, Thiel and Vandersteen ( include Quad 63’s ?) have had sizable high end market shares for a considerable length of time. Hmmm, by overall sales, how many high end speakers do you think sitting in people’s homes are "time aligned?" Vandersteen and Thiel are clearly successful brands, but even if we combine them, have they revolutionized speaker manufacturing? Again, this is not meant to be a judgement of quality. Just overall market acceptance of the design principles. Clearly Vandersteen and Thiel have kept the lights on as well as any boutique makers can. But first order filters, time alignment and minimum baffle designs are the technology which I’m honing in on. As a counter example, AMT drivers were a niche, which has now, post patent, exploded. All sorts of good and poor implementations are upon us. It is well past "niche" status. Best, E |
jnovak, it was the ADS Model 10 Acoustic Dimension Synthesizer. I had one in the early 80s. Fairly effective unit for time delay effects. You could emulate a cathedral, large hall, small hall or club.
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I had a time delay unit from the late 70's or early 80's. I'm thinking it was made by ADS. Help me out on this! It was early surround sound. It was a brown unit that used two speakers for rear delay. Does anyone remember this? Joe |
Teo should be aware of the piles of sealed box guitar speakers (most Marshalls, and many, many others), the actual extremely sophisticated bass amp rigs of varying types (some of which I own and use) utilized by professional musicians far more aware of modern technology than Teo seems to be (Aguilar…look it up), the direct to mixing board/amp mixed bass recording techniques utilized by professional sophisticated bass players, and the generally excellent bass tone of most well recorded brilliant musicians (Larry Grenadier? Avashai Cohen?) in many of the musical genres people actually carefully listen to…perhaps not in much pop or hip hop where a specific style of overload might be more appropriate, but still…mud could be part of your system, and I suggest you clean it up. That’s quite the pile of projected suppositional strawmen. Something nicely built up and in the end thrown in my face as if I am the shape of those things. Bizarre. I don't know what to say except - please, don't. |
Eric, first let me say that despite what might appear to be a pattern of antagonistic responses from me to your posts, I really do look forward to your contributions and respect your opinions, whether I fully agree with them or not. :-)
As hwy61 had already mentioned in this thread; can one dismiss a product like Vandersteens venerable model 2 as niche' product? I suspect that speakers like Dunlavy, Thiel and Vandersteen ( include Quad 63's ?) have had sizable high end market shares for a considerable length of time.
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Speaking of delay, whatever happened to digital time delay? Did it do the old floperino? Audio Pulse Model One. Yeah, Buddy!
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^Given proper spacing and ergo time delays, the ear/brain can discriminate between original and delayed reflected sound. As few in options as they might be, most of the better known speakers with this capability are designed with rather wide such dispersion characteristics.
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Well, the problem with "time aligned" speakers like Thiele, etc. is that they.... really aren't. Yes, you can put a microphone at some position and get the direct sound pressure from all drivers to arrive at the same time there. But only the acoustically naiive believe that only the sound coming directly from a driver to your ear is what matters -- most of the sound energy gets to you by other paths, and its effect is far from irrelevant. The number of loudspeaker designs that are "time aligned" or "phase coherent" toward other targets than straight ahead is very very small. |
The Ampeg SVT bass amp, for years the gold standard for bass players, is certainly not a sloppy-sounding bass reflex design, but a clean sealed one. Recordings of it with a Fender P-Bass plugged into it sound great on my speakers and subs. |
Teo should be aware of the piles of sealed box guitar speakers (most Marshalls, and many, many others), the actual extremely sophisticated bass amp rigs of varying types (some of which I own and use) utilized by professional musicians far more aware of modern technology than Teo seems to be (Aguilar…look it up), the direct to mixing board/amp mixed bass recording techniques utilized by professional sophisticated bass players, and the generally excellent bass tone of most well recorded brilliant musicians (Larry Grenadier? Avashai Cohen?) in many of the musical genres people actually carefully listen to…perhaps not in much pop or hip hop where a specific style of overload might be more appropriate, but still…mud could be part of your system, and I suggest you clean it up. |
Teo,
Interesting, but maybe we need a new thread? I'm having trouble following your logic at the end.
Best,
E
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Infinite baffle, as a term.. can ’loosely’ apply to a sealed box where the box resonance is below the woofer’s natural resonance and spring volume equivalent. When saying it, meaning, applying it to this given scenario... try to indicate this is the reason why you are misusing and throwing the term about.
Some confuse open baffle with infinite baffle. Open baffle is open, it has no sealed enclosure for the given low frequency driver.
Infinite baffle, as a term, more correctly applies to an actual infinite baffle, ie a wall mount where the other side is another fully separate room, or fully separated space. but it does not have to truly be sealed, this separate space... just that the two spaces, the front to be listened to and the rear to be separated - have something akin to zero capacity to interact with one another.
eg, most guitar amplifiers are what one would more correctly call open baffle, and most bass amp cabinets are either bass reflex or sealed. This is an area where the problem with home audio has created very very bad bass on the music production side. Big freaking mistake.
Home audio applications of bass reflex have made it to the bass guitar end of things and bass players are buying and using bass reflex cabinets. BIG MISTAKE. When we play this back on our rigs that use bass reflex speakers, we end up with the bass guitars sounding like MUD.
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@mr_m Thanks for bringing that up. According to this article, it means both wall and very large cabinet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_enclosure#Sealed_.28or_closed.29_enclosuresI need to make a correction to my discussion with @donvito101 (but just one) based on that article: I was wrong about sealed always being acoustic suspension. Infinite Baffle designs are sealed and not AS. Definitely a flop! Isobarik enclosures are extremely rare, and technically sealed, but not called "sealed." They are called "isobarik," I was not wrong about: - In current usage "sealed" is always synonymous with "acoustic suspension" unless otherwise stated.
- The BBC LS3 models however are far too small to be Infinite Baffle and are clearly AS.
- Acoustic suspension is still one of the most popular speaker cabinet technologies in the world.
The B&W Nautilus concept is infinite baffle, but not sealed. Very much a niche, though lately Focal has copied the idea for their tweeters. More info on the LS3 here: http://www.ls35a.com/Lastly, most 3-way or more speaker systems use AS in the midrange even if the woofer is bass-reflex. There are weird exceptions. Best, E |
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Infinite baffle speakers. A term from the 60's and 70's. Can't remember if it meant a speaker driver mounted in a wall, or a very large sealed cabinet speaker. Or both...... |
DBX records - Never even heard of them! But dbx made a comeback in TV stereo transmission. :)
E
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I have heard Fritz speakers. I think his careful choice of drivers, balance and price point should not be underestimated.
But series crossovers are an absolute niche too. :)
E
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@unsound As for time aligned speakers:
niche (adj.): denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
I would say that they qualify. That is not to disparage their fans or manufacturer's passion. Just that they haven't won everyone over yet. E |
I’m with Erik - for more than 30 years, I have been a lover of ESLs and Ribbons. No mater how elaborate, how much hype or how expensive the box, I don’t believe I’ll be ditching my love for the ESLs and ribbons. It’s good though, that everyone has their own likes and preferences - otherwise, it would be a very mono and boring world...Jim
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garebear...if you don't care - stay out of the post...just sayn
Jim
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How about this one ? ..." Who Cares " |
Time aligned speakers a niche'? Perhaps, but I'm not so sure. While not many manufacturers apply the principles, most of the few that do or did, achieved lasting high end critical acclaim, and significant high end market success. Sadly a couple of the most successful proponents passed away, leaving voids that have yet to find replacements with the necessary skills.
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DBX records......Only one or two had real music content and the complex approach soon slipped into oblivion.
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