The idea of a horse-less carriage is definitely not a flop.
Steam engines for cars however, we can call a complete flop, though we can argue they put us on the road towards the internal combustion engine.
Cars with electric engines are pretty mainstream now. I won’t call a Camry a Tesla, of course, but the general principle of using electric engines in automobiles has gained a large acceptance and created a vigorous marketplace. Whether 100% electric or hybrids, is still being debated.
ESL’s and time-aligned speakers, even if the best speakers ever made, have not exactly caught on mainstream, but continue to participate in the marketplace. Probably as well as horn speakers but better than single-driver models.
ESL's and time-aligned are certainly doing a lot better than Betamax.
The Carver Magnetic Field amplifier - I would _almost_ call it a flop by now but Yamaha, NuForce and NAD seem to be producing models based on a similar ideas.
Best,
E
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So one technology that has absolutely not flopped (even if not implemented consistently) are Beryllium domes.
It's rare, but multiple driver and speaker manufacturers have jumped on that bandwagon. Speaker makers include:
Focal
Magico
TAD
Yamaha (long ago)
While drivers from Scanspeak, SB, Radian, Seas are available over the counter, and without a hazmat suit. There have also been fake Be tweeters, and "alloys" which are basically everything but Be still available through china. The immitation is kind of proof that this is not a flop.
E
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I think that the technology of electric cars is far beyond a niche any more, and it was the tech I was more interested in than the brands.
Best,
E
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@dlcockrum
So what percentage of hi fi speakers would you say are time aligned? I'm not a Hi Fi industry wizard, but have they occupied a larger market than I know?
Erik
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Eric, first let me say that despite what might appear to be a pattern of antagonistic responses from me to your posts, I really do look forward to your contributions and respect your opinions, whether I fully agree with them or not. :-) Dammit. As hwy61 had already mentioned in this thread; can one dismiss a product like Vandersteens venerable model 2 as niche’ product? I suspect that speakers like Dunlavy, Thiel and Vandersteen ( include Quad 63’s ?) have had sizable high end market shares for a considerable length of time. Hmmm, by overall sales, how many high end speakers do you think sitting in people’s homes are "time aligned?" Vandersteen and Thiel are clearly successful brands, but even if we combine them, have they revolutionized speaker manufacturing? Again, this is not meant to be a judgement of quality. Just overall market acceptance of the design principles. Clearly Vandersteen and Thiel have kept the lights on as well as any boutique makers can. But first order filters, time alignment and minimum baffle designs are the technology which I’m honing in on. As a counter example, AMT drivers were a niche, which has now, post patent, exploded. All sorts of good and poor implementations are upon us. It is well past "niche" status. Best, E |
Teo,
Interesting, but maybe we need a new thread? I'm having trouble following your logic at the end.
Best,
E
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@mr_m Thanks for bringing that up. According to this article, it means both wall and very large cabinet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_enclosure#Sealed_.28or_closed.29_enclosuresI need to make a correction to my discussion with @donvito101 (but just one) based on that article: I was wrong about sealed always being acoustic suspension. Infinite Baffle designs are sealed and not AS. Definitely a flop! Isobarik enclosures are extremely rare, and technically sealed, but not called "sealed." They are called "isobarik," I was not wrong about: - In current usage "sealed" is always synonymous with "acoustic suspension" unless otherwise stated.
- The BBC LS3 models however are far too small to be Infinite Baffle and are clearly AS.
- Acoustic suspension is still one of the most popular speaker cabinet technologies in the world.
The B&W Nautilus concept is infinite baffle, but not sealed. Very much a niche, though lately Focal has copied the idea for their tweeters. More info on the LS3 here: http://www.ls35a.com/Lastly, most 3-way or more speaker systems use AS in the midrange even if the woofer is bass-reflex. There are weird exceptions. Best, E |
DBX records - Never even heard of them! But dbx made a comeback in TV stereo transmission. :)
E
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I have heard Fritz speakers. I think his careful choice of drivers, balance and price point should not be underestimated.
But series crossovers are an absolute niche too. :)
E
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@unsound As for time aligned speakers:
niche (adj.): denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
I would say that they qualify. That is not to disparage their fans or manufacturer's passion. Just that they haven't won everyone over yet. E |
@2psyop
I have actually been thinking a lot about that approach to reproducing musical instruments, and I'm not sure it was all hogwash, exactly. The quality of the drivers, timbre, etc. would keep me from seeking out a Bose 901.... but rear drivers is really interesting.
Snell used them, and Wilson's latest super-beast has one too. I think they are quite interesting, but still an effect as opposed to more musical extraction.
To large degree, open baffle speakers do this too. Again, niche products, but fun and interesting solutions to problems.
Best,
E
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Donvito, they don’t because "acoustic suspension" is completely synonymous with "sealed." That’s the established convention.
I’m not saying new technology is not possible, but that I have never seen a single sealed speaker which did not rely on the same physics and models as an acoustic suspension design,so.... they’re the same. :) When you run a speaker simulation tool (WinISD, Bass Box Pro, etc.) there is no "sealed" option that is not also "acoustic suspension."
Best,
E
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Donvito,
1 - The point is, acoustic suspension, since it’s commercialization by Acoustic Research, is one of the two most common technologies used in home hi-fi speaker systems. Bass Reflex accounting for the rest, and horn and TL speakers a fraction of the total.
2 - Can you point me to any sealed speaker makers who claim to not use acoustic suspension?
We are talking about cabinets and dynamic drivers here, right?
Best,
E
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BR vs. AS is a debate that will never die.
All of my current speakers are BR, but I’m not religious about it.
I can say most definitely that these two technologies are among the most accepted ways to make a loudspeaker for the home, so neither fits the category of a flop.
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@donvito101 -
You are kidding, right? All sealed cabinet, voice coil speakers fall into the category of "acoustic suspension."
Best,
E
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ESL's are kind of in between, they didn't go away (obviously) but they also haven't achieved absolute market dominance. They are radically different from voice coil based speakers, for sure, but I can think of 4 manufacturers.
Obviously have serious fans. :) Including me.
Best,
E
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Which is bizarre in that it is so vitally important an attribute/feature for a coned speaker with multiple drivers for various frequencies. Apparently not. I have to say, I am one who has hear Vandersteen and Thiel and not found this attribute so overwhelming. The marketplace agrees with me. Mind you, a well designed, multi-way speaker IS phase and amplitude aligned. It is not however necessarily time co-incident, which is what Thiel/Vandersteen and a handful of other multi-way designs attempt. If you like it, that’s fine, and if you think it is a must, well, OK! But the market and my ears have not felt this is an overwhelmingly important attribute. If it were truly an overwhelming advantage others would do it too. Best, E |
Vandersteen as a brand is going quite strong, but the idea of time aligned speakers really is a niche.
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DAT and it's 48 kHz/16bit format wasn't much better. Also along these lines were the Sony PCM --> VHS converters.
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