I wish I had direct experience for you, but I do have some relevant experience to share.
I used to own their R2000 integrated amp, now upgraded to the PA3100 HV integrated, and currently own their DAC200. So, I have experience with the brand quality and sound.
I was actually quite pleased with the R2000 but experienced a bit of dynamic compression at higher volumes (think Mahler crescendos). It was a modestly powered amp so that’s not a surprise. I compared the sound to SimAudio 700 series integrated and the detail retrieval was about the same, but the T+A a touch warmer, and significantly smoother. The PA3100 HV has a similar sound, but more of everything and no dynamic limitations that I’ll ever reach.
The DAC 200 is good on PCM - competitive with the marketplace of $7k DACs on PCM, but I wouldn’t necessarily say better than other choices. However, on native DSD - it’s exceptional. I almost didn’t purchase the DAC when auditioning it at home because I was feeding it PCM. But, I have an outboard processor (does the same thing as HQ Player) and when I sent it DSD 512, I was shocked at how good it was. So, ended up being an easy purchase.
I don’t know what’s in this new integrated, but you’ll get more power than I had in the R2000 - and that was its only limitation. And, if the DAC is anywhere close to the DAC200, you should be quite pleased with it.
Hope this helps.
Best,
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At that price level I’d never buy a combo unit and be locked into a DAC/streamer unless I had F U $$$ and it was for a second system or vacation home where it’s not as big of a concern. Is having a separate DAC and streamer really that big of a deal? I confess I don’t get it short of an extreme space limitation sitch, but to each his own and best of luck.
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@mgrif104
Thanks for the excellent feedback. Re: dynamics, what speakers were you using, and in what size room?
My own requirements are modest: low-to-moderate listening levels, an outboard active sub, and a 14x17 room with Harbeth speakers 10' from my listening position. Despite their 86dB sensitivity, the Harbeths are spec'd at requiring a minimum of 25wpc, but Alan Shaw himself has demonstrated that the speakers reach a whole new level when driven by an amp that has 2-300wpc in reserve for peaks. The R 2500 R specs at around 200wpc into 6 ohms (higher than the R 2000), and T+A gear usually outperforms its power ratings. So all that is encouraging.
One reason for the PCM/DSD differences you heard from the DAC200 could be that the T+A DACs have two distinct decoding paths, one for PCM and one for DSD. The R 2500 R DAC boasts a nearly identical architecture and most of the parts found in the DAC200. And I'm told that this 2024 update actually incorporates improvements over the older DAC200. The biggest difference I see on paper is that the R 2500 DAC processes only half the number of DAC streams, limiting it to 512DSD instead of 1024. Which I don't think either of us see as a dealbreaker.
The few people I’ve spoken to who have heard both DACs – a handful of dealers and mfr reps -- believe that the DAC200 & R 2500 R DAC have similar sonic signatures -- or that the newer, embedded DAC has a slight edge.
I realize that you have experience with the HV line, which is a step above the R series, the R2000, which is a lower-end, older version of the R2500, and the DAC200, which is both older and higher-end. Given that I have a good feel for the sound of the R 2500 R relative to other T+A offerings, your comments thus give me an excellent frame of reference. And that gets me closer than ever to dropping $19K without a demo.
Thank you again!
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@soix
I don’t want to give you a hard time -- I think we’ve had meaningful & useful discussions on this forum & I respect your opinion -- but you just triggered a pet peeve mine.
A conclusory opinion that separates always make more sense than integrated modules is what I call a "radio talkshow" argument -- something that sounds logical for 30 seconds, but reveals itself as misleading if you have the time to think about it for 31 (a luxury that a good talkshow entertainer never allows).
Here’s an example. Consider these two scenarios:
i) You buy an integrated that lacks DAC/streaming capability and tack on separate components. When those separates become obsolete, you replace them with new models. By then the separates (we’re talking DAC & streamer, you know) probably have little resale value.
ii) You buy an integrated with embedded DAC & streamer. When they become obsolete, you replace them by either updatingn the embedded modules, or by (ahem!) buying the same separates mentioned in i).
Given that the integrated I’m considering has a DAC & streamer that likely produce sonics in a class with pricey separates sold by the same company, I see no SQ downside to choosing integrated. In either use case, you wind up with similar sound quality for a similar length of time, with similar options for an upgrade to newer separates down the road.
So are the two alternatives equivalent, at least in my case? Well, despite all that, I think not.
A well-designed integrated has advantages:
- The integrated DAC & streamer are precisely synced to the same clock. To achieve the same degree of precision, the separates would need an external clock -- in this class of component, that could mean another four- or five-figure expenditure – or be connected via potentially noisy USB. I’m sure you’d agree that, at this level, high-resolution synchronization is critical.
- The embedded DAC & streamer are hardwired together, through I2S or whatever. The separates must be cabled together, introducing all the issues that cables present, as well as significant expense. Ditto re: the need for extra power cables and AC-conditioner outlets.
- The DAC, streamer, and analog sections of a good-quality integrated are tailored to complement each other. If you mix & match separates, well, things get more complicated, especially if you start looking at third-party products. In system design, “integrated” is a compliment.
- The R 2500 R is firmware upgradable. Being based on a hardware DAC chip, updating the 2500 DAC with firmware can only go so far. But other vendors, like Bricasti, McIntosh, & CH Precision, offer complete integrated-DAC replacements, either via no-fee FPGA reprograming (check out the interesting article about CH Precision’s free firmware-based DAC replacement in this month’s TAS) or a board swap. These can be relatively easy & cost-effective upgrade paths that maintain al the space, cost, and interoperability benefits of the integrated form factor.
- And although you pooh-pooh space issues, many of us certainly do have a problem adding more boxes than necessary. My rack is almost full, my Niagara power-conditioner has few open outlets, and there’s no good spot in my room for another rack. Having to add one relatively small & light integrated instead of two, three, or four boxes (and cables!), or even upgrade my racking, is a BIG selling point for me.
- Last but far from least, having a single source of support can be a godsend. If a complex, envelope-pushing DAC/streamer/clock/analog-amplifier combo is not performing as expected, would you rather deal with a rep intimately familiar with all the modules and with the way they interact, or with multiple manufacturers that each think the problem lies with its competitors? In my complicated home-theater setup, this is even more of an issue.
Now, sure, this calculus may not work as well when some integrated modules are of much lower quality than others. But that’s not the case with the gear I’ve been considering, integrateds from the likes of T+A, Ayre, & Hegel (at least since the H600).
So look, if the R 2500 R includes an outstanding, potentially upgradable DAC/streamer that offers performance comparable to that of the company’s highly praised separates, updated for 2024, and at a fraction of the price, and if the integrated form factor so effectively mitigates inter-module interface issues, interconnect & power-cord requirements, support issues, and space constraints, why would I ever prefer separates?
I realize YMMV, but I ask you to at least consider these points. The question of separates v. integration must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and only after comparing product-specific details. But I don’t think one can make a sweeping, across-the-board statement one way or the other.
My 2c.
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I know them well best quality value vs Anybody
Dollar for Dollar Aavic their middle i280
Beat any integrated amps on many levels
For around $10k Blink Hifi 300,600wpc
With their famous multiple Tesla coil s to dramatically lower
The noise floor plus many other technologies
ANSUZ IS THEIR SISTER CABLE POWERCORD CO.
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@audioman58
I wasn't aware that Aavik made an integrated amplifier. It's a strange company, though, with limited presence in the United States, and finding information about its products isn't easy. In fact, when I went to its Web site, I was told that it had 19 products on the market, but had no information -- not even model names -- for 16 of those 19.
Blink had more information, but not much. I learned there that all three Aavik integrateds have a single pre-amp out.
Aavik's spin on Class D has a reputation for delivering exquisite sound and are very light. But even if they offer all the connectivity I need -- which looks doubtful -- I wouldn't want to spend $10-30,000 on a product that has so little presence in this country. If I can't even find out whether the product has balanced inputs, how could I expect robust warranty service, much less online support if I run into problems integrating the unit into a multi-channel audio+video system?
But thanks for the suggestion. It was interesting to learn a little about this innovative Danish company.
D
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Look under Danish Audio Group
they are gaining steam pretty quickly, I am currently saving for the T+A 200 dac
IMO and many others best dac under $15k and retail around $7k
Danish Audio Group without question will surpass T+A dealers in the next year or so. Just look up the product group starting with Borrensen Loudspeakers.
their X series is doing very well and great values . The AAvic I250 I highly recommend you can purchase for under $10 k and I have found no integrated as powerful or musical to better it even at $15k and I have directly compared many at Audio get togethers .this is without question on my short list as well as Ansuz
their Ethernet switch,and power switch dramatically improve the sound .
my brother has the Outstanding DCS Rossini Apex ,and the Ansuz D Ethernet switch made a easy to hear upgrade in fidelity ,same holds true with their line conditioner. Thier Multiple Active,passive Tesla coils and other technologies greatly lowers noise, even more so then all major companies ,just compare for yourself .
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Type AAvic I280 integrated amp best integrated under $15k ,for under $10k with discount, Ansuz power cords too excellent ,although a bit pricy imo.
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I’ve heard similar opinions about the the T+A D200 DAC, which is one reason why I’m considering the T+A integrated, which includes a nearly identical DAC module.
The dealer comparison, however, seems bogus, IMO. T+A is currently ramping up its domestic dealers quite aggresesively, so comparing today’s T+A dealership list with DAG’s possible list one year from now is apples-and-oranges.
But the dealbreaker for me is the near-complete lack of online information about the company’s product line & support policies, and the bizarrely unhelpful Aavik Web site. I realize that I’m on the outside looking in, but these are all red flags.
To reiterate from other threads, I’m looking for an integrated that will simultaneously support loudspeakers, a separate subwoofer, and headphones (or an external HP amp), and offer an HT bypass function, at a weight as far below 40 lbs as possible. I’d consider it icing if the amp also included an embedded DAC that is at least of the quality of Ayre or T+A DACs in the $5-10K range. Because I have no opportunity to demo electronics first-hand, I’m trying to stay away from Class D amplification (which is what I’m upgrading from) although I do understand that there are a small # of very fine-sounding Class D designs out there.
The T+A R 2500 R and the Ayre EX-8 2.0 are the only products I’ve found, after several months of intensive search, that satisfy these criteria. Not having any idea of the functionality or connectivity of the Aavik integrateds, or of the company’s ability & willingness to provide pre-sales / post-sales support, this is not an option I can consider.
You yourself speak highly of the T+A DAC, which reportedly sounds almost exactly like the R 2500 R’s DAC. So I’m not sure what you mean when you say that there’s nothing better than the Aavik in this price range. For $19K, the T+A delivers a highly praised analog section, almost-unparalleled connectivity, a DAC/streamer good enough to make me forget about separates, about 200wpc into 6 ohms, a 31lb weight, tons of networking options, two-zone output, and even a CD transport and both Internet & FM/DAB tuners. I’m not interested in some of those features, but if it really does deliver SQ commensurate with T+A’s reputation, this integrated seems, at least on paper, pretty hard to beat.
Nonetheless, I’m willing to be convinced otherwise.
Look, I’m not trying to argue & I appreciate you taking the time to turn me on to this relatively unknown company, based on your first-hand experience. Everything I've read about Aavik products over the last day suggest that they sound great, regardless of their Class D origins. But unless you can direct me to even the most basic information about this product and about Aavik’s domestic support, I’ll have to pass.
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@cundare2
My apologies for the tardy response. You asked what speakers I was driving with my original R2000. Those were KEF Reference 3s. I now have Sonus Faber Serafinos. The KEFs are good speakers and benefited from a fair amount of power. My room is about the same size as yours and at my normal listening level- I never wanted for more. But every now and then - when my wife wasn’t home, I played symphonic music at scale. It was only then I experienced this limitation. But the R2500 has significantly more power than the R2000 so perhaps not an issue for you.
FWIW - the R2000 never struggled with the impedance or difficult loads from the KEFs. I had two previous separate power amps in system at some point - a Parasound Halo and NAD Masters series. Both had more significantly more watts than the R2000, but didn’t sound nearly as good but it’s also fair to note there were other preamps involved too. Regardless, I offer what I experienced and hope it helps.
I’m intrigued by the new unit. I’ve got another building project about to start and this might be a good choice as I really do like the brand and engineering behind it. I was thinking the DAC200 with accompanying multiplayer and class D monos or stereo amp, but the R2500 might be just the ticket. Also under consideration would be the new North line by Sim audio. My local dealer who carries that line raves about it - but I haven’t heard it yet. Not quite all encompassing as the T+A unit, but still looks interesting.
The Hegel mentioned above has a strong following and I understand it’s quite good. But, I’ve never heard or put my hands on a unit so I can’t be of any help to you there. And, because it isn’t carried by any of my locals shops, isn’t on my particular list.
I look forward to hearing what you decide and about your experiences.
Best,
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Ayre: Small American company run by passionate people, great engineering and build quality, great support (you can get a human on the phone), great sonics and reliability. European and Asian companies you will be dealing with a distributor, most likely, for any after sale support and questions, good luck with that. If you have a great dealer this can be mitigated somewhat.
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@joc3021
Yes, I’m quite familiar with Ayre (the company) and hold its products in the highest regard.
As for T+A, after digging deep into the company from both product & business perspectives, I’m discovering that it’s a large, stable, outfit, with a robust global distributorship network; and is one of the leading sellers of high-end DACs in Europe. I bet you could squeeze all of Ayre into the conference rooms at T+A’s German headquarters.
One thing that’s bolstered my opinion of T+A is the fact that in the last few years, since hiring a prominent American executive to expand its presence in North America, it’s expanded from a single retail dealership to two dozen & counting.
Its products have also begun to garner an increasing # of jaw-dropping reviews, even from the likes of TAS & Stereophile, routinely scoring spots in Class A / Recommended Components lists. As good as the Ayre integrated is -- and I consider it to be outstanding -- I’m gathering that T+A’s R 2500 R (OK, at almost twice the price) is in a whole different class.
I’m still looking for first-hand experiences with T+A support since the establishment of its "T+A North America" distributorship & "immediate assistance" service organization in Canada.
So far, it looks like the company goes to great lengths to support customers. But even if this wasn’t the case, IMHO, it’s unfair to lump all "European and Asian" companies in the "good luck with that" category. E.g., on Mikey Fremer’s personal recommendation, I bought a phono stage from a tiny Spanish outfit that has for years provided outstanding support.
And remember that "European and Asian companies" is a very long list that includes the likes of ELAC, Tannoy, Philips, Ortofon, Dynaudio, MBL, EAT, Hegel, Devialet, Chord, Quad, Kuzma, Focal, Cabasse, and many more -- not to mention the huge array of Japanese audiophile manufacturers.
My point isn’t that all of these companies have a perfect track record for support. What I’m saying is that it makes you’ve gotta evaluate each one on a case-by-case basis.
In my case, I’m finding that T+A is highly regarded worldwide, Aavik is an unknown quantity in North America, and Ayre’s once-terrific support may today be in a state of flux (and not in a good way).
I’m still digging into T+A and, again, would value any first-hand anecdotes. But so far, I don’t see the type of red flags you’re warning me about.
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T+A , Ayre and Aesthetix are always on my list. ;-) Have fun. Enjoy the journey.
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Late-breaking news: A colleague has suggested that I take a look at AVM's OVATION A 6.2 Master Edition integrated. It's analog only and comes in at a borderline 42 pounds, but wow, it sure looks like a great candidate in other ways.
I need to investigate further.
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@mgrif104
Did you have any experience with T+A support?
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@cundare2
no experience to share as I never needed it.
Best,
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cundare2: good points, can't disagree. My bias and preference is to support small, committed companies (preferably American) where you can have direct contact with the principals and they know who you are and will be responsive. The future is always uncertain, especially for the "little guys." I have owned a lot of gear from all over the world. My experience is the bigger the company (and the further away they are) the further away from their users they are (by necessity) and they rely on third parties to provide the "touch" with their customers. In my experience (with a few exceptions) this has generally been inefficient. unpleasant and wholly unsatisfactory, especially given the cost of the gear in question, and I'm not a difficult or especially picky customer. For me, high end audio works better with smaller scale, local-as-possible touch points. The big guys will always have the advantage of more resources and all that brings, but owning and enjoying high performance (and expensive) audio gear entails more than that, at least for me.
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@joc3021
>My bias and preference is to support small, committed companies (preferably American) where you can have direct contact with the principals and they know who you are and will be responsive.
Boy, that certainly describes Ayre. I know the company has had its challenges since Charlie Hansen's passing, but I'm really rooting for them.
I once had a full hour on the phone with Ariel himself. Maybe it was just his lunch hour, but you can count on one hand the # of principles who care that much about their customers to have that kind of interaction. In my life, the list might be limited to George Merrill, Wally Liederman, Roy Hall, and, uh... Jeez, over the course of over 50 years, that's about it.
One reason I love this hobby!
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Sidelight: Over the last week, I spoke with two acquaintances who are both long-time highly placed insiders in the audiophile industry whose ears and industry knowledge I've trusted implicitly for years.
These were short conversations, but both of them made an uncharacteristically unqualified statement along the lines of about T+A: "fantastic equipment, fantastic company, don't hesitate to purchase any model that fits your specs".
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Rooting for doesn’t keep the lights on. I don’t disagree w your list. I miss Charlie. I have only been doing this since 1977, but the list of personal touch relationships / care and support is very long… I do wish you the best in music and your quest ;-)
Jim
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I listened to this unit at the Florida show couple months ago and it was very impressive. the r2500r unit was powering the T+A 420 speakers, streaming and a VPI TT with that DS optical cartridge and dedicated phono pre. Open and airy, powerful presence. Funny enough the one LP track that had everyone in the room speechless was Mary Robbins singing Born to Loose.
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@doyle3433
Thanks, good feedback. But to put things into perspective, could you (and I mean in very general terms) compare teh overall sound quality to any other similarly priced configurations?
Really, I'm getting more & more sold on this model.
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At the show probably the closest and similar priced unit would be Aurender AP20 streaming some good music. It was also a simple set up with just the AP20 and a pair of Wilson Sabrina's. These two rooms were perhaps the easiest listening rooms I encountered. Plus they appealed to me in their uncluttered appearence.
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@doyle3433
Really? I didn't know that Aurender made an integrated.
==========
Looking at the specs, this does look like a great product, despite potentially being one of those "great sounding Class D amps" I referred to earlier.
I do need an unbalanced subwoofer out, but there are ways around that when a component has both powered speaker outputs and a line-level XLR out. The dealbreaker for me, though, is the weight,. Because of a back injury, even a 40-pound box would be out of my league. And at $3-4K less expensive, with even more functionality and apparently similar sound, the T+A is still looking like the best fit.
Thanks for the heads-up, though. The AP20 looks pretty terrific.
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@doyle3433 Being both a T+A and Aurender dealer, I would love to hear your early thoughts on the differences in the sonics of these two rooms. I was the first dealer to purchase the AP20 in the USA and recently wrote a really lengthy evaluation of it in another thread on this forum given my enthusiasm for its performance. I did hear the AP20 last year at AXPONA when it was revealed, also with the Sabrinas. I also own a plethora of T+A electronics (sadly not the R 2500 R) and the Solitaire S 530 speakers.
My assumptions with the AP20/Wilson sound compared to the T+A amp/Solitaire speaker sound is that the AP20/Wilson would come off as more punchy and articulate, and the T+A stack to be more graceful and refined. Would that mirror your findings? If it were up to me, I would choose a different speaker than the Sabrinas to show off the AP20, perhaps Joseph Audio or Vivid. Having also owned Wilsons in the past, I felt the AP20/Wilson combo was a bit tippy when I heard it at AXPONA last year. I mean, really great sound for the total price, but Wilson plus Shunyata plus AP20 got just a bit more analytical than I prefer.
This is why shows are so tough for evaluation for one component, as it all becomes part of an overall system where one never knows what is contributing to what.
I apologize if this is hijacking the topic of this thread, but I would value from your insight!
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I have the SDV 3100 HV, which I realize is up the product hierarchy from what you are looking at. That said, it is exceptional and I highly recommend you pursue the R 2500 as an option. Regarding the company, I had a bit of a problem getting DSD to play (due to my configuration, not the device) and the T+A rep stayed with it until fully resolved.
I don't know where you are located, but Pearl Audio in Portland carries the brand. I've worked with great success with Connor at the store.
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@lldd (and bliss)
Thanks for the contributions to this thread -- exactly what I'm looking for.
Unfortunately, I'm in a state that has no audiophile dealerships, so I'm relying on dealers like Bliss (and Audiogon members, of course!) to ensure that I make an educated decision.
Really, at this point, after -- it's gotta be 4 months -- of excruciatingly detailed due diligence, it looks like the R 2500 R is gonna be hard to beat.
But I'd also be interested in hearing a SQ comparision between the T+A & the Aurender.
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@cundare2 Having personal experience with both brands, as well as having the AP20 on the floor, all I can say is that T+A will have slightly better harmonics and soul. The AP20 is an exceptional unit nonetheless and satisfies those looking for a purely linear sound. I’m curious as to what doyle3433 has to say not because of comparing one amp to another, but due to the synergies of the equipment they are paired with.
With the AP20 being as linear as it is, with Shunyata cabling that I find to be a bit forward in presentation, with the SabrinaX which is very punchy in the lows and highs, the combination I heard last year could have used a little more grace and soul in the mix. Just a little bit. But I know that pairing the AP20 with speakers like the T+A Solitaire S 530 or the Vivid G3S2 and using more refined cables, I could be happy with the AP20 if I somehow had to consolidate my reference system.
The R 2500 R on the other hand, if following the characteristics of the R series, will be a bit more refined in presentation. I could see that being paired with neutral speakers like your Harbeth or my Vivids or even more treble happy speakers like the SabrinaX or Perlisten speakers and have great synergy. The Solitaire S 420 or 430 they are pairing it with has a bit more meat on the bones in terms of presentation, which together may give it an ultra refined sound in the room.
The AP20 is nearly 60lbs as well, and I’m aware you’re limiting yourself to 35-40lbs.
In short, both exceptional pieces, and synergy with speakers, power line, and cabling are key.
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Thanks again, @blisshifi and @mgrif104
I think my long search for the right integrated (and right dealership) is almost over. Everything I learn about T+A suggests that this German outfit is well on its way to carving out a prestigious reputation in the U.S., and that it's already well on its way to putting together a pretty good support & service resource in North America.
Unlike most of the integrateds I've been digging into, the more I find out about the R 2500 R, the more impressed I am.
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@cundare2
If you ultimately decide upon purchasing the T+A unit, I suggest you connect with Juan @blisshifi. I purchased my DAC200 from him and had a particularly good experience. He’s not pushy, and is pretty thoughtful about helping a customer get to the right place. I can comfortably recommended him as a dealer.
Best,
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I to have nothing but good things to say about Jaun@blisshifi. I was looking for a better USB cable and he actually sent me to the company, because they had a sale on. He didn’t make a dime of of it.
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@blisshifi I would tend to agree with you comparing the two. I felt the AP20 and Wilson combo to be a bit of a truth teller. Very clear dynamic and detailed (some heat from the highs and lows as you describe), a little dry for my taste. The T+A sounded warm and cozy, yet open and expansive. I felt more of that in your soul feel. Of course the sources were different.. streaming for the Aurender and analog for the T+A, so there's that. I'm not a streamer at home. (MOFI Ultra with a Hanna ML, and Line Magnetic disc player into Cary SLI80HS into Volti Razz). I think if I had the cash and were looking I'd be leaning toward the T+A
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@mgrif104 @cundare2 Thank you both for your kind comments and advocacy. It’s greatly appreciated. :)
@doyle3433 Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the two rooms. I’m glad your findings matched my experiences and assumptions. With the Aurender room, I would have definitely picked a different cable loom and speakers to make the end result more soulful. I’ve not had an issue accomplishing that with the AP20. I would love to hear that unit with something like a Joseph Audio Pearl 2 Graphene. I’m sure that would be an incredible match.
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