T+A's new R 2500 R integrated amp

@mgrif104

Thanks for the excellent feedback.  Re: dynamics, what speakers were you using, and in what size room?

My own requirements are modest: low-to-moderate listening levels, an outboard active sub, and a 14x17 room with Harbeth speakers 10' from my listening position.  Despite their 86dB sensitivity, the Harbeths are spec'd at requiring a minimum of 25wpc, but Alan Shaw himself has demonstrated that the speakers reach a whole new level when driven by an amp that has 2-300wpc in reserve for peaks.  The R 2500 R specs at around 200wpc into 6 ohms (higher than the R 2000), and T+A gear usually outperforms its power ratings.  So all that is encouraging.

One reason for the PCM/DSD differences you heard from the DAC200 could be that the T+A DACs have two distinct decoding paths, one for PCM and one for DSD.  The R 2500 R DAC boasts a nearly identical architecture and most of the parts found in the DAC200.  And I'm told that this 2024 update actually incorporates improvements over the older DAC200.  The biggest difference I see on paper is that the R 2500 DAC processes only half the number of DAC streams, limiting it to 512DSD instead of 1024.  Which I don't think either of us see as a dealbreaker.

The few people I’ve spoken to who have heard both  DACs – a handful of dealers and mfr reps -- believe that the DAC200 & R 2500 R DAC have similar sonic signatures -- or that the newer, embedded DAC has a slight edge.

I realize that you have experience with the HV line, which is a step above the R series, the R2000, which is a lower-end, older version of the R2500, and the DAC200, which is both older and higher-end.   Given that I have a good feel for the sound of the R 2500 R relative to other T+A offerings, your comments thus give me an excellent frame of reference.  And that gets me closer than ever to dropping $19K without a demo.

Thank you again!

@soix

I don’t want to give you a hard time -- I think we’ve had meaningful & useful discussions on this forum & I respect your opinion -- but you just triggered a pet peeve mine.

A conclusory opinion that separates always make more sense than integrated modules is what I call a "radio talkshow" argument -- something that sounds logical for 30 seconds, but reveals itself as misleading if you have the time to think about it for 31 (a luxury that a good talkshow entertainer never allows).

Here’s an example. Consider these two scenarios:

i) You buy an integrated that lacks DAC/streaming capability and tack on separate components. When those separates become obsolete, you replace them with new models. By then the separates (we’re talking DAC & streamer, you know) probably have little resale value.

ii) You buy an integrated with embedded DAC & streamer. When they become obsolete, you replace them by either updatingn the embedded modules, or by (ahem!) buying the same separates mentioned in i).

Given that the integrated I’m considering has a DAC & streamer that likely produce sonics in a class with pricey separates sold by the same company, I see no SQ downside to choosing integrated. In either use case, you wind up with similar sound quality for a similar length of time, with similar options for an upgrade to newer separates down the road.

So are the two alternatives equivalent, at least in my case? Well, despite all that, I think not.

A well-designed integrated has advantages:

- The integrated DAC & streamer are precisely synced to the same clock. To achieve the same degree of precision, the separates would need an external clock -- in this class of component, that could mean another four- or five-figure expenditure – or be connected via potentially noisy USB. I’m sure you’d agree that, at this level, high-resolution synchronization is critical.

- The embedded DAC & streamer are hardwired together, through I2S or whatever. The separates must be cabled together, introducing all the issues that cables present, as well as significant expense. Ditto re: the need for extra power cables and AC-conditioner outlets.

- The DAC, streamer, and analog sections of a good-quality integrated are tailored to complement each other. If you mix & match separates, well, things get more complicated, especially if you start looking at third-party products. In system design, “integrated” is a compliment.

- The R 2500 R is firmware upgradable. Being based on a hardware DAC chip, updating the 2500 DAC with firmware can only go so far. But other vendors, like Bricasti, McIntosh, & CH Precision, offer complete integrated-DAC replacements, either via no-fee FPGA reprograming (check out the interesting article about CH Precision’s free firmware-based DAC replacement in this month’s TAS) or a board swap. These can be relatively easy & cost-effective upgrade paths that maintain al the space, cost, and interoperability benefits of the integrated form factor.

- And although you pooh-pooh space issues, many of us certainly do have a problem adding more boxes than necessary. My rack is almost full, my Niagara power-conditioner has few open outlets, and there’s no good spot in my room for another rack. Having to add one relatively small & light integrated instead of two, three, or four boxes (and cables!), or even upgrade my racking, is a BIG selling point for me.

- Last but far from least, having a single source of support can be a godsend. If a complex, envelope-pushing DAC/streamer/clock/analog-amplifier combo is not performing as expected, would you rather deal with a rep intimately familiar with all the modules and with the way they interact, or with multiple manufacturers that each think the problem lies with its competitors? In my complicated home-theater setup, this is even more of an issue.

Now, sure, this calculus may not work as well when some integrated modules are of much lower quality than others. But that’s not the case with the gear I’ve been considering, integrateds from the likes of T+A, Ayre, & Hegel (at least since the H600).

So look, if the R 2500 R includes an outstanding, potentially upgradable DAC/streamer that offers performance comparable to that of the company’s highly praised separates, updated for 2024, and at a fraction of the price, and if the integrated form factor so effectively mitigates inter-module interface issues, interconnect & power-cord requirements, support issues, and space constraints, why would I ever prefer separates?

I realize YMMV, but I ask you to at least consider these points. The question of separates v. integration must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and only after comparing product-specific details. But I don’t think one can make a sweeping, across-the-board statement one way or the other.

My 2c.

Late-breaking news:  A colleague has suggested that I take a look at AVM's OVATION A 6.2 Master Edition integrated.  It's analog only and comes in at a borderline 42 pounds, but wow, it sure looks like a great candidate in other ways.

I need to investigate further.

@audioman58 

I wasn't aware that Aavik made an integrated amplifier.  It's a strange company, though, with limited presence in the United States, and finding information about its products isn't easy.  In fact, when I went to its Web site, I was told that it had 19 products on the market, but had no information -- not even model names -- for 16 of those 19. 

Blink had more information, but not much.  I learned there that all three Aavik integrateds have a single pre-amp out.

Aavik's spin on Class D has a reputation for delivering exquisite sound and are very light.  But even if they offer all the connectivity I need -- which looks doubtful -- I wouldn't want to spend $10-30,000 on a product that has so little presence in this country.  If I can't even find out whether the product has balanced inputs, how could I expect robust warranty service, much less online support if I run into problems integrating the unit into a multi-channel audio+video system?

But thanks for the suggestion.  It was interesting to learn a little about this innovative Danish company.

D

I’ve heard similar opinions about the the T+A D200 DAC, which is one reason why I’m considering the T+A integrated, which includes a nearly identical DAC module.

The dealer comparison, however, seems bogus, IMO. T+A is currently ramping up its domestic dealers quite aggresesively, so comparing today’s T+A dealership list with DAG’s possible list one year from now is apples-and-oranges.

But the dealbreaker for me is the near-complete lack of online information about the company’s product line & support policies, and the bizarrely unhelpful Aavik Web site. I realize that I’m on the outside looking in, but these are all red flags.

To reiterate from other threads, I’m looking for an integrated that will simultaneously support loudspeakers, a separate subwoofer, and headphones (or an external HP amp), and offer an HT bypass function, at a weight as far below 40 lbs as possible. I’d consider it icing if the amp also included an embedded DAC that is at least of the quality of Ayre or T+A DACs in the $5-10K range. Because I have no opportunity to demo electronics first-hand, I’m trying to stay away from Class D amplification (which is what I’m upgrading from) although I do understand that there are a small # of very fine-sounding Class D designs out there.

The T+A R 2500 R and the Ayre EX-8 2.0 are the only products I’ve found, after several months of intensive search, that satisfy these criteria. Not having any idea of the functionality or connectivity of the Aavik integrateds, or of the company’s ability & willingness to provide pre-sales / post-sales support, this is not an option I can consider.

You yourself speak highly of the T+A DAC, which reportedly sounds almost exactly like the R 2500 R’s DAC. So I’m not sure what you mean when you say that there’s nothing better than the Aavik in this price range. For $19K, the T+A delivers a highly praised analog section, almost-unparalleled connectivity, a DAC/streamer good enough to make me forget about separates, about 200wpc into 6 ohms, a 31lb weight, tons of networking options, two-zone output, and even a CD transport and both Internet & FM/DAB tuners. I’m not interested in some of those features, but if it really does deliver SQ commensurate with T+A’s reputation, this integrated seems, at least on paper, pretty hard to beat.

Nonetheless, I’m willing to be convinced otherwise.

Look, I’m not trying to argue & I appreciate you taking the time to turn me on to this relatively unknown company, based on your first-hand experience. Everything I've read about Aavik products over the last day suggest that they sound great, regardless of their Class D origins.  But unless you can direct me to even the most basic information about this product and about Aavik’s domestic support, I’ll have to pass.

@joc3021

Yes, I’m quite familiar with Ayre (the company) and hold its products in the highest regard.

As for T+A, after digging deep into the company from both product & business perspectives, I’m discovering that it’s a large, stable, outfit, with a robust global distributorship network; and is one of the leading sellers of high-end DACs in Europe. I bet you could squeeze all of Ayre into the conference rooms at T+A’s German headquarters.

One thing that’s bolstered my opinion of T+A is the fact that in the last few years, since hiring a prominent American executive to expand its presence in North America, it’s expanded from a single retail dealership to two dozen & counting.

Its products have also begun to garner an increasing # of jaw-dropping reviews, even from the likes of TAS & Stereophile, routinely scoring spots in Class A / Recommended Components lists. As good as the Ayre integrated is -- and I consider it to be outstanding -- I’m gathering that T+A’s R 2500 R (OK, at almost twice the price) is in a whole different class.

I’m still looking for first-hand experiences with T+A support since the establishment of its "T+A North America" distributorship & "immediate assistance" service organization in Canada.

So far, it looks like the company goes to great lengths to support customers. But even if this wasn’t the case, IMHO, it’s unfair to lump all "European and Asian" companies in the "good luck with that" category. E.g., on Mikey Fremer’s personal recommendation, I bought a phono stage from a tiny Spanish outfit that has for years provided outstanding support.

And remember that "European and Asian companies" is a very long list that includes the likes of ELAC, Tannoy, Philips, Ortofon, Dynaudio, MBL, EAT, Hegel, Devialet, Chord, Quad, Kuzma, Focal, Cabasse, and many more -- not to mention the huge array of Japanese audiophile manufacturers.

My point isn’t that all of these companies have a perfect track record for support. What I’m saying is that it makes you’ve gotta evaluate each one on a case-by-case basis.

In my case, I’m finding that T+A is highly regarded worldwide, Aavik is an unknown quantity in North America, and Ayre’s once-terrific support may today be in a state of flux (and not in a good way).

I’m still digging into T+A and, again, would value any first-hand anecdotes. But so far, I don’t see the type of red flags you’re warning me about.

@mgrif104

Did you have any experience with T+A support?

@joc3021

>My bias and preference is to support small, committed companies (preferably American) where you can have direct contact with the principals and they know who you are and will be responsive. 

Boy, that certainly describes Ayre.  I know the company has had its challenges since Charlie Hansen's passing, but I'm really rooting for them.

I once had a full hour on the phone with Ariel himself.  Maybe it was just his lunch hour, but you can count on one hand the # of principles who care that much about their customers to have that kind of interaction.  In my life, the list might be limited to George Merrill, Wally Liederman, Roy Hall, and, uh... Jeez, over the course of over 50 years, that's about it.

One reason I love this hobby!

Sidelight: Over the last week, I spoke with two acquaintances who are both long-time highly placed insiders in the audiophile industry whose ears and industry knowledge I've trusted implicitly for years. 

These were short conversations, but both of them made an uncharacteristically unqualified statement along the lines of about T+A: "fantastic equipment, fantastic company, don't hesitate to purchase any model that fits your specs".

@tomic601 

+1

@doyle3433

Thanks, good feedback.  But to put things into perspective, could you (and I mean in very general terms) compare teh overall sound quality to any other similarly priced configurations?

Really, I'm getting more & more sold on this model.

@doyle3433

Really?  I didn't know that Aurender made an integrated.

==========

Looking at the specs, this does look like a great product, despite potentially being one of those "great sounding Class D amps" I referred to earlier.

I do need an unbalanced subwoofer out, but there are ways around that when a component has both powered speaker outputs and a line-level XLR out.  The dealbreaker for me, though, is the weight,.  Because of a back injury, even a 40-pound box would be out of my league.  And at $3-4K less expensive, with even more functionality and apparently similar sound, the T+A is still looking like the best fit.

Thanks for the heads-up, though.  The AP20 looks pretty terrific.

@lldd (and bliss)

Thanks for the contributions to this thread -- exactly what I'm looking for.

Unfortunately, I'm in a state that has no audiophile dealerships, so I'm relying on dealers like Bliss (and Audiogon members, of course!) to ensure that I make an educated decision.

Really, at this point, after -- it's gotta be 4 months -- of excruciatingly detailed due diligence, it looks like the R 2500 R is gonna be hard to beat.

But I'd also be interested in hearing a SQ comparision between the T+A & the Aurender.

Thanks again, @blisshifi and @mgrif104

I think my long search for the right integrated (and right dealership) is almost over.  Everything I learn about T+A suggests that this German outfit is well on its way to carving out a prestigious reputation in the U.S., and that it's already well on its way to putting together a pretty good support & service resource in North America.

Unlike most of the integrateds I've been digging into, the more I find out about the R 2500 R, the more impressed I am.

***FINAL RESOLUTION***

Well, my R 2500 R arrived a few days ago and is burning in.

My initial reaction is very positive, even using lower-grade cables until my new, longer cables arrive. The sonics are everything I was promised, and they're a great match for my Harbeths with no other components in the signal path.

When I use the R 2500 R to drive just the the FL & FR speakers in a 5.1 home theater, the increase in realism is jaw-dropping. Last night, I was almost knocked out of my seat when I sure that I heard a door slam in an adjacent room.

But the best thing about this incredibly well-designed box is its functionality. (I never thought I’d say something like that.) In addition to outstanding amp & preamp sections, it includes a 2023-designed dual PCM/DSD T+A DAC (similar to its $8000 model, I’m told), an integrated streamer with a very good Android interface, a TON of connectivity (including HDMI in & out), and even Internet radio / FM / DAB & a CD transport. And a lot more.

I’m finding the rest of my components to be functionally, not only sonically, limited in comparison. For example, my $2000 Marantz receiver can’t output digital and analog signals at the same time (which would let me, e.g., send a digital signal to the T+A and analog to my rear & center amps when watching something like 5.1 Netflix).  The T+A doesn't seem to have such limitations.

I know that some people have negative knee-jerk reactions to integrated form factors (and I've posted at length about why those reactions sometimes don't make sense), but I spent months searching for an integrated that did not have the most commonly cited downsides.  When the smoke cleared, only two or three made the cut. This new T+A model was clearly the best choice, as perfect a fit with my complicated topology as I could expect to find: beautifully conceived, designed, and built.

One last thing: A TENK YOU VEDDY MUCH shout-out to Juan from Bliss HiFi (he’s actually participated in this thread), who originally turned me on to the R 2500 R, and who has provided such outstanding pre-sales and post-sales support. I wish every dealer had Juan’s knowledge, experience, and customer-support skills. I can’t recommend Bliss too highly.

Actually, Ayre was high on my list when I first started my search.  Those X and R series models, and especially the $12K EX-8 2.0 integrated, were almost a slam dunk for me.

Unfortunately, it seems that Ayre is having some serious internal issues and I hear rumors from insiders that, despite its public notices, may be on the verge of going out of business.

I can't verify whether this is true or not, but the difficulty finding any product in the channel led me to err on the side of caution and put an X through the EX-8.  FWIW, the T+A has a reputation for being at least in the same class, sonically, as the best Ayre separates, so I'm pretty happy with my purchase. 

And really, I can't say anything bad about Ayre products.  As you say, they punch way above their weight class, great Charlie designs.