Systems over $100k

@tonywinga 

+1

I know it can be daunting to think about, especially for a young person starting out in audio to see the high cost of hifi gear.  Most of us did not walk into a store and buy a complete system at one time.  I couldn't even imagine trying to build a system and know it is optimized in a single purchase event.  Most like me, I'm sure have built up their systems over decades through a slow methodical process with many twists and turns and even backtracks.  We all have our stories that go with the evolution of our hifi's.

The best path for a young person getting into audio is to first and always stay within your means.  Patience and learning payoff over time.  Key is to buy well known trusted brands- used or new.  These brands over the years hold their value.  Many new names and what appear as terrific design ideas pop up but these purchases can be risky and may be worth very little in the future.  Perhaps the best thing about the hifi hobby is that you can essentially make payments on your system as you go so to speak.  As you save up for an amp or speaker upgrade you can still enjoy the amp and speakers that you have.

I started in this hobby in 1977 with a used Kenwood receiver and a couple of beat up old speakers.  I spent many hours looking longingly at the hifi gear in stores over the years imagining what joy it all could have brought me in my home.  Learning about gear and synergy of the various hifi components through a network of friends or clubs is priceless.  Tweaks and upgrades from as simple as bass traps to new capacitors in crossovers can provide a lot of satisfaction and learning in this hobby. And the gear is just the half of it.  Then there is the whole world of music to discover.  Many musicians and bands are just as amazing as a half million dollar mega system.

So you bought a system worth over $100,000 and now you’re going to Disneyland?

It’s all about the journey and the destination sometimes not as much fun unless it’s Disneyland. Is it possible to ever be satisfied?

It’s incredibly difficult to learn about all there is to learn about and then to make decisions and then to find something Nice to look at and then if you’re married you have to satisfy your wife which is the toughest challenge. Of course if you’re single it makes it all a whole lot easier.

Of course rationalizing justification for spending in excess of $100,000 to improve how something sounds is something that many of us don’t really think about unless of course you’re married.

Add then there is the local dealer you’ve worked with in the past who doesn’t sell the stuff you really want to buy which makes it more frustrating since you can’t really see and hearsomething before you buy it. Taking delivery via UPS of a box costing a lot can be risky. I would prefer giving money to someone who I know and have worked with in the past. I think this industry will migrate to more direct sales from manufacturers as dealers unfortunately don’t offer much value as manufacturers tend to talk to you in more detail vs a dealer.

And then the choice of selling off equipment that has been upgraded is a pain in the ass so i have a dedicated place to store all the stuff as I hate selling stuff at such a huge discount.

Then my greatest fear if something should happen to me is that all the expensive cables I have bought Will be sold off for pennies on the dollar since no one will know what they are.  In this case I am labeling all my expensive cables with a $ amount.  No doubt this will be shocking.

If I hit a giant lottery, yes I will buy at least 100k system for my man room....and a better one for the living room.Oh and another one for the library, wait and one for Cinema Room....probably 500k 

100K+  Plan to add more Rel subs and a new DAC at some point.  

@aj523  construe as you wish

Is that defined by retail pricing or what we actually spent ? 

Yes it is!  I got to live and work there for a few years back at the end of the 20th Century.  It was still a DM economy back then.  My family and I loved the experience.  I cherish those memories.

Tonywinga, every thing in Germany is interesting !

I will be done when I can not imagine better sound. 

?? It can always improve...

Some years back I wandered into a watch shop in Germany that looked interesting. Owning an Omega Seamaster Professional I considered myself a watch aficionado. I got schooled that day. Every watch in that store was hand made. The prices were breathtaking as much as the beauty of some of those pieces. The proprietor looked at my Omega with disdain and mentioned it being simply a mass produced watch. That store was way out of my league and I never had the need for such a watch. I realized then that at some point it is not about how much money or even performance. Even those expensive handmade watches cannot outperform a $20 quartz timepiece. It becomes about having something no one else has as well as something to simply admire like a fine crystal vase. Look and feel in a watch is everything.

If you are looking for performance per dollar in a stereo then the best path is used vintage gear with internal component updates and tweaks. I went that path for many years starting in the late 80’s. Ugly looks was a thing of pride like a rusty 63 Chevy that can beat any Corvette. It is a fun path to discovery of what works and what is not so great that can be very rewarding. By the late 90s I was wading into the expensive gear but with an eye for manufacturers using components and designs that made good sense. I have to admit that the expensive stuff can sound really, really good. Of course at some point spending more money does not gain much sonic benefit. Then it becomes about look and feel.

I have appreciation for some of my buddies’ systems in the past that looked kluged together- the industrial look, I called it but sounded amazing and for the highly finished and polished systems that could be in a museum. But when the lights are out looks mean nothing and it is all about the sound.

@infection

@mulveling you definitely need to make it sound great for metal! What do you need to change for that? Very nice system. I think you should try the Audio Physic Cardeas with the VAC amplification.

Thanks! The VAC preamp & amp combination is what saps just a bit of the adrenaline and drive for heavy metal but wins outright on all other music. Any breakup of the 2 units can absolutely slay with metal - for example, VAC 200iQ amps paired with ARC Ref 6, or the VAC Master pre paired with either Phison A2.120SE or Rogue Apollo Dark amps. It’s just the VAC pre & amp pairing which lags specifically on stuff with a very fast, hard and driving beat. The full VAC stack is extremely smooth and beautiful sounding, but not quite as clean / punchy / driving and impactful in bass as the other 3 combos I mentioned. Well, to be fair, when a power metal song slows down a bit (Avantasia, Magnum) the VAC stack shines again! Kevin Hayes of VAC is literally a wizard of voicing components, nobody else can do what he does, but I don’t think he listens to any metal 😅

Honestly I wish I could flip a switch to one of the other combos for just metal and harder driving rock. That would be sufficient! But even if there is a truly transparent switching mechanism, I lack the floor / rack space to pull it off.

All of the cartridges and SUTs I like can also do heavy metal well - no issues there.

Several years ago I heard an Audio Physic with VAC in the chain (Renaissance III preamp, though I forget what amp). I forget which model, it looked similar to the one you mentioned but slightly smaller. It had the cone tweeter, a couple of front facing midrange drivers, and side firing woofers. Yeah, it was a gorgeous sound - absolutely amazing soundstage and imaging. I was kinda smitten. Unfortunately my dealer stopped carrying them.

System price is absolutely no indication of system performance. I do not think it is any easier to build a good system if you have a lot of money to throw at it. I would also include the room as one of the components. If you place great equipment, well set up, in a terrible room you get a terrible system. 

I will be done when I can not imagine better sound. 

@mulveling you definitely need to make it sound great for metal! What do you need to change for that? Very nice system. I think you should try the Audio Physic Cardeas with the VAC amplification. 

Your question reminds me of the 3-part one that got me banned from /r/askreddit: 

What is the most valuable thing you own,  

What's your address, and  

When are you most likely not to be home?   

People posted some great answers until a mod made it clear that doxxing is no laughing matter. Bet they're a lot of fun at parties. 

Yes, by any metric it’s over 100.

Last several years have been a constant push & pull between "done for now", "ever evolving", and "I want to try a new toy". I can’t say that will ever change!

Every major component sounds distinctly different in this system - so I’ve ended up collecting a few different preamps, a few different amps, many cartridges and SUT, lots of tubes, etc. Some combinations are definitely better than others, so I’m focusing on optimizing around the best of those and trying to settle on a "best" combination for all music genres, hopefully for a while. Presently what's holding that up - I have one combination which is a bit lacking for harder rock & heavy metal, but sounds best on everything else 😬

I’m not interested in those that try to oversell acoustic treatments. The gear is what’s most important to me.

OK...I can see why it was deleted.

Acoustic method with passive treatment and mechanical active control of the dedicated small room is more POWERFUL than almost any upgrade of any piece of gear..

Audiophile experience is linked to acoustic knowledge not to price tags..

The electronic engineering market is mature so much now that we can buy basically good piece of gear at relatively low costs...

The acoustic knowledge of small room is in his infancy because the need for a dedicated small room was not there save for few customers... Most customers put their system in a living room...

My point is the only luxury in audio is DEDICATED tunable room for the specfic speakers...

I dont give a dam about costly gear...I dont need it to fill my room with 3d musical instruments with natural timbre  and even relatively to some record sound coming from my back with this steroe basic system... it is clear?

The ratio of S.Q. of my modest system is over the roof...It is not the best system at all...But my dedicated room is at his best for this speakers which are already basic good one for sure...

i put all my 7 headphones of all types in a closet..Think about that... Electrostatcis, planar, dynamc one and hibryd one... How this is possible if the sound of my speakers room is not better than each one of them ?

It is and why?

ACOUSTIC control...

that is my point in a nutshell...

@mahgister what did you say?

@jg2077 

Thanks Jose, yes the Commander looks quite substantial. If I got wind of the new line, perhaps would have waited before purchasing the Pandora. Actually not perhaps! I would have waited. Pandora is only 2 months old. Your Solos with the Cygnus and Nagra HD will be hard pressed for very many others to compete with. Take good care man....

  John

@jakesnak.  Greetings, i hope all is well. 

I don't know what to replace the Solos with...i will compare to Apex once available.   Most of all, I'm really Intrested in the Commander.  NAGRA HD has an organic,  natural sound that paired well with Solos; hard combination to beat.  

Cheers, 

Jose 

@ghdprentice So jealous!  I used to sell their stuff and it is awesome.  I realize not EVERYTHING they made/make is SOTA, but if you (possibly) have the new big Maggies being run by all Audio Research reference gear, you truly have the most accurate system I have ever heard.

Doing your room as well, since it is, once again, THE MOST IMPORTANT element in any system, is key.

These days, my new "downsized" home will no longer permit me to have the system I would like, but then again this house is for my child to sell when I am gone, so value is key at this point.

Still jealous, however.  Wish I had purchased 3 D-150's back then...Oh, well, it makes me happy that people like yourself realized what was what and use the best gear.

Cheers!

@jg2077 

How are you Jose? We spoke before. I thought you were going to sell your Solos? No I have not compared anything as of yet. I have spoken with some folks. I am in the preliminary planning part of this. I was very close in going with APEX/COMMANDER, however the part in which the Mephisto/Pandora was going to be worked into the deal fell apart. Will perhaps have to consider a private deal in the future? I am almost happy it went this way, money better spent with speaker upgrade. The Mephisto/Pandora with My EMM  LABS DV2, just work well together. The transparent nature of Gryphon and the Organic presentation of the DV2 pair well.  All though I have NO Complaints with JA 20/20's. They do everything right. Cygnus are exceptional! In terms of Preamp I like to pair preamp with the same company's amplification. The green Bias is another plus for me. Huge room, 30 X 26 X 26H, A frame Log Home. Head Room is needed! I have heard good things about Nagra HD. How would you say the Nagra HD distinguished itself from the Pandora? All the Best Jose...

John

@mahgister what did you say?

@jakesnak 

did you compare Rockport Lyra to the Cygnus? I use Cygnus and considering Lyra.

i preferred Nagra HD to the Pandora, with the Solos.

respectfully, 

Jose 

My post about acoustic was suppressed by whom?

I bought my house because the living room had an ideal setup for a HT/stereo.  Does that count??

My system basic cost is 500 bucks..

But with all my acoustic devices ( homemade) he sound more like a 100,000 dollars one or a bit behind it to me... 😊

Is this count ?

I will not upgrade, why?

nothing exceed acoustic mechanical control in a dedicated room...Especially if the basic gear are well designed to begin with for sure...There is always something best...But when the piano sound natural and fill the room  what more?

And i dont think that one of the best amplifier in the world in 1978 is a piece of shit now... 😁😊

I guess the mere thought of starting again with new amps, pre's and speakers is too overwhelming

Yeah can be...

@infection I try to never say never, but as I mentioned I'm aging out of another rebuild of system, and my planned upgrades and mods with streaming and vinyl setups means basics will likely never get changed.

I mod cars and motorcycles in a similar manner to my audio systems, the bikes and cars always come to endpoint, can't say the same about audio, at least to this  point. I guess the mere thought of starting again with new amps, pre's and speakers is too overwhelming, I'd feel too much at loose ends.

Often people don't look far enough as to what they may eventually obtain.

Indeed. 

@djones51, + 2

@ebm mine is only about $67k.

infection what 100k system do you have?

Seriously considering that. You start to wonder where the money will be best spent.  Pandora/Mephisto is a great combination. That combo with top tier Rockport, Lyra (hard to beat) Vs Apex/Commander with my JA Pearl 20/20's? First combo is money better spent. Incrementally, you want the biggest impact for the buck. The point I am attempting to make is, best to think the incremental improvements out to accomplish biggest bank for the buck. Often people don't look far enough as to what they may eventually obtain.

@jakesnak sounds like you already have a great reference system. Do you think you’ll purchase the Apex/Commander? 

@sns if budget allows can you really, completely settle on amps & speakers...?!

I suspect the upgrades for most of us won't end until we age out. I know I'm done building my last system, I have nothing to complain about as to sound quality, no reason to start over.

My sense is once you've settled on amp, preamp and speakers you're in good place. Sources and tuning are enough to keep one occupied, and having settled on vast majority of inherent sound qualities playing at the margins completely satisfying. Optimizing my streaming has totally reinvigorated my interest in discovery and experimentation. At some point this too will be settled, already have plans for vinyl side upgrades.

I suppose if one's into modding and tuning there's never an end point, system value has no bearing on this. Again, it will likely be age or death that imposes static system on me.

You think?

Teds 350K system is due to 1000% profit he makes on his cables.  And, we audiophools are dumb enough to pay the prices. 

@mikelavigne  I suppose you're right...which makes him even more of an idiot. Oh no I'll probably be banned now. 

no, it was removed because someone ’reported’ your comment. and it’s one of the words that get the post removed when it's reported.

i did not see your ’removed’ post, and am speculating how the process works.

My post was removed because I called someone an idiot...?! That's ridiculous. 

The evolution of an audiophile. I started with Phase Linear, Revox A77, Empire TT, Epicure, didn't give cables a 2nd thought back in the day. This was a lot of money back than. Now Gryphon Mephisto/Pandora/EMM's DV2, M12 switch, Cardas, JCAT LPS, Cables, JA Pearl 20/20's. Still in pursuit of improvement. Now Gryphon's new APEX/Commander enters the fray.  One either comprehends this pursuit or not? What ever floats your boat? Its just not possible to put together a world class system without spending a lot of money. I don't dictate the pricing, if one is fortunate to be able to delve this deep, be grateful. 

@audioquest4life

A little off topic, but, what is the brand of armchair in your pic? It looks nice. Is it your listening chair? I am looking for a set of front row arm chairs that are comfortable for music listening and with enough plushness for watching moves. The front row seats I have now are huge Palliser home theater seats which eat into my space and I keep them extended to lower the backrests because they block the mids from the speakers. Thnx.

This was my living room system when I lived in Newport Beach. The chair was purchased with a sofa of the same design at Design Within Reach. I believe it’s from Spain. This system played into an open floor plan that you could hear in the kitchen, and the dining room. Sounded really good for floor to ceiling glass on both sides, with wooden floors, and a minimalist esthetic so, not much to break up the sound. In my actual reference system I use Herman Miller Eames lounge chairs that do not extend up past your shoulders. You definitely don’t wanna chair that extends up behind your ears, unless you’re trying to mitigate bad acoustics behind your seating position. And even then.

I will never exceed $50k where I am at now. 
 

If I do I will have sell one of my 4 motorcycles, that is my contract with my wife. 

I broke $100k on my system early last year after retiring.  I replaced everything but my speakers and turntable last year.  I planned to replace my speakers early this year but after changing out electronics, running dedicated power lines, adding the AQ Niagara, adding a wood floor with wool rugs, adding acoustic treatments and a month of concerted effort to get the bass right with subs and speaker placement; new speakers are no longer a priority.  I have also made several tweaks that turned out very well.  Not all tweaks turn out well but that is part of the fun of discovery.  I also have a new turntable being built right now.  I expect my system to be stable after this final equipment change.

It is true that the room is an integral part of the stereo system.  I am fortunate to have a large den and so was able to dedicate the room to the stereo.  The biggest lesson this past year was how to get the bass right.  Even after room treatments and adding a 7/8" wood floor it still took me a month of effort to finally get the bass to sound as good as what I heard on a very expensive pair of speakers at the store.

All I want to do now is listen to music.  I noted that the tube timer on my preamp showed 1300 hours after one year.  That's 3.6 hours/day on average.  The longest I seem to be able to go without turning the stereo on is about two days.  I guess I am getting good value from my stereo.