jetter
188 posts
12-31-2016 12:44pm
I don't see any flaw in Al's discussion points. None whatsoever.
Exactly! 😀
Synergistic Red Fuse ...
I installed a SR RED Quantum fuse in my ARC REF-3 preamp a few days ago, replacing an older high end fuse. Uhh ... for a hundred bucks, this little baby is well worth the cost. There was an immediate improvement upon installation, but now that its broken in (yes, no kidding), its quite remarkable. A tightening of the focus, a more solid image, and most important of all for my tastes, a deeper appreciation for the organic sound of the instruments. Damn! ... cellos sound great! Much improved attack on pianos. More humanistic on vocals. Bowed bass goes down forever. Next move? .... I'm doing the entire system with these fuses. One at a time though just to gauge the improvement in each piece of equipment. The REF-75se comes next. I'll report the results as the progression takes place. Stay tuned ...
Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?
Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?
4,839 responses Add your response
Al and Mitch, and atmasphere - excellent arguments by all of you. In fact, I’d go so far as to say your arguments would probably sway almost anyone, especially a newbie, who has not already heard directionality for himself. I especially like all the arguments regarding age, credentials, industry merit badges, and personal skepticism. Nice touch! 😀 Have a nice new year |
Good points by Mitch2, IMO. Who as he stated has tried SR Red and several other audiophile-oriented fuses, with unimpressive results, and whose audiophile credentials and experience are unimpeachable IMO. Frank (OP), regarding the comments by Warren Gehl about directionality, which you had cited in this thread on 10-6-2016, I had made the following suggestion in the subsequent post: If you have an opportunity to speak with Warren on this question again, you might ask him why any such effect is not completely swamped by the randomly oriented grain directions of the vastly longer lengths of wire that are in series with the fuse, that are conducting exactly the same current. Especially in the case of AC mains fuses, where the AC wiring in the component and in the primary winding of its power transformer, and the wiring in the component’s power cord, are all conducting that same current. Not to mention the wiring inside and outside of the house, which are also conducting that current in addition to other currents.Also, I would again call attention to the comments about fuse directionality that have been presented here by four different designers of well regarded audio electronics, as quoted by me in the first of my posts dated 10-28-2016 near the middle of this page of the present thread. Which are to the effect that for a fuse to have inherent directional characteristics is impossible. And as a very experienced electronics designer myself, in my case in the defense electronics field, I agree. And furthermore, as quoted in that post, one of those designers (Atmasphere) has explained why a fuse may **appear** to have inherent directional characteristics, but that he has experimentally found that the same audible and measurable effect can be accomplished by simply rotating the fuse in its holder. It is certainly true that technical understanding and analysis can neither explain nor predict a lot about what we hear or don’t hear from our systems. And in fact I have said on many occasions here that from a technical standpoint there are many things that by their very nature are inherently unpredictable. But technical understanding and analysis can explain and predict some things with certainty. Including the impossibility of fuses having inherent directional characteristics, IMO and that of the aforementioned designers. If people hear differences when the direction of a fuse is reversed, something other than inherent directionality is responsible. Regards, -- Al |
Yes indeed the fuse is the bottleneck in the power supply. Try this simple test for those brave enough to try :) Replace the fuse with an appropriately sized solid core, pure copper lug of 6-10 gauge and hear the improvement. Hopefully your house will not burn down for this short listening test😁 These high end fuses are made to remove the fuse bottleneck. Yes I have done this with digital gear and liked the improvement. No fires. Never a problem. I am not suggesting anyone do this for longer than a short listening session. |
Geoff... Hey, didn’t we solve the directional thingie a while back in this thread with Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion?"Solve" is such an absolute word in audiophile land where so much is uncharted and unexplainable. Do we need to revisit our previous discussion regarding not confusing testimony with fact? I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears a bunch of dudes on this thread, without mentioning any names, were somehow left off the distribution list for the memo regarding Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion.As an update to all the "dudes," are you referring to this memo... "Warren Gehl of Audio Research, who listens to every product before it leaves the factory, not only hears differences among different fuses, but he has found that they sound different depending on the orientation within the socket, and he changes their direction as he sees fit."or this one....
Does Warren ever explain how the "metallurgy situation" ends up manifesting itself as an "electrical one" so it can actually affect what someone hears from their system? I don't doubt that the grain in a wire could be affected by the extrusion process, and you may even be able to see that effect under an electron microscope, but given that the typical resistance variation of the one inch of thin wire in the typical "audiophile" fuse (such as the HFT gold or the Isoclean fuses measured and reported by HiFi Tuning) was about 1 mOhms or in some cases much less, which is about 0.001 Ohms or less, it is still a mystery to me how that minuscule amount of difference could possibly account for a noticeable, much less "dramatic" or "repeatable," difference/improvement of the sound of one's system, especially given the much greater resistances attributable to all the other wiring, parts and power supplies in a system's components, resistances of cables connecting the components, and variations in residential power. And yes, I have tried multiples of the fuses including HFT, Isoclean, Furutech and SR Red, and yes I have rotated them, and yes I still have my hearing, and no I am not listening on a walkman, but yet - nada..... Roger Modjeski may have put it best, "If a butterfly flew by.....we might see a bigger difference"Happy New Year to all |
^^^ Charles ... I like to do a little at a time in order to gauge the improvement (or degradation) with each step in the "tweaking" process. I've been in the process of replacing the stock ARC dampening rings with Herbie dampeners. This is not a subtle change for the better. Its another ear opening experience. Herbie has a CD mat that just covers the inner ring of the CD. Its called the "Super Black Hole." It has some really good reviews, so I'll be trying that soon. And hey, Herbie's has a generous return policy too. http://herbiesaudiolab.net/cdmat.htm |
almarg 12/2916 8.10pm " However, as I’ve previously said in this thread what seems unexplainable is that upgrading to a specific fuse would be found to be sonically beneficial with the high degree of consistency that has been reported, among components that are completely different in design, that perform completely different functions, that are used in very different systems, that are powered by AC having very different voltage and noise characteristics, and in DC as well as AC applications. That continues to be a mystery as far as I am concerned." I am making this post in good faith, because your tone and reasoned approach deserves a corresponding response. I do not have all the answers but I believe there is an approach that may be helpful on a macro level. Forget the fuse for a moment. A fuse cannot do the things you attribute to it. BUT A POWER SUPPLY CAN. All electronic devices, regardless of what they do , or whether AC or DC powered, require and do have one or more power supplies. The Power Supply is the single most important component of all electronic devices. IT IS THE HEART OF THE DEVICE. It does not matter what the function of the device is. It does not matter whether the device is a preamp, power amp, CD player, DAC, Tuner, or a device used in commercial or industrial instrumentation. It does not matter whether the AC has different voltage and noise characteristics. The Power Supply in an electronic device is like the heart in all animals. It does not matter whether the animal is a lion a mouse or an elephant. It does not matter if the animal lives in the North Pole or in the SAHARA desert. Optimum performance of all animals is dependent on a healthy and properly functioning heart. The vast majority of power supplies contain one or more fuses. We know from experience that the performance of a Power Supply used in an audio product can be influenced by a fuse. How do we know this? We use the most accurate devices available. The human ears working in concert with the brain and nervous system to decode cognitive and emotional content (music) But how can a fuse have such a salubrious effect on the music we hear? I do not know. I do not know anyone who does. Neither do I know what goes on at the sub subatomic level. Nor did Einstein. Yet what happens at the subatomic level is the basis of our stereo systems. |
Frank, Herbie's Audio Labs offers some very cost effective products in my experience. A few years ago I used their "Tender foot" component footers and they were clearly better than some more expensive alternatives I compared with them during that period. They were very good for not much money. Charles |
oregonpapa OP Hey, didn’t we solve the directional thingie a while back in this thread with Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion? I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears a bunch of dudes on this thread, without mentioning any names, were somehow left off the distribution list for the memo regarding Warren Gehl’s input about wire extrusion. |
I should amend my post to note that SR Black fuses are more like 40 times the price of standard fare. Note that geoffkait’s HiFi tuning info post easily fails the logic smell test as it includes the same "directionality" nonsense along with references to "data" with no actual data…5%? Really? It’s amazing that a firm such as HiFi Tuning while selling a product would support such products…who knew? I realize many here feel these things help the mojo of their gear somehow, but the lack of any explanation of WHY they help a power supply improve its function and the downstream components (and apparently all aspects of the listening experience including but not limited to soundstage, cello tone, ear wax reduction, and Jo Mama, as long as break-in time and directionality issues are considered) beyond mere speculation is troubling. Or consumer fraud. In any case the fuse rating issue remains a dangerous thing that even "Fusers" may want to think about, as it was my understanding that UL approval (Or maybe Good Housekeeping?) keeps things safe with pesky electrical failure safety testing on everything from toasters to Pass Labs. I might be wrong about that, but I like my fuses to be the proper value with zero wiggle room ("Fuse blew? Try one rated higher, insurance will rebuild your house after the fire so what’s the big deal?"). Now I can sit back and wait for my big fat promotional check from Littlefuse…oh yeah…uh huh... |
Almarg I don’t exclude the possibility that a fuse change can make a difference, but once again the explanations that are offered in support of the existence of those differences do not withstand quantitative scrutiny. Sounds reminiscent of Juror #3 in 12 Angry Men: "You can’t PROVE it!" 😡 By the way one has to admire the way you leave a little wiggle room, you know, Justin Case later on down the road you are PROVEN incorrect. 😛 Or, as my boss at NASA was fond of saying, never get behind anyone 100%. |
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I have provided detailed comments on the HiFi Tuning measurements on a number of occasions in this and other threads. For example see the first of my posts dated 5-14-2012 about 3/4 of the way down on this page in the "Fuses That Matter" thread from several years ago. And regarding their directionality-related measurements see my post dated 4-8-2016 near the middle of this page of the "Quality and Security of Littelfuse Products" thread. And I had provided further comments about directionality in the first of my posts dated 10-28-2016 near the middle of this page of the present thread. The bottom line, as I stated in the first of those posts: I don't exclude the possibility that a fuse change can make a difference, but once again the explanations that are offered in support of the existence of those differences do not withstand quantitative scrutiny.Regarding the comments about audio being a combination of art and science/engineering, I certainly agree. In fact that is one of the reasons I became interested in audio, several decades ago, and continue to be interested in it. Regards, -- Al |
analogluvr If it's measurable can you provide the measurements please? analogluvr And almarg, I believe I can solve the mystery. It's called confirmation bias. Analgluber, thanks for asking. HiFi Tuning data sheets at, http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf How does one measure confirmation bias? have a nice new year |
Allow me to draw your attention to some of the conclusions found on the data sheets of HiFi Tuning, manufacturer of the HiFi Tuning fuses. o Aftermarket fuses gave the best results for conductivity and HiFi Tuning cryogenically treated fuses gave the best results of all fuses tested. o Aftermarket fuses almost always tested and sounded better than stock fuses. [Editor’s note: a stock fuse in the correct direction could sound better than an aftermarket fuse in the wrong direction and a stock fuse that’s been cryogenically treated could sound better than an aftermarket fuse that hasn’t been treated.] o Fuses with smaller dimensions were found to sound better than fuses of the same value with larger dimensions. o Fuses (both stock and aftermarket) from different manufacturers sounded different. We attribute that sonic difference to different materials used in the due wire and contact points and or different purity of the same material in the various fuses tested. The (obvious) differences in sonic results of various fuses of the same value could not be completely explained by the measurements, which were relatively small. o There is a measureable difference in directionality of fuses of around 5% for all types of fuses. have a nice new year geoff kait machina dynamica |
charles 1dad 12/30/2016 " Audio truly is a mixture of science and engineering principles but art as well." Well said Sir Charles. The art you mention can only be gained from experience ( hard work, trial and error and a fanatical desire to succeed ). I would estimate that 35% of success in audio is based on book learning, while 65% is attributable to experience. Book learning is essential and provides the foundation for development but it is the additional specialized knowledge gained from experience (blood, sweat and tears) in the field that elevates the winners. |
"Like many things in audio the raw data does not explain it all" Bill that’s a reality I accepted long ago due to repeated listening encounters that defied "conventional wisdom " based on available technical specifications. Audio truly is a mixture of science and engineering principles but art as well. Certainty I believe the higher % of contribution is the former, yet enough art factors in to be undeniably relevant. By art I'm referring to those factors that clearly influence what we hear but have no (as of now) technical validity to support them. I have a healthy curiosity about how and why things/products do what they do but not to the degree to prevent me from judging merit/worth based on listening. If someone asserts there’s no difference sonically between a 1 dollar and 100 dollar fuses it’d be foolish to buy the expensive fuse (obviously). I lack any desire to convince others who dismiss my and other listeners very positive experiences with premium quality fuses, to each their own, it’s actually that simple. Not everyone will have the same outcome as I and other participants here have had and that’s nothing unusual . I can only report my listening experiences and people are free to accept or reject them. It doesn’t by any means alter what I have heard in my system and that of other listeners. Charles |
While I agree technically with Almarg, I still think that tiny little wire does indeed impact the power supply in terms of sound. Like many things in audio the raw data does not explain it all. I have bypassed fuses, used circuit breaker on/off switches in place of fuses and in each instance heard obvious sound improvement. |
at 8 times the price of standard issue fusesWolf, you left a zero off of your price comparison factor. I pay about $1.50 for Cooper/Bussmann glass fuses or, if I splurge, about $3 for their ceramic body fuses. Al, I agree with you about the whole fuse thing...... http://orig05.deviantart.net/f16b/f/2014/142/7/e/fleetwood_mac_mystery_to_me_by_jonowens-d7j8rew.jpg |
So, again, my question remains unanswered, although obviously I still think it's relevant and very basic. Most manufacturers of "audiophile" tweak products like gear racks, cables, tube dampers, spiky or rubbery feet, etc., will be happy to explain the whys and wherefores of what the product actually technically does, even if the design theories are a little sketchy or controversial. Fuses not so much, or in the case of SR's fuses, nada. I've tried 'em, they don't do anything sonically at 8 times the price of standard issue fuses, and they're somewhat dangerous. |
Almarg 12-292016 " That continues to be a mystery as far as I am concerned " What remains a mystery to me is that you have not evaluated Synergistic's black fuses in your system and published the results in this forum. This could easily be accomplished in three weeks, thereby allowing you to return them within the 30 day return period ( if you so desire ). |
Dave, you are 100% correct in your 12/26 post, the black fuses sounded glorious for the first 10 hours, then yesterday and today at 11 to 20 hours, the system sounded mediocre, comparable to mid-fi solid state from the 80's, tonally thin, undynamic, shallow soundstage, hashy, etc. (both fuse directions). I cannot listen to this so I am taking Frank and your advise in keeping my big tube amps on until after New Years (4 days continuously). I hope the fuses break-in sounding at least as good as when I first installed them. There is a question which I haven't seen answered. Do large amperage, slo-blo fuses take longer to break in than low amperage fast blow fuses? Frank suggested it may not matter when I asked him due to the graphene and other dampening compounds which take the same amount of time to break-in. Lastly, I would greatly appreciate a company that breaks in their products. For the fuses, I would gladly pay 50% more instead of burning up my tubes waiting for the fuses to be listenable. |
Bill (Grannyring), as you realize a given length of 14 gauge wire will have much lower resistance than the same length of thin fuse wire. However, the very short length of a fuse wire will result in very low resistance anyway, since the resistance of a conductor is directly proportional to length (as are inductance, capacitance, and many other wire and cable parameters and effects). Consequently the voltage drop across a fuse in an audio component will be a small fraction of a volt, and in many cases a very small fraction of a volt. That can be confirmed via some simple calculations based on the detailed technical specs that are provided for Littelfuse and Bussmann fuses. It would seem expectable that there will be **some** circumstances under which loss of a small fraction of a volt in a fuse would have audible consequences, although not necessarily in the direction of causing the sonics to be worse. However, as I’ve previously said in this thread what seems unexplainable is that upgrading to a specific fuse would be found to be sonically beneficial with the high degree of consistency that has been reported, among components that are completely different in design, that perform completely different functions, that are used in very different systems, that are powered by AC having very different voltage and noise characteristics, and in DC as well as AC applications. That continues to be a mystery as far as I am concerned. Best regards, -- Al |
"It’s judgmental to talk negatively about people who may not think that buying 10 or 15 fuses is worth the sonic improvement and may experience "cognitive dissonance". Some people may have more important things they value than to spend their hard earned on fuses." Well written post, jetter, and it is true that many important priorities in life take, or should take, priority over audio, fuses or otherwise. Having gone back through this entire thread a few days ago, I recall no one, no not one "believer", criticizing anyone for not buying these fuses. What I did read ad nauseam was repeated personal attacks by those intent on ridiculing them that experienced success and were sharing their positive results (to be expected on an audio forum, no?), and doing their best to defend against the onslaught of personal attacks. All but one or two of these attackers had never tried the fuses and were clearly only interested in using ridicule and viciousness to fuel their intentions to spoil the thread for everyone. The detractors may have been invited or even urged off of the island, but in fact, chose to leave once their motives were evident and their tactics were unsuccessful, behavior typical of malevolent and contemptible bullies in all walks of life. Best to you jetter and a Happy New Year to you as well, Dave |
I think there is something that should be mentioned. It's judgmental to talk negatively about people who may not think that buying 10 or 15 fuses is worth the sonic improvement and may experience "cognitive dissonance". Some people may have more important things they value than to spend their hard earned on fuses. And lets be real, soon there will be a SR platinum that "blows away" the SR blacks that "blows away" the SR reds that "blows away" whatever the one was before it. I have been member of A'gon for longer than most, and have found this thread fascinating, thanks oregonpapa. In the end, it is the believers versus the non believers. The believers are well respected, but the non believers think they are perhaps experiencing at the worst mass hallucinations or at best the effects of cleaning their fuse holders. While among the non believers are some of the most technically respected on this site, it is obvious to the believers that their systems are not resolving enough or their hearing not up to par to appreciate the improvements the fuses make. And of course some of the more socially polite non believers whose name we will not mention (ALMARG) are allowed to present their cases with diplomatic immunity, others of not as polite stuture have been cast off the island. May we all be happy and healthy in the New Year! |
grannyring They work because fuses are the biggest bottleneck in the power supply. Bypass the fuse and improve the sound far more. I am not saying do it, but the point is any fuse is the weak link in the power supply. That tiny, tiny, thin wire of a fuse placed in an environment needing a more substantial gauge of wire is a certain and easily understood bottleneck. SR should also make a better fuse holder as this is yet another bottleneck. So anything that helps that tiny, thin wire act more like a 14 gauge copper wire will improve things. That is no doubt what they did as well as others. This gets us closer the mystery of the SR or any Aphile fuse. Not sure I agree with your detective work, no offense. Because all of the aftermarket fuses employ thin wires (just like the stock off the shelf fuses) - with obvious higher performance - I suspect we can rule out thinness of the internal wire as the bottleneck. I suspect the real answer has more to do with purer metals for the wire and the end caps, vibration control and RFI/EMI absorption AND last but not least wire directionality. have a nice new year |
They work because fuses are the biggest bottleneck in the power supply. Bypass the fuse and improve the sound far more. I am not saying do it, but the point is any fuse is the weak link in the power supply. That tiny, tiny, thin wire of a fuse placed in an environment needing a more substantial gauge of wire is a certain and easily understood bottleneck. SR should also make a better fuse holder as this is yet another bottleneck. So anything that helps that tiny, thin wire act more like a 14 gauge copper wire will improve things. That is no doubt what they did as well as others. This gets us closer the mystery of the SR or any Aphile fuse. |
"Yes you better move up in amperage as they seem to have a tendency to blow if matching the current fuse in place." One should try to not change the fuse type nor current handling value (upward). This is violation of code and design, and will cost you the validity of house insurance, contents, etc. It can open a world of hurt in the legal end of things if something should go awry. I can say that I understand and believe in the idea and reality of ’audio’ fuses’. Importantly, though... fuses are legally and otherwise, in their certification and use --- wholly sacrosanct. I’m willing to go as far ...or in most cases, much further down the road for better sound, than the folks reading this. However, I do not screw around with non certified, non tested fusing, nor fuse type or values. Power rail fuse on a power amp? maybe. But only if the AC power fuse in the amp’s AC inlet....is proper in type and value as to the original specification. As long as the audio fuses in question are definitely of a known proper certification, and correct amperage and type...then it’s a go, when used for the AC power on the given gear. |
"Anyone tried the fuses filled with bees wax? $175 per fuse." One cannot legally sell a fuse filled with bees wax, nor modify a fuse to such an extent, in such a way --- that it violates code and original certification specs. You can put just about anything in a piece of gear, but you can't mess with the fusing nor AC power input systems and hardware. The legal system and the certification boards of the government will come down on that like a ton of bricks, for all the right reasons. |
I continue to wonder HOW SR fuses do whatever they are claimed to do. I realize that to the SR faithful this question is blasphemy, and to even raise this question often engenders the ire of the Magic Fuse Faithful, but since this question has never been answered, I still wonder. I'm not contacting SR because I'm more interested in what the SR fuse users, or "Fusers," think the answer might be. Massaged electrons? Current being passed along to the circuits with a light coating of sauce? SR claims to zap the fuses with a zillion volts or something, and puts graphene someplace, but I still wonder how they arrived at this technology, and why? Also, why can't they produce a product that conforms to existing standards of use (like my 2 dollar Littlefuse products do) if they're sophisticated enough to manufacture them in the first place? Note this post doesn't need to be read carefully the first time as geoffkait will repost it in his response. Thanks is advance for the kind and well considered answers to my query. |
I would not recommend your doing this. I didn't do this and had no problem. You might damage your component which might cost you much more.+1. Actually I replaced stock large slo-blo 7A with a SR RED/Black 6.3A in my ARC REF250 without issues. I find specifications from boutique companies lack precision so sometimes replacing with higher value is fine ... treat each component individually. |
