I installed a SR RED Quantum fuse in my ARC REF-3 preamp a few days ago, replacing an older high end fuse. Uhh ... for a hundred bucks, this little baby is well worth the cost. There was an immediate improvement upon installation, but now that its broken in (yes, no kidding), its quite remarkable. A tightening of the focus, a more solid image, and most important of all for my tastes, a deeper appreciation for the organic sound of the instruments. Damn! ... cellos sound great! Much improved attack on pianos. More humanistic on vocals. Bowed bass goes down forever. Next move? .... I'm doing the entire system with these fuses. One at a time though just to gauge the improvement in each piece of equipment. The REF-75se comes next. I'll report the results as the progression takes place. Stay tuned ...
Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?
Expectation bias can be overruled by actual listening experience if one approaches with an open minded attitude. Generally the better something is the more it will cost. There are without doubt exceptions to this generality especially in High End audio. Higher price and performance don’t allows go hand in hand. The Create Audio fuse could be better or equal to the SR Black for all I know.
Problem is who determines which is better? Same answer as always, subjective, so better remains in the ear of the beholder/individual. No upgrade fuse is going to sound better than a stock fuse to someone convinced that it isn’t a possibility in the first place. Again expectation bias.
OK! Here's an excellent example of what we mean when we use the expression expectation bias. The Create Audio Deluxe Fuse sells for about 9 bucks and has been very favorably reviewed by such mags as 6 Moons whereas SR Black fuse, also very reviewed, sells for what $119? So most people would automatically assume the Black fuse MUST be superior to the Black fuse, right? Expectation bias.
And you should be able to express it that simply in an informed atmosphere, but that is not always true. The informed grouping is not unified or on the same page....and never will be.
The projected dogma inherent in the complex ape based vehicle of the human, makes such things difficult. The dogma -as unspoken/unrealized/unconscious ’clan stability’ projections - can make change for individual mindsets difficult and unloved.
The good part is that we are individuals. If we were not individuals and we were all exactly the same, the world would be a very dead thing. A commodity, in some systems of valuation. Thankfully, controlling the human race is like trying to herd cats. What some see as one of our greater flaws when it runs rampant, is the part that saves us.
Each of us gets to deal with some form of a grind, and in the end, it is important that it be there.
I’ve believed for a long time that science and engineering are two different disciplines with very different goals and purpose. I certainly don’t have the background of Teo_audio to go into any level of detail but I do know man cannot explain all that we clearly observe on a daily basis. Some have a problem coming to gripes with that fact. Summary, I hear what better fuses do in my audio system however I’m incapable of explaining why in a manner that will satisfy. This shortcoming doesn’t lessen my listening enjoyment.
I’ve been hesitant to point his out, but, George, your light sensitivity passive (ish) volume controlling devices..their entire idea in utilization and design..is all about how much better it sounds than a ’regular’ level control or volume pot.
We’re talking about ascribing ’large’ ’heard’ change in the listening domain, with vanishingly small signal differentials. differences so small they partially defy electronic description, or defy the ability of measurement technology to define or elucidate.
So..another component in audio gear that has similar considerations, is somehow, not relevant.
Not only is it similar, but the fuse is known to be an offender, and it can be traced back to how the fuse deals with signal. Specifically in how the fuse works, fundamentally. Electronically, and in historical aspects of how the fuse relates and is connected in the given systems - this is all very clear.
To anyone who is building and designing high end audio gear, this is (the connection to it by and of the fuse) all on the ground floor level of designing knowledge and lore.
I even alluded to the specific points that are considered and known (the basics), in my post about choosing a fuse. The science of fuses and the science of audio and the science of psychoacoustics are all coupled together in a way that makes this all very clear.
No audio engineering group individual is going to share this information with you as it is considered hard won in some cases, and also a gift of being a leg up on any given competition --if it is known. Why show one’s hands in a volatile and competitive market area. Why give it away to neophytes who may try to eat your market share in the future? What would be the point? To make a nay-sayer go away? ’ Craziest business decision ever’, would be the answer.
I could also get into the why of the fuse modifications, what they do, how they work, why they do what they do, how people hear it. I mean in intricate complete connected verifiable scientific detail (in my own words, of course).
Why give all that hard won stuff away? All because a few people on a thread on a forum are not making the connection? I don’t think so.
Importantly, engineering is not science. Science has only theories. Engineering has laws. Engineering is about building, so it has rules, so you don’t experiment with devices and constructions being built for the human world.
Science is about exploration and that is wholly error prone. Since it is error prone, it cannot ever suffer a law, as laws will make it circular and closed off, with no expandable future. When we get to the real exploration in science, we find there is not anything like a fact, either.
The bleeding edge of science, has, for as long as anyone can remember in this idea of organizing research and giving it a language in commonality...ie science...this science has not not one single fact. Zero.
The only ’fact’ in existence in science...is that there are no facts. A paradox. The core philosophical argument of science, right at the core of it... is the same paradox as quantum science --the wave-particle duality. Everything is theory that is subject to change.
When going to a big, or large complete university that does a lot of research and cutting edge work.. some campus with maybe 20-30-40k students, and a huge scientific faculty, you will find not one single prof who teaches scientific law. All of them teach scientific theory. As they know, scientific law are not real. These laws....they are imaginary placeholders for engineers and the engineering branches of the overall human edifice. You can’t have anyone building bridges and cars or whatever, on theories. To keep things stable and to train large amounts of functional engineers and builders in groups, they factualized science into "laws".
If relating to a scientific group of people (again, not engineers!) and you speak of scientific law, they will look at you like you are a fanatic or madman, or at least very poorly informed, misled, even. Possibly even dangerous. (for good reason, scientific law is dogma and has no place in actual ’new’ science)
It might be a bit uncomfortable for some. Some seem to need blanket the reality we face...with laws and systems of hard order. Maybe it helps them sleep at night. I don’t know. Religion helps people sleep at night too. We are human... so we tend to project these into norms foisted upon others. Thus Scientific law sneaks into dogmatic form and pushes as hard as religion, when it actually has not a leg to stand on. Except that of it's intended function..which is to keep a stable system in place when engineering.
For example, no one can tell you want an electron is. They have a description for it, and a sht-ton of mathematical games in relation to everything else... but no one can tell you what one is. (and some say that at the bottom of it all, it’s all electrons) We have a self completed bubble we live in. Right at the edge of science in the micro to macro edges, it’s all unknowns. And the old rules and regulations are subject to change in the face of the new data, whatever that data might be.
If you go the edges of the considered world, from the quantum to the macro..it is still....turtles...all the way down.
Not even remotely a joke.
We exist in a bubble, where we’ve self factualized a reality into a commonality of realization and analysis, but, it is very much a case of nothing more than that bubble of common ramblings.
Music and recommending recordings (mostly jazz but some classical as well) have been a staple on this thread for quite some time and I'm glad for it. What more can be said regarding the fuses (pro or con) that wasn't stated 80 pages ago? As the OP (Frank) has noted, there're many music lovers participating on this thread. Shadorne thanks for the Grusin recommendation.
Homage to Duke by Dave Grusin is a fantastic recording.
BTW - since when did this thread become about Jazz recordings? Did I miss something in the way fuser’s logic is fused? Like the way fuser's think that extreme sensitivity to fuses and possibly other extraneous factors means their equipment performance is exceptionally good?
LOL,George, come on my audiogon brother! for goodness sake, appreciate the satire. . This is why the post by the other George (jetter) was so on the mark in its summation and humorous characterization. There is a clear distinction between Al as compared to Georgehifi and Wolf. I rest my case.
Ha! I should have known better than to use humorous parody to chide a naysayer. Hard to get a laugh from those devoid of a sense of humor. Measure 50 times and cut once GeorgieLoFi.
Carry on ...
Frank
PS: I have another review of an outstanding jazz recording I'd like to share with the group. Do I have your permission to proceed GeorgieLoFi?
oregonpapa There are a few of us who have been given the full rundown on WHY these fuses work the magic they do. The problem is, we have been instructed to not tell you and Wolfie. Sorry.
Really!!! this smells, if you have been "ordered" that we are to be left in the dark, then please tell the full "secret" rundown why these magic fuses work to others who are privileged, almarg ect. Let them see if it’s all smoke and mirrors. I will concede and become a believer if someone with electronic knowledge like almarg says it correct, even without knowing the "full rundown".
Once again this is all fusers need to know. All potential fusers need to remember that fuses deteriorate with age from switch on surges (as pictured), and they just need to be replaced with good quality $2 fuse of the same value, as Almarg linked to.
Sorry but have to decline that request! As every time voodoo is repetitively presented about these >$100 fuses by fusers, I and hopefully others with even a small amount of technical knowledge will continue to counter it with with our views, and I believe we have the right to do so.
I've discovered over the many years in this hobby that not everyone is into it for the music. I've seen mega-buck systems where the owner has a limited amount of music ... and most of that is considered to be "audiophile" type recordings. Lots of Patricia Barber floating about these systems. I'm not sure what these folks are thinking or what they're really into other than the equipment.
Most of my audiophile friends have thousands of records and CD's and are always searching for more. Same here. It just seems that the longer one is in the hobby the wider one's musical taste becomes. So ... we are always on the lookout for additional music by new-found artists. It was like that when I had a Dyna Stereo 70 and Dyna Pas pre-amp based system and its the same today. The better equipment (including upgraded fuses) just gets us closer to the music and the actual event.
And speaking of recordings, somewhere along the pathway one discovers that the recording itself is the important element. After all, its the "source," right? So, with that in mind, my friends and I are always on the lookout for superior recordings, some of which, were recorded a long time ago ... and can blow away most of the so-called Audiophile recordings of today.
A good example was a CD that my friend Robert brought over the other night. Its a compilation of jazz vocalists and was given away by Brooks Brother's clothiers as a spiff to their customers. Buy a shirt and tie and you get the CD. lol* Its so well recorded I swear that its a direct transfer from the master tapes. A nice thrift store find by Robert for a dollar.
And George stop calling us fusers we all have many other parts of our systems we love and are proud of its not just about the fuses. Oh and don't forget about music either.
Good Lord George PLEASE give it a rest How many times have you now made exactly the same statement? Do you seriously think constant repetition will make EVERYBODY bow under the pressure and just agree that is all there is to it? Lets face it this is a never ending debate with two opposing sides who will not be reconcilled,...lol. No offense meant at all but it is getting a little old to see the same thing every 20 posts or so...old saying..if you have nothing to say then say nothing.....
Such a strong and relentless stance has been taken there’s no way one could ever concede these fuses have any redeeming qualities at all. Negative expectation bias in full glory.
Only with pointing those to spend >$100 + on a fuse when the same result can be had by spending $2, because of the original possibly being an "aged" fuse.
This is all fusers need to know. All potential fusers need to remember that fuses deteriorate with age from switch on surges (as pictured), and they just need to be replaced with good quality $2 fuse of the same value, as Almarg linked to.
^^^ There have been those who expressed grave concern as to where we spend our money though. Same people who want to dictate what is discussed in this thread. ... NO music appreciation posts allowed I guess. Totalitarians are totalitarians ... no matter where they land.
Charles ...
I have a four-CD collection of Charlie Ventura's band. I went through the collection this morning. Included is the entire Pasadena Civic concert with Vido Musso, Conti Condoli and Jackie & Roy. Primitive sound, but historic and fun. I have the LP jacket but not the vinyl. Check out the cool jacket:
Frank, Thanks for the confirmation, 2 bars into the song and I thought to myself, that's Dexter 😊
Thanks Al I really appreciate your comment.
Geoff, I don't believe that the cost of upgrade fuses is the primary issue with those who doubt them. Such a strong and relentless stance has been taken there's no way one could ever concede these fuses have any redeeming qualities at all. Negative expectation bias in full glory. But hey, that's okay. Charles
The sax player on cut 16 of the Christmas jazz CD is indeed Dexter Gordon. :-)
Jetter ...
What a creative overview of this thread. Creativity + a pinch of exaggeration + a pinch of sarcasm - all doing a dance around a lot of truth = great humor.
And speaking of "The Doctor," I miss David Pritchard. He added a lot to this site. A true gentleman all the way.
David ... if you're lurking, know that you're missed here.
nonoise The consensus on the use of alternative fuses in audio will never be reconciled here. What I’d like to know is if anyone has replaced the fuse in their TV and did the picture/image improve. If so, then all can be laid to rest and we can move on from here.
Actually, aside from from the usual nattering nabobs of negativity the results of users of aftermarket fuses has been remarkably consistent, not only here on this thread but on every single fuse thread on this and other audio forums ever since aftermarket fuses were introduced to blushing naive audiophiles almost 20 years ago. Lead, follow or get out of the way. 😛 And now with the $9 Gold Rhodium Nano Deluxe fuse from Create Audio even cheap uber skeptics can find out what the hoopla is all about.
The consensus on the use of alternative fuses in audio will never be reconciled here. What I'd like to know is if anyone has replaced the fuse in their TV and did the picture/image improve. If so, then all can be laid to rest and we can move on from here.
Picture quality improvement can, at the very least, be seen, if not measured, by anyone. If the fuse in the TV serves no more nobler purpose than that of an amp (or source) and the picture quality improves, than it follows that there is an improvement in audio gear and it's just that we're not up to the ability to measure it yet.
I know, from personal experience, that a power cord upgrade improved the picture on my Plasma by a noticeable margin. As skinny as TVs are getting, they'll always have a decent PC on them in my house, looks be damned. It's just too daunting for me to take apart my TV but if someone already did, and replaced the fuse inside for a better one, I'd like to know what the outcome was.
I also know that if the TV picture improves the debate will turn to whether it's enough to warrant the cost of the fuse but that is an entirely different kettle of fish.
A fuse can have a significant effect on the sound of an audio system when that fuse melts. Suddenly, no sound. All fuses that hew to proper ratings, and are made by reputable companies (Littelfuse…been around forever, their stuff is first class), do the same thing…contain tiny wires in either fast or slow blow configurations, and somehow manage to NOT degrade anything in any meaningful way in countless piles of well sorted gear ("Marge, back away from the Magicos, I think the fuse in the Diavelet is degrading!"), regardless of what Paul McGowan might believe (they "can" lead to better sound? Not exactly a ringing endorsement...And exactly HOW do they do that, Paul?). You may be led to believe they do improve everything by reading posts loaded with astonishing claims and ZERO explanations of why they do a better job and that's fine for some, but In the face of the hype and my own experience with SR fuses, I simply call baloney. Also, blind testing, the suggestion of which does strike fear into the meek Faithful, isn't useful for all things but for this would at least be interesting and the results could be ignored if they rocked anybody's emotional boat. However, unless the "break in" instantly wears off when a Magic Fuse is removed and replaced by a less precious fuse back and forth in such a test, I bet it the results would be very revealing.
"...a fuse CAN'T effect (affect) sonics? Why not? Doesn't AC quality do so? Don't quality power cords do so? Why not the spot where all that AC current is condensed into a frail wire designed to disintegrate upon too much amperage? If that's not the weak link, what is?
You all miss the point - including Wolf. Anything could indeed affect sonics if equipment is badly designed or poorly maintained or malfunctioning.
A power supply is supposed to be designed to provide clean power to the audio line signal and amplification and processing circuits. A great power supply design should NOT be affected by simple differences in a fuse under normal operating conditions and if said fuses are both adequately specified.
Audio equipment should be designed to amplify and preserve the detail quality of the AUDIO signal (low S/N, low distortion etc.) under normal operating conditions (includes significant variations in A/C power during the day as well as from location to location). This includes replacing the fuse!
Audio equipment should NOT be designed to amplify minuscule differences in a fuse or an infinite number of other extraneous factors (room temperature, humidity, vibration etc.) Just look at all the isolation and various designs to minimize vibration pick up and rumble from a turntable!!! A great turntable minimizes distortion from the pick up of extraneous vibration a poorly designed or malfunctioning turntable picks up too much vibrations.
Faulty or poorly designed equipment or poorly executed equipment setups are the reason a mere fuse can make a huge difference.
So there is No Can't - anything is possible in this crazy boutique world of high end audio - only there should Not be big differences in fuses on excellent equipment.
Thanks just the same Lloydc, but I think it wise to throw your negative results out along with Wolfman and Mapman. Just like negative results with cables. They’re just outliers in the overall scheme of things and can be ignored. No offense to you personally. Hey, speaking of Mapman, whatever has become of him?
I tried fancy fuses, and thought I heard an improvement. When I put back glass Littlefuses, some time later, I heard no difference. The conclusions were obvious; I'm with Wolfie, Al and others.
Presumably, every person on this thread has experimented with fuses for themselves, and come to their own personal conclusions. Just like with wires.
Every pair of ears, room, system and component varies. Systems even change with the time of day and warmup time. Too many variables. We can share experiences and opinions and advice, but with audio, "explanations" are only occasionally meaningful or confirmable.
Gee, I was wondering when Double Blind Testing would raise it's ugly head. And lookie who raised it, the guy who doesn't understand what the word "sweet" means in audio terminology. The Wolfman. Of course everyone knows by now raising the spectre of Double Blind Tests is the last resort of the died in the wool pseudo skeptic. When all else fails casually drop the hint that Double Blind Tests would certainly win the day for the pseudo skepics. As if.
Wolf, you keep insisting that a fuse CAN'T effect sonics? Why not? Doesn't AC quality do so? Don't quality power cords do so? Why not the spot where all that AC current is condensed into a frail wire designed to disintegrate upon too much amperage? If that's not the weak link, what is? Al just posted that he doesn't doubt fuses can make a difference in many cases and Paul McGowen of PS Audio expresses his beliefs that improving fuses can lead to improved sound on his site. Two people that I respect their immense electrical/audio knowledge. You on the other hand fly in the face of such knowledge and insist that a properly working fuse CAN'T effect sonics. It would be interesting to learn what it is that you know that apparently no one else does. If you'd rather respond with silliness, that's your prerogative but I'd seriously be interested in your explanation.
Fuses are exactly the right size to do what they're supposed to do, work perfectly at this in zillions of applications, and "Special Fuses" are the same size as non special fuses, except SRs maybe since they might contain smaller wire that sometimes mysteriously blows.
A fuse is certainly a weak point or limiting portion of the power supply. Try building the whole supply with tiny thin wire the gauge of a fuse and see how she sounds. Yes an exaggerated statement. Yes it is a weak link right? Can we agree on that? Seems obvious, but perhaps I am too simple minded as I know I am amongst some pretty bright folks on this thread.
I don't buy the argument that the span of wire is too short to make a difference. It does based on actual listening results. Seems this is the exact point of which this entire thread is debating.
Oregonpapa, I have found this to be the most interesting thread in the 16 years of my reading A'gon. It has had it all. 1. People accusing others of being shills for SR. 2. The only person who I really thought might be a shill ended up being a doctor, who really loves his mom. And I still wonder about him shill wise. 3. Tons of audiophiles claiming the fuses improve their systems beyond belief without having a clue why. 4. Lots of people wondering if in fact the audiophiles in number 3 above want to be part of something so much that they are imagining changes. 5. The bad bad guy George 6. The medium bad guy who is no longer to be seen here mapman. 7. The really good bad guy Al. 8. The affable ex salesman who started it all (mr papa). 9. An ex NASA guy whose main role other than to discuss wire directionality is not exactly clear. 10. Bees vs graphene. 11. Highly resolving systems costing megabucks that can make the difference clear versus the obviously cheap systems that cannot. 12. The oft quoted mantra that with the 30 day return policy what do you have to lose. The antagonist stating that having to go up in fuse amp ratings you probably will lose your house when it burns down.
I hate to say this, but I have to agree with Geoff, it was the back and forth that has made this so interesting. It is likely that without the dissenters this thread would have dried up long ago. That is not meant to diminish this excellent thread at all, just that you can only say how great a fuse is so many times in so many ways.
Thanks again Oregonpapa and I hope you see the humor in it. George
When Almarg notes he's influenced by the opinions sited here, I think, hey, this isn't the "magic fuses don't do anything" crowd, it's the "I have sensitive ears and spent the money on special fuses and think they work" forum. Biased? Who knew? I also don't think people here read his posts carefully enough as much of his valid sensibilities that inject technological expertise into the stream are glossed over since he's not a reactionary provocateur like I seem to be. I'd bet my lunch money that blind testing, the silver bullet to mythology vampires, would reveal a lot as far as the Fuser vs Magic Tweak Deniers conversations go. That said:
If a fuse is working properly it doesn’t or can’t have any effect on the sonics of the device. If it’s not working for some reason (manufactured on a Wednesday, utilizing unfortunately moldy beeswax, being disconnected early from a Tesla zillion volt treatment due to a lunch break), I imagine it’s the fuse connection that’s causing the electrons to be bruising their tiny selves by trying to squeeze through ("Imagine" is the key concept in these discussions). Fuses aren’t inherently a "weak" link as even the copper bar analogy (or apparent test) simply implies that the AC gets through to power supplies and other bits to do exactly what it would do anyway. I ain't fallin' for the "obviously better" part, but then I'm afraid to remove my fuses to try it out…don't wanna blow my "class d" rookie system up. This may not make sense to some, but remember, it comes from somebody who doesn’t know what "sweet" treble is…higher calorie? Less squeaky? Old reed on the sax? Old strings on the Telecaster? I can learn much from geoffkait…maybe I should order a bag of magic pebbles. On another note, I'm recommending a recording that sounds Real Good…Jim Campilongo's "Jim Campilongo and Honeyfingers Last Night This Morning." Got it from Jim when I worked with him recently and was blown away at the sonics (and the music) from this 180 gram vinyl version…it has sweet treble…I think...
Thanks Al, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't think it was at least possible fuses couldn't improve sound, I only called upon you because those that keep saying it isn't possible won't answer and I knew you would provide an informative and balanced answer. While I have experienced sonic benefits from the SR black fuses I can appreciate others didn't but can't understand their insistence that there's no possibility they could.
Mac48025, I have said on multiple occasions that I don’t doubt that a fuse can make a difference in many cases. With that opinion being based in large part on the many user experiences that have been reported here. Beyond that, my views were summarized in my post in this thread dated 1-20-2017, and I can’t offer anything more in answer to your question.
"Simply asserting that a fuse may be a weak link in some way is not an explanation that would be viewed as meaningful by the court of electrical engineering. Which is not to say that a ruling by that court is definitive. It is to say, however, that the proffered explanation is not definitive either, or even meaningful."
But this is not the court of electrical engineering. Unless we to believe that you are the self imposed Judge Judy of the court of electrical engineering. As to whether the explanations proffered are definitive or meaningful it depends on which explanation your referring to. If you are referring to my explanation, I submit it’s both definitive AND meaningful. As well as sufficient to explain the results. Could this go all the way to the Supreme Court?
moreover, anything in the audio system that can be improved is by definition a weak link. If there are five fuses in the system there are five weak links. Of course there are in fact many weak links in ANY audio system, not just fuses.
something’s going on and you don’t know what it is, do you Mr. Jones? By the way Mr. Jones is a pinboy and he wears suspenders.
While I have no problem with those few that don't believe SR black fuses can improve the sound in our audio systems I would like them to answer a simple question I've asked three previous times on this thread without an answer. Maybe I can prevail upon almarg to do so.
Since the fuse is the weakest link in the AC pathway, is it not possible that some improvement....whether it's better conductivity or more EMI/RFI shielding.......could improve the sound of a component? It's not just my assertion that it would but Paul McGowens' of PS Audio also. It seems to me it's at least a possibility. Please tell me why Paul McGowen and I are wrong in thinking so. Thanks.
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