I installed a SR RED Quantum fuse in my ARC REF-3 preamp a few days ago, replacing an older high end fuse. Uhh ... for a hundred bucks, this little baby is well worth the cost. There was an immediate improvement upon installation, but now that its broken in (yes, no kidding), its quite remarkable. A tightening of the focus, a more solid image, and most important of all for my tastes, a deeper appreciation for the organic sound of the instruments. Damn! ... cellos sound great! Much improved attack on pianos. More humanistic on vocals. Bowed bass goes down forever. Next move? .... I'm doing the entire system with these fuses. One at a time though just to gauge the improvement in each piece of equipment. The REF-75se comes next. I'll report the results as the progression takes place. Stay tuned ...
Any comments from anyone else who has tried these fuses?
Pair of Blacks are on the way for my PerfectWave II DAC/pre. You guys are killing me. I hate you. :-)
Having never upgraded a fuse from stock, guess for me on this: ought a black sound better than stock, right out of the box? Also, ought a black in the "wrong" direction sound better than stock?
Pair of Blacks are on the way for my PerfectWave II DAC/pre. You guys are killing me. I hate you. :-)
Having never upgraded a fuse from stock, guess for me on this: ought a black sound better than stock, right out of the box? Also, ought a black in the "wrong" direction sound better than stock?
Time shall tell!
Rear to front is the correct fuse installation direction.
The SR Black will sound way better right out of the box over the stock fuse. What you will notice is a hard edge to things, especially strings. You may not like the initial effect ... but just hang in there, be patient, and at around 70 hours, you will be rewarded with musicality and a sound stage that you didn't think possible in your system.
Aren't fuse holders made from less exotic materials that can mitigate the benefits these fuses? The tiny bit of treated metal that comprises the alleged mojo of SR and other "fuse-exotica" runs right into less exotic wire also…this is a huge part of my head scratching about these fuses, as well as my wondering how much improvement they actually provide when reading claims that seem over the top even for this crowd. I don't own any of these fuses since they seem ridiculously over priced (they should cost about $1.83…maybe), and I'm not convinced they can really do anything "special" in spite of the unbridled enthusiasm…it simply looks like a cult of appreciation from those who spent the bucks and really really want to hear the mojo.
In my opinion it will be clearly better than the stock fuses immediately. Without question the Black fuses improve with the accumulation of hours. Just leave your digital components on 24/7 for 3 to 4 days. They certainly seems to improve at minimum up to around the first 100 hours or so. It's easy and convenient to do this with the digital components. I believe that you'll be very happy with the SR Black fuses. Charles,
Hi everyone, just talked to Ray Muchler, the service department manager there at krell, whom is one of many I've had a long relationship with for year's, talked about my modified krell 700cx, the four fuses inside are agc 1 amp fast blow fuses, agc- meaning, the big fuses, he also stressed strongly to stay with same value with the fuses, these are low current fuses for the amplifier he said, part of the power supply, so, do you guys believe I will get the same leaps and bounds of quality sound considering this application is entirely different than any body's here?
Hey, welcome back to the SR thread. Here's the deal wolf ... for the Doubting Thomas' and the Debbie Downers, SR is offering a 30 day return policy. So ... why not try the fuses out and see for yourself? If you don't like them, other than shipping them back, it won't cost you a dime. If you experience what the rest of us have experienced, then you'd be much further ahead, right? Come on man ... take that plunge into audio nirvana. I DARE YOU!!! :-)
I think you are going to hear a significant difference with the audio grade fuses. I have a feeling that Krell is going to really open up and reach it's full potential. I look forward to your report. Please replace the fuses after the amp has been off a short while to prevent an unnecessary blow fuse.
Frank (Oregonpapa ), I want to publicly give you much credit for initiating this thread topic. It is approaching 700 responses and overwhelming the attitude and behavior here has been very courteous, mature and informative. Given the the way many threads on forums inevitably deteriorate and lose their value, this one is an obvious contrast. The large number of people who have posted their positive listening experiences with the SR Red and Black fuses is truly inspiring. Frank, you've made many music lovers aware of a fantastic audio product that is also very affordable and within reach of many .
I'm a person who enjoyed my audio system immensely. The introduction of these fuses into my system has simply increased my music listening pleasure yet further, I'm grateful for that. Frank, this terrific thread you started has made numerous folks very happy and appreciative. Given the way, things are going, I believe that more will be added to this ever expanding list. Charles,
Thank you so much Charles. Your input is very much appreciated.
I've been in this hobby for over 40 years and rarely does one find a major cost effective improvement such as that afforded by these simple fuses. When I took the plunge and bought the first Red fuse, I was so taken by the improvement that I just had to share it with like minded people.
You're right ... usually threads like this get hijacked by naysayers and just negative people. Very immature to say the least. Awhile back, Synergistic Research put this entire thread on their Facebook page .. for the entire free world to see. Thanks to you, and many others posting here, all attempts at hijacking have failed miserably. Its remained positive and informative ... not to mention, a lot of fun. New friends have been made as well. I say ... welcome to audiophiles all over the planet to the SR fuses.
And now ... I go to the living room to enjoy this evenings listening session.
Hoping my black fuse shows up tomorrow. Had a red on my old arc amp. Believe it or not I can hear the amount of haze the stock fuse bid introducing. It must be gone. They make the sound truly sound like wax paper by comparison. If you use the clean glass analogy, it's like cleaning an already "thought to be clean" mirror. There may not be any obvious smudges, but it's obvious once it's cleaned, the gleam and sparkle is obviously increased, giving a more true, 3d image of the reflection. The postman better have something good tomorrow! Lol
Once the Black fuse is broken in ... there is no "glass." :-)
On last night's listening session: I started out with an album (CD) of Kenny Burrell's "Bluesy Burrell" with Coleman Hawkins.
Oh my! When Coleman Hawkins first enters the scene it was Hawkins' big, fat, reedy, romantic, bluesy tenor sax filling the room. Dang, that man could play. Tonight, I'm going to throw on some Ben Webster and try to dodge his spittle. *lol*
We audiophiles have heard the old saying many times throughout the years ... but here it is again ... What I'm experiencing at this point with these fuses is an entirely new music collection.
Step one, confirm that "slow blow" would not be the better choice. Step two, call SR in CA. They have been great help to me in the past, and will surely treat you fairly. Lastly, in which sequence did you power up the Ayre?
Frank, "Bluesy Burrell" is beautiful music that was recorded well back in the early 1960s. I originally had the album and subsequently bought the CD, I play it often. Another excellent pairing of Kenny Burrell and Coleman Hawkins is "The Hawk Relaxes " on the Prestige label. Again exce
If you confirmed the correct fuse type and value with the device maker and bought that fuse from a fuse dealer, and the fuse blows, I do not think you have any recourse with the fuse dealer if they choose to not replace it.
The reason is that these are fuses. Fuses are SAFETY AND PROTECTION DEVICES. You have to be prepared to replace one when it blows for any reason. It goes with the turf in the case of fuses.
Yes, fuse dealer makes a hefty profit likely and could afford to replace a blown fuse here and there but no fuse dealer is obligated to replace a fuse if it blows. Its what fuses do!!!!!
So if one is not happy I'd say find another fuse dealer whose properly spec'ed fuses do not blow when it seems they should not.
The cost of replacing expensive fuses when they blow is a topic worth some discussion I think. Its a normal thing to expect that some fuses will blow over time for whatever reason and have to be replaced. You might find a nice fancy fuse dealer willing to replace some to some extent but its not reasonable I would say to expect that.
If the cost of replacing blown expensive fuses becomes a problem for anyone, then I'd say you need to find an alternative. There are many high quality commercial fuses out there for not very much certainly in comparison. That's why 99.999999999% of the world does not use high priced fuses.
If the sound quality benefits justify the normal total cost of ownership of expensive fuses over time, then no problem. Its the typical high end audiophile dilemma, optimize sound quality for higher cost or not.
It would seem to me that if there is any question regarding the current rating of a fuse, a maker would lean in the direction of safety and have the fuse blow sooner rather than later. Sooner is safer. Later is riskier.
If fuse does not blow and equipment gets damaged, then the maker has a potential legal and liability problem.
if fuse blows sooner than perhaps it should, then not only is that safer and normal for a fuse but fuse must be replaced meaning more sales and revenue.
Sound like a nice business to be in as long as one plays it safe....
I agree with sgordon1 ... call SR in California and see if they can help you out. You are the first one to have reported a problem. I've done business with highend-audio with no problems at all. They happily took my last two SR Red fuses back in exchange for two SR Black fuses with me paying the addition cost of the Black fuses. No questions asked.
Keep in mind that now that you've reported a problem on this thread, which was the correct thing to do, you are somewhat obligated to follow up with the rest of us as to your results in getting it resolved. Hopefully, you'll have some positive results to report.
As mapman said though ... there is no obligation for anyone to make a blown fuse good.
I have found that the Synergistic fuses to be quite touchy and will blow quicker than many other fuses of the same value. I was told that they are held to a more exact value than others. In fact AA advised me to get a slightly larger value when using Synergistic fuses.
To further clarify Synergistic Research Dealer: Alfred Kainz," highend- electronics.com". Apple Valley, California. Look under tweeks on the Audiogon for" sale page".
Jon, sorry that you’ve experienced this issue. I have no particular suggestions beyond what Sgordon1 has said (although you indicated that you’ve already performed step 1 of his suggestions), but the following may have some relevance:
I took a look at the detailed technical info for the 0.25A 250V 5x20mm fast blow fuses manufactured by Littelfuse, one of the leading makers of non-audiophile fuses. Interestingly, they offer at least four different series of fuses of that specific type, designed to various combinations of UL, IEC, and other standards, which have "nominal melting points" (defining the combination of current and time that will cause the fuse to blow) ranging from 0.0166 amps squared-seconds to 0.042 amps squared-seconds. That’s a difference of a factor of 2.5, even though all of those fuses are from a single manufacturer and all are 5x20mm fast blow fuses rated at 0.25A 250V.
If the stock 0.25A 250V 5x20mm fast blow fuses in your amp are rated at or near the upper end of that 0.0166 to 0.042 range, and the unspecified rating of the SR fuse is at or near (or even below) the lower end of that range, it would certainly seem to account for what happened. If you call SR, you might ask them if they can tell you what the nominal melting point of that fuse is, in amps squared-seconds.
One would hope Synergistic will do something to help out in a case like this. It is an expensive experiment for someone and not user fault if apparent correct fuse blows unexpectedly. One the right fuse is found, should not be a common occurrence anymore I would hope.
"It is far, far from my intention to cast a pall on SR product, as I've greatly enjoyed tweaks for my setup over the years and was very much looking forward to this one, and it's not in my nature to be a downer on something so fun for all of us."
The main function of a fuse is to provide protection. I'm inclined to agree with Mapman and Ozzy in that the SR fuses could be made to err on the side of being perhaps more sensitive and easily blown(Al's example of specification range). Better to sacrifice the fuse rather than damage the components. It seems that the SR protects with a quick trigger in addition to sounding far superior to the stock fuse. Charles,
Its really not possible for anyone other than vendor to generalize accurately . Anything is possible including shorter triggers by design or for other reasons.
For these prices in particular you’d hope that the vendors would be as happy to fix an obvious problem in matching fuse to component at the outset and not alienate customers. These aren’t your everyday 50 cents a pack fuses.
Its funny thinking that many years ago selling hundreds if not thousands of fuses at Radio Shack and Lafayette radio I do not recall ever a case where customer demanded blown fuses be replaced for no charge. For pennies a fuse buying new fuses until the right one was found was not an issue.
No discussions about how fuses "sounded" back then either though I always preferred slow blow with more substantial filaments if an option. Simper times.
The only reason fuse sound is discussed now is there's a relative yardstick for comparison. What ever level of sound quality provided with a stock fuse the premium fuses are so much improved, you cannot ignore the vast difference. There's a reason the response to this thread has been overwhelming positive by so many people. Just use them and listen, their impact is self evident. Charles,
This is not the first time I’ve heard about synergistic research fuses blowing like this, Almarg’s post is spot on, you see, I’ve never said to anyone here on this thread before, but I have talked to audiophiles about the red fuse since their conception into the marketplace, I also have personally spoken to Ted Deny-founder-designer of nearly all product’s there at synergistic research, as I recall, Ted told me to go slightly higher value on the fuses on the phone, his reasoning was exactly what Almarg posted, I never had a reason to divulge this information before, everyone was enjoying their products without no remorse till now, I will also add that most audiophile’s likely can not get Ted Deny on the phone, I was very fortunate to do so, the entire reason I spoke to Ted was reported fuses blowing a couple years back, so I’ve known about this for quite awhile.
My REF250 specification is a 7A Slo-Blo but since SR RED doesn't offer that size, so been using a 6.3A Slo-Blo. Now waiting for my 5 SR BLACK from theCableCo. Hmm!
Jon, it seems you could pin the problem down for both SR and Ayre by getting all four versions of the ,25A Littlefield fuses for next to nothing and see what blows and what doesn't. If none blow, then SR probably has anot issue.. If some do and some don't then SR and/or Ayre would know how to be more specific about their products.
Since you're without fault, someone owes you restitution, and the tests would help make your case and assign probable cause.
As for the SR Black, my results were so obvious that I've ordered one for an old Classe CA-300 that I'm giving to my new-son-in-law just to give him a better product even though he's no audiophile. Curious that we've seen so few theories on what is happening electrically.
Maybe lesson learned is Slo-Blo has larger tolerance so safer to roll than a Fast-Blo unless one is willing to roll the dice.
Another thought is audiophile fuses is anything not from the manufacturer. A Bussmann is definitely a safer bet than one from Ace Hardware with unknown origin. In Audiophile world, both are non audiophile fuses.
Jon, if you choose to pursue Electroslacker's suggestion, you can order the Littelfuse fuses I referred to from the industrial electronics distributor Digikey, via this link. As you'll see in the listing, though, only the 0.0166 and 0.04 amps squared-seconds fuses are stocked. The intermediate value fuses (0.024 and 0.032) and also the 0.042 fuse are special order.
I believe that Digikey doesn't impose any minimum dollar requirement for an order, and as you can see in the listing all of the fuses other than the 0.042 (which isn't necessary, if you get the 0.04 fuse) can be ordered in quantities as small as 1.
I also checked distributors Newark Electronics and Mouser Electronics, but they too don't stock the intermediate values, at least for fuses made by Littelfuse.
It seems to me that there is always a risk when using an audiophile fast blow fuse in an amplifier, since the "nominal melting point" is unknown (compared to major fuse manufacturers who publish their specs).
With amps that use a slow blow fuse, the very nature of said fuse allows for a brief period of over-current. It seems like less risk to use an audiophile fuse with unknown specs. Provided that the fuse being used has the correct rating specified by the manufacturer.
@audiolabyrinth, IYE, were the SR fuses that blew prematurely fast blow fuses or were there reports of all SR fuses blowing?
Contact SR. They will see that the dealer from whom you bought your fuses will refund your money. You won't be out any cash. But please, once its been resolved to your satisfaction, come back here and post the positive results.
The SR fuses have been a genuine boon for the vast majority of us who have converted over to them. It would be a shame if one experience from a customer with a non compliant amp would dissuade anyone else from trying them. In this entire thread, there have been two who felt they didn't make an improvement in their Maggies ... and one failure in an Ayre AX-5 amp. Everyone else is raving about them.
And by the way, Diana Krall was sitting in my lap tonight asking me to peel her a grape. :-)
Lowrider57, I'm not sure which type was blowing, fast or slow, I highly recommend going .1, .2, .3, no higher than .25 over stock fuse value, , these slightly higher values are in my opinion within range of protecting the given equipment that the fuses reside within, most anomalies that could happen will be far greater than these slightly higher fuse values, so, in general, your equipment investment's will be fully protected in my opinion.
"joncourage ...
Contact SR. They will see that the dealer from whom you bought your fuses will refund your money. You won't be out any cash. But please, once its been resolved to your satisfaction, come back here and post the positive results."
Oregonpapa... Are you affiliated with SR? That reply sure does seem like it.
^^^ Affiliated? No. I'm a satisfied customer who has been around the business community longer than most of you have been wiping your noses.
I did what joncourage should have done in the first place and what any astute consumer would have done. Rather than complain here in this forum and disrupt a perfectly positive (with a few exceptions) 15 page thread about a terrific product, what he should have done when the suppler failed to satisfy his complaint, was to simply call, or write, to the manufacturer FIRST in an attempt to get satisfaction to what he considered to be defective fuses.
Look, if you were to have a gripe with a real estate agent, would you immediately write to the editor of the local newspaper with your complaint? Would you go to the State Real Estate Commissioner and file a complaint?Or would you simply drop by the real estate office and have a chat with the owner/broker FIRST?
SR has a Facebook page.
Here ... I got this contact information right off of SR's Facebook page. It took no longer than a few minutes to find it:
I had a Red and Black fuse blow back to back in my DAC upon installation and power up. Luckily the dealer took them back. Otherwise I'd be out of $200 without even an audition.
I don’t like to draw any conclusions before all the facts are in but so far this appears to be just a lot of who shot John, with the usual suspects all lined up trying to punch holes in the whole aftermarket fuse balloon, as is their wont. It’s not like aftermarket fuses are anything new, what is it like twenty years? yet the pessimism and uber skepticism doth persist. True or false, all the skeptics are very content and happy with their systems and have no desire whatsoever to try and coax that last 5% performance out of their systems? :-)
^^^ Exactly geoffkait ... even if they are offered a spare Red fuse FOR FREE!!!!
Isn't it interesting how the naysayers come right back out from the shadows the very moment someone has a problem with his quirky amp that was saved from being blown to smithereens by a fuse that did its job?
What more can a person do to make a point other than to offer his spare fuse to a member for free, including shipping ... or to resolve joncourage's problem for him, then supply him the contact information for SR?
Personally, I'm sick and tired of trolls who try to tear the seams of everyone's dreams. (Hey, wasn't there a song to that effect?) :-)
In the meantime, my system is sounding terrific. Its never sounded better. And, I'm looking forward to the next SR Black fuse that will be going into the ARC REF-75se.
Oh yes, and on the subject of ARC ... we find the same naysayers in every thread started regarding ARC products too. What's up with these guys? Envy? Jealousy? Dark hearts? Someone kicked their cat? What????
I'd look at the fuses that work and see if they have a T inscribed on the end, or have a spiral wire instead of a straight element. If either are true, they are likely slow blow. I found this, but can't vouch for its correctness: "If the fuse is in the loudspeaker circuit, ie, in series with the loudspeaker as a load, then it needs to tolerate occasional overloads, but open on continued overload - so, medium slow blow. If the fuse is in series with a transistorised power supply's pass transistor, then it needs to be a very fast blow. If the fuse is in the mains input lead before any power supply unit, then it needs to sustain the start-up current required to charge the main filter capacitors - so, slow blow."
Your welcome Lowrider57, electroslacker, great post, you gave me a detailed explanation as to why I have the large 1-amp fast blow ×4 fuses in my krell 700cx, you said-If the fuse is in series with a transistorised power supply’s pass transistor, then it needs to be a very fast blow., however, I’m still going to go with .2 .3 .25 higher, lol! , I would be like a zombie around the house if my fuses blew up, in the world of high end audio, $520.00 is not a lot of money, but fuses, mmm, yes it is! , you should have heard Ray Muchler’s-the service manager voice change in tone their at krell when I told him the cost of the fuses on the phone, let’s just say he thought I was crazy, but hey, what’s new? , most people believe all audiophiles are.
Black fuse due here tomorrow. Can't wait, got the red in the preamp, and two furutechs in the CD player. Maybe a set of blacks for the CD player would do me well.... First things first. Let's try the black in the power amp first. Mail can't get here fast enough. M
A change from the Reds to the Black in the CD player was huge. Had a hard edge and lost musicality to begin with .. but WOW, when the Black finally broke in, it was simply a revelation.
I was listening to a jazz CD last night that featured the playing of a Hammond B-3 organ. That was the best reproduced B-3 I've ever heard in my system. Sooo real.
Got the Blacks for my DAC/pre in the mail yesterday. VH Audio shipped fast. Out of the box, the sound was a little muddy and indistinct. After about six hours, I had a listening session. The mud was gone and leading edges of horn notes had a nice bark to them, but overall I felt I was lacking the harmonic and overtone development that I had enjoyed with (burned-in) stock fuses.
I still retain great hope that these things will rebound with burn-in. I won't be able to listen again until Tuesday night, at which point we'll have about 125 hours.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
