Surge protector

I should point out that blackouts are potential causes of surges, both when the power gets disconnected and when the power is restored.  As a child in Atlanta we lost many appliances when power came back on.

I will say that so far in my life I have NEVER experienced any type of surge activity that damaged any of my components, and once upon a time I never even used to unplug my gear during thunderstorm activity--I was happily oblivious.

@jea48

I think this may very well be location dependent. Living in SC, I randomly asked a few people who are NOT techno or audiophiles if they’ve lost equipment to power surges and everyone I asked had. One both in the Berkshires and in South Carolina.

I’ve lost gear or been present when gear went bad half a dozen times in my life. In the last 3 years alone I’ve lost a laptop (plugged in directly) and a cable modem to surges. When I moved in there was in fact a burnt out surge protector still screwed into an outlet, presumably where a TV had been. I lose power about 4x a year due to storms, plus we have about 3 power incidents per year not related to storms when the power goes out or my UPS on my computer has to intervene or my Furman shuts the power off to the stereo or both.

The differences in experience based on geographic location certainly justifies why readers may or may not wish to spend the money for the extra protection. I 100% understand that. What I don’t understand are those who only focus on direct strikes, cause that’s rarely been how I lost gear.

The discussion on this got me to dragging my feet.  I did go to Furman's site and I do see that Sweet Water is an authorized dealer, so I think I am going to call them and order a PST-8 from them, and it will be better protection than what I have now, which is no surge protection.

I will say that so far in my life I have NEVER experienced any type of surge activity that damaged any of my components, and once upon a time I never even used to unplug my gear during thunderstorm activity--I was happily oblivious. 

But there is a first time for everything.  I used to eat six raw eggs a day, and when someone told me about raw egg salmonella  I scoffed at that person.  I told him that I must have ate ten thousand raw eggs and never suffered so much as an upset stomach.  But then I thought about it soime more, and I decided that as many raw eggs as I had consumed in my life, I was probably due to get a bad one.  So I don't do that anymore.  As far as my system goes, for the immediate time being it is physically unplugged from the wall when not being used.

The best remedy is NOT to listen to direct to wall purists and audio enthusiasts often contributing to discussions here. They are extremely delusional. There are may be X many reasons vs. just ONE safety you can't jeopardize. I have surges nearly daily and my relatively vintage Panamax is a REAL DOG when it comes to protection and voltage stabilization!

@12many True. OTOH, Wirecutter is literally the only time I’ve seen actual surge testing done by a third party.

Every other review I’ve seen for surge protectors is basically just reading the online specs.

If you do happen to find actual surge testing done by others, please let me know.

Be cautions with web site reviews that provide links to buy the product.  They make money off the links and hence provide good reviews to products (or only review) that participate in the referral program.  Does not mean the product is not good, but there is a financial motivation with the review.  

Yes, a panel mounted surge protector nearest the incoming power cables is best and has the lowest RL. Worth giving up 2 or 4 slots for. Next is wired, and as close to entrance of service wiring as possible.

The issue is that they are parallel devices that need to move lots of current to keep the voltage at the other breakers down.  High R or L makes them less effective.

@immatthewj You are correct. and most surges capable of damaging electronics are invisible.

For some reason some people equate a power surge only with visible near by lightning strikes which cause visible arcing and sparks inside the home. The theory goes, well, if that’s what will damage my gear then there’s nothing I can do.

I wrote more about this here:

@jea48  , sorry if it seems as if I am beating this circuit breaker thing to death, but am I correct in assuming that the type of surge that the OP of this thread probably experienced would NOT have been one that would have jumped across a tripped breaker?  (As it stands, I unplugged my system after I finished up with it this evening.)

I run this wired/mounted external and away from the circuit box:

So, I asked Pi.ai for a little help in reading, and Pi brought up 3 points worth discussing:

Type 3 Surge Protection Devices (SPDs) are typically installed at a distance of at least 10 meters (33 feet) from the main electrical panel or power distribution board for a few reasons:

1. To allow for proper voltage clamping: Installing the SPD at a certain distance from the panel allows it to effectively clamp down the overvoltage surge before it reaches the equipment being protected. This distance ensures that the SPD has enough time to react to the surge and divert it to ground safely.
2. To avoid potential damage to the electrical panel: If an SPD is installed too close to the electrical panel, there’s a risk that the surge energy diverted to ground by the SPD could damage the panel itself or the wiring connected to it.
3. To reduce the risk of interference: By keeping the SPD at a safe distance from the electrical panel, it minimizes the potential for electromagnetic interference (EMI) or other types of interference that could negatively impact the performance of nearby electrical equipment.

It’s been a really confusing read since some type 3 devices are permanently installed, and others are plug and cord.

If you use any series mode protection (Furman SMP, Brickwall or Zerosurge) these three points are moot. The low pass filter they incorporate (aka wave shaping filter) slows the super-fast rise time of a surge and reduces current flow due to the surge, and gives the surge protector enough time to disconnect if needed.

In essence the 10m requirement uses the wiring in the building as a RL low pass filter to ensure MOV’s downstream have time to react and won’t actually stress the AIR (Amp Interrupt Rating) of upstream breakers (kind of what I mentioned). However, series mode protective devices ARE RL filters (more L than R).

Other devices which are not strictly series mode like older Panamax may also include enough wave shaping to let the MOVs do their job.  It's not exactly guaranteed, but you can't really get to very low let through voltages without some sort of wave shaping/filtering in place because MOVs alone can't clamp low enough and fast enough to keep the let through voltages down.

Sounds like a cord and plug Type 3 SPD will do little, if anything, for protecting audio equipment from a high voltage transient event if the branch circuit wiring is less than 30ft long.

Well, that sure explains why Wirecutter’s testing with 5kV is useless... (not).

Based on other readings in the NEC, my understanding is that when the NEC includes minimum wiring distance as important they are considering the total amp interrupt rating. That is, if a short should occur, will it cause too much current for the upstream breakers. They are not making a statement about the effectiveness of the surge protector. They are saying you should keep it far enough away to ensure when the protector does work it won’t overload the breakers.

In the case of SMP devices, this is not an issue as they block current instead of encouraging it as MOV’s do.

Again, if you are questioning the effectiveness of Furman devices, I encourage you to read the full Wirecutter article and their testing methods. There’s no bone in that soup to pick.

Sense about the function of fuses.

Thanks for the info.  That makes sense.  I'm running my T1's as rear surrounds and have them on a small APC surge protector.  My front end electronics are on a Furman Elite 20, but my front T Ref's and power amps are just into the wall.  Maybe I need to rethink things.  I'm in Vegas.  We don't get many thunder storms, but do get a few.  I've never had a destructive power surge so far, but......

The amps have shipped and should arrive Tuesday.
Unfortunately, I am not the least bit handy, so I am going to suffer the expense of paying a technician from the dealer.

OP:

If it were me, I’d 100% ask if they can repair just the amps. 😂  The amp is going to be a lot lighter and smaller than the whole speaker.

If you feel comfortable with a screwdriver you should be able to remove the sub amp and ship that alone to them. When you do, measure the resistance of the subwoofer coil with any cheap multimeter, and talk to GE techs first. If they measure like a dead short or infinity you may have bad woofers as well.

@12blistn 

I phoned a GoldenEar technician right after the outage. His first response was that it was blown amps.  I wish it were otherwise.

Isn’t that what the fuse is for?

@12blistn

Checking the fuses is a great first step, but they aren’t really for protecting against incoming voltage surges. They are for protecting from shorts inside the gear. A damaging surge voltage may be 400V or higher but never exceed a few microamps, therefore no breaker or fuse tripping.  For the same reasons the NEC now requires homes be surge protected in addition to the required breakers.

A power surge is often high voltage but relatively low total power and current. Takes a sustained current flow for that fuse to heat up and trip but it only takes microamps and milliseconds to burn out a semiconductor. Sometimes the static electricity you generate walking across a carpet can be enough, and would be if semiconductors were out of their protective enclosure.

When I was in manufacturing we’d even bring in humidifiers in addition to static straps to prevent chips from dying from static discharge during assembly and test. To put this in proportion, it takes about 15 milliamps to interfere with your hearts beating, but that tiny bit of high voltage current can wreak havoc on a lot of electronics.

I have some GE Triton 1's. Sounds like it might be a blown fuse.  Isn't that what the fuse is for?  The fuse is a little hard to get at.  Instead of being able to access it from the outside, you have to unscrew the amp plate.  I can't remember if you have to pull down the sock.  The folks at Golden Ear have always been really helpful to me.  I would talk to them about your problem.  Might be an easy fix.

Surge protectors are a waste of money. Invest in a whole house surge protector like the Seimens FS140 and be done with it. 

@erik_squires ​​​​thanks for the input.  I ordered the Furman PST 8, if it doesn't work I can use it for the rest of the Audio/Video equipment, but hopefully, it will support my Amplifier.

@robert_1  - Sounds very squishy.

Furman makes units for 15 A and 20A circuits.  Hope that's high enough.

My amplifier manual specifies not to connect to a power strip unless it is rated for High Current use. My question is are the Furman/Tripp Lite mentioned here capable for High Current use? 

@markcasazza

I quote pi.ai:

Both Panamax and Furman are owned by the same parent company, Linear, LLC, which is a division of Nortek, Inc. In 2006, Panamax acquired Furman Sound, and since then, Furman has operated as a second brand within Panamax.

When I last looked, some Panamax high end surge protectors included the Furman features of SMP and LiFT.

You are right that a lot of snake oil in this business exists which is why I always turn to the Wirecutter article which is, as far as I know, the only third-party survey of surge protectors which actually includes 5kV surge testing.

The Furman brand has long been associated with professional sound gear as well as home gear.

I was formerly in the high end computer sales business. There are only 2 "over the counter" surge protector brands that actually do anything . TrippLite has got a lot of mention above and I totally agree. The other brand in Panamax. If you don't have one of those I consider it a power strip. I'm sure there are Audiophile grade products that do a great job, I'm talking regular "over the counter" surge protectors.

@jea48 - Furman with SMP will protect in both cases you mentioned.

It uses series mode protection (SMP) which has no activation time. My understanding is that they rate surge protectors for 5kV surges specifically because the expectation is that anything over that will jump incoming insulation to ground before it can enter the home. The series mode protection slows the event down long enough for the over voltage breaker to trip if still needed, such as the case in a continuous over or under-voltage.

I want to point out that we’re deep into the "what if" situations that are not the major cases. I remember when seat belts became required by law, everyone focused on "what if a plane lands on my car? What if a dinosaur swallows my Eclipse? How is the seat belt going to help me then?" despite the fact that seat belts converted about half of fatal car accidents to non-fatal accidents.

Living in South Carolina near the ocean I’ve had at least a dozen serious surge events some of which were near-misses but most were not. The OP has already discovered that the 2 devices not surge protected in his stereo were what went, I’ve had the same happen here, but with a laptop. I’ve also had my Furman’s turn off due to over/under voltages caused by nearby transformer events.

You are right though, the A’gon poster who had the roof blown off his living room was probably not going to be protected. How many of us have actually had that happen vs. the more moderate cases?

Buy Belkin surge protectors from Amazon.  

And let us not forget solar flares!

Hi, 

as I read the responses here and your original post, it seems clear you should have a protected outlet at each speaker  

An inexpensive product with an equipment warranty would be the Pro series fromAPC  one for each speaker total of around $60 or less  

if your house wiring is correct, and you have a surge, the units *clamp* the voltage, fail the unit in off mode. replace with another or send unit in toAPC for replacement  

message me if you need more detail, or would even like a call to clarify. 
hope your repair goes smoothly!

@immatthewj What does switching off the breakers do. Don't you want them on so they offer protection by tripping?

If you switch them off, don't you lose their protection and allow current to flow through without impediment? 

@vinylshadow  , I just re-read the entire thread to make sure that I was going to order the correct product and in the course of that re-reading I went through this post by you again, and when I said I turn the breaker off I meant that I manually trip it and this does the opposite of "allow current to flow through without impediment" as it actually completely impedes current from flowing through the circuit under normal circumstances.

However, Jea informs me that a massive voltage spike/surge could jump across a tripped breaker and this does not offer the level of protection that I thought it did.  I think, however, it may have been sufficient to protect against the type of surge that the OP of this thread experienced.  I hope I cleared up what I meant on that.

@immatthewj pay no attention to the pics, they all come w/ attached cord. Your seeing a listing for extra 3ft cords for sources.

Okay, thanks @audioguy85  , that clears that up and saves me from buying that 3' cord!

Best to unplug equipment when there is a TS warning. That’s your best protection. Pia, but it’s guaranteed.

@immatthewj pay no attention to the pics, they all come w/ attached cord. Your seeing a listing for extra 3ft cords for sources.

Furman pst-8, had mine going on 4 or 5 years. Works great.

Probably the one that’s included.

Well, this is interesting, I am looking at the picture of a PST-8 on Amazon and it shows a detachable 3' cord, and then I am looking at a PST-8 on Sweetwater and it is showing the power cord hardwired into the PST-8.  Hmmmm?  (The PST8 from 'Zon costs about $20 more.)  I guess I'll order the one from 'Zon and unless someone on this thread advises agsindt, I think I'll grab a heavier cord that is 3' long.  I think I'll order this one in 3' long:

NO. A high voltage lightning transient event lasts no longer than the blink of an eye, at most a few microseconds to milliseconds. For that reason a good SPD must absorb, shunt, divert, a high voltage transient to ground in a nanosecond or less.

@jea48  , thank you--I have learned a lot from you in the past and I continue to do so.  I am not trying to beat this horse to death in order to get the answer I want, I am genuinely trying to learn as much as I can, so would the kind of voltage surge/spike that could jump across a tripped circuit breaker be protected from by a surge protector?  For example, by the Furman PST-8 that has been talked about in this thread?  Thanks again.

Spending my time listening to chamber music and other music not requiring a subwoofer.

Maybe I’ll get to know the Beethoven string quartets better.