AFAIK, both WireWorld and Straightwire both sell subwoofer cables
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Wolf_garcia, I agree, there is not much activity at 30Hz. Another story is frequency response in the room. My room amplifies about 30-35Hz extending response a bit, but extension is less important to me, than quality of the bass. My speakers play all bass notes pretty much even, free of resonances. Attack and decay of the string sounds very natural and undistorted. Widely used overhang motor woofers often have huge distortions reaching 5%. My speakers are also (judging by the size of the magnets) overhang, but don't have bottom suspension (spiderweb). This suspension adds to membrane's weight, slowing response, and affecting linearity of the motion.
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The low frequency capability (listed as -3db) of most main speakers is generally where not much bass is going on and that's fine…thinking my Silverline Preludes with 3.75" (larger than the 3.5" listed, but still) woofers get any real bass at the 35hz point or whatever they claim is easily tested with a low frequency test tone…yeah…there is some sound at that frequency but really you have to get to the 50hz and above point to see where they start to lose bass output. This is fine with me though as they sound amazing, especially with the RELs I use with 'em…musical subs are exactly that and I put mine at around that 50hz point so they blend perfectly in my listening room at from normal to loud levels. |
Some products have including speakers benefit of subwoofer but not all of. Now a days, Ceiling Speakers have
including features of
subwoofer. So, he said truth at some level. |
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Just added a 15 yrs old sub that was on my home theater that I am not using it any more to try out on Cary SLI-80 yesterday. Wow, unbelievable the soundstage opened up a lot more with very big noticeable. But the volume was very low and not happy with it so I took the sub out. Somehow after I connected RCA to sub outputs on SLI-80, the volume was lower right away. |
Audio is all about comparing and creating the best endresult, it is that simple. When 80hz or lower would give better results we would use it. But it is inferior, so you would be a fool to choose a lower endresult. I had a client with a Wilson Audio Sasha. I sold them for him a few months ago. He was never happy with them. He didn't like the tweeters and he also didn't like the low freq. Even with the Momentum Stereo he found the low freq not tight and missed the layers he was looking for. |
With the exception of Bo, pretty much nobody would use subs into the low mids as it isn't necessary and is simply not going to sound right. If you have very bass shy monitors you might put the subs up to 80hz or something but beyond that it gets weird (try it). Boo uses digital EQ to get whatever results his golden ears require so I imagine that's a key element of his take on what sounds right. Another note on driver "speed"…clearly, doped paper cones can be extremely light and sound amazing (new Wilsons anybody?) and the utter lack of understanding how drivers work is a hallmark of Bo's imaginary world. |
In the past we only sold Rel subwoofers. We never went further than about 50hz-60hz. Based on surround we went to 80hz. I never thought about using it further than that. Until a client of mine phoned me in 2012. He read about an article about using subwoofers till 120hz. Before I tested it I said that I thought that it could make a possitive difference. After my tests I knew. These days all subwoofers I sell I use till 120hz of sometimes even 140hz. Even in stereo use I have proven that it makes a huge improvement. These days I use the best professional lasers to work at mm. precision and professional roomcorrection. Without these tools you cannot work precise enought to use it till 120hz. Beside this you need subwoofers who use ceramic/aluminium drivers. When you can measure the subwoofer with the speakers togheter you can create a much better timing. |
120 hz looks to be about the average crossover cut off point on many commercial subs. They are capable but you will create unwanted over lap and have problems integrating them. At least that has been my experience. When subs are set too high for the mains they stand out as less of a seamless integration. Especially true while using full size floor standers capable of going a lot lower. |
I really try to stay out of threads. But this one borders on the ridiculous. Bo1972 said: "Most subwoofers are too slow..." "I can guarantee you 100% that this is inferior compared to using a subwoofer till 120hz." Wow! This is so wrong on so many counts. And it calls into question any claims of superior knowledge and the benefits of experience as well. Best, Jim Smith |
In the past you had less different other options. These days there are more options, but also better options like REL. Shootouts give you the information that they are not the best anymore. In my world the best only counts. I don't care what the name is. The best results always counts. The quality of subwoofers these days is a lot better based on better materials ( much faster response) and measurement systems. 10 years ago I never thought that we would have the level in speed and integration what we have today. And that the best subwoofers in speed even can be used till 120hz and higher. |
These settings we used 15 years ago with Rel subwoofers as well. Because you cannot use them a lot higher. I can garantee you 100% that this is inferior compared to using a subwoofer till 120hz. Rel you cannot use it this high, because I had clients with new Rel subwoofers who were not able to be set till 120hz I would never recommand a subwoofer what can be set to max 80hz. When I compared a subwoofer what is able to be used till 120hz, they directly sold their Rel. The rule in audio is; at the end each person will choose for the best endresult. That is why you need to show people the limitations of their subwoofer. What do you want to hear......the truth or the thing you would like to hear...... In audio there are still a lot of people who want to hear what they want to hear. These I cannot help! |
I finally got my Rel T/5i sub set.up with my Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution monitors. The sub is crossed over at a little below 40Hz. Using my spl meter I verified that I am getting pretty flat response from 100Hz down to 20Hz! I am completely satisfied with how my setup sounds with the sub. I didn't realize how much low freq information I was missing. My only complaint is waiting so long! Now I wonder if adding another one would improve things even more? |
I don't think a decent subwoofer is ever too slow. Perhaps what people are hearing is a maladjustment (x-over or sub volume set too high) or simply improper sub placement. I won't even run my desktop system without a sub because even though I paid 1k for those stand-mounts, pure, deep lows that I can feel (ever heard live music?) are not in their wheelhouse. |
You can put me down on record saying REL and MJ acoustics do very competent subs. The relevant point of cone break up was brought up. That can be one of paper's disadvantages if your like me and push your systems too hard at times. This is another reason multiple subs are a good idea, not only with paper. Not only will multiples make it easier to obtain fuller bass and a flatter response but you wont have to push two quite as hard to get closer to desired DB levels. There are usually compromises everywhere. As with EQ'ed sealed boxes and box ring. Yet another reason to have multiple subs in your set up. The more the merrier. I switched things around a little bit this morning and connected my two JBL subs, they can take a little more abuse. Come to think of it, those happen to have paper cones too. Coincidence, probably not ;). |
It is our crying Woolfy again. I guess you still use your "old' Rel 150 subwoofer. In audio the most convincing sound always will win. It is not 6 years, but 18 years of sales experience. The biggest difference compared to all my collegues is that I have done a lot a research in those 18 years of time. And still do. Most people who work in audio seldom do any research in audio. |
Bo1972's assumption that audiogon posters somehow miss the boat on great sounding audio due to lacking his 6 years of sales experience, combined with his inability to respond to posts from far more sophisticated audiophiles (many exhibiting near zen-like patience with his drivel, unlike myself) pretty much says it all. Bo…your posts continue to make you seem utterly clueless…Bo…really…you may need professional help…I might know a therapist in the Netherlands I can recommend…Bo... |
And yess all products are not perfect. But only when you are aware of all the properties ( d.n.a. of a tool) it owns you could be able to use them. When I ask to people; tell me the properties of the product you own or sell? They can’t answer it. This means that you will never understand what you are doing. When I asked a few people who work in audio for a long time and who sell highend about properties they couldn’t tell. When I asked them but tell me then how the sound and stage is build, they could not tell. So they said: I guess you are right that this way it is difficult to control the sound. So I said: it is not about the fact if I am right. You need to understand that the way you use audio never will work that well. |
I will explain it once again: I compare and test all the time. The only thing what is important in audio is that those products who give the best results do matter. All the other products doens’t make sense. Even te brand does not matter, because when another brand can give a better result, this will be the new reference. When paper subs would be better than ceramic subs I would want them and sell them. But all results gave the same answer. When I would get better results at 80hz, I would use it all the time. But 120hz makes clear that it is a lot better. That is why you need to test and compare all the time. Over and over again...... |
I wish you would stop saying some subs are "too slow" bo1972. Bass is slow because it is supposed to be. I can almost guarantee if the bass is tight and fast it's because the sub is not going down to it's desired frequency. When's the last time you heard a 10' kettle drum or an acoustic bass? Another thing. All audio components have limitations. Everything built has some limitation. A sub that works up to 120hz is easy. Making one work at 15hz is harder. |
"regarding cone material.....Rythmik’s Brian Ding recommends AGAINST crossing-over his aluminum coned subs at higher than 80Hz " I understand because the are too slow, and cannot handle more. This is a limitation, you never should choose for audio tools which have limitations. Most tools/products in audio have limitations and that is why you should never buy them. A full aluminium cone is also not the right material. You can use aluminium, but....just for a part. That is why ceramics with aluminium works better. When you compare and test subwoofers who are able to be used till 120hz or higher they outperform the paper subwoofer with ease. Audio needs to be used to find those products which give the best result, all other inferior products does not add anything to the world of audio! |
Regarding cone material.....Rythmik’s Brian Ding recommends AGAINST crossing-over his aluminum coned subs at higher than 80Hz (the built-in Rythmik x/o affords as high a frequency as 120Hz, but that’s for the paper-coned sub), going with the paper-coned F12G if needing to do so. The reason for that is the aluminum cones have a lower resonant frequency (the aluminum cone itself, not the sub’s rf) than do the paper---that rf being too close to 80Hz for comfort. He recommends aluminum for higher-SPL applications, as it is stiffer than paper, displaying less cone break-up (non-pistonic behavior) at high excursion. |
The acoustics of a room limits the quality of an audio set te most. I can garantee you that most people loose a big part of the quality their system could give in a better acoustic room. It doens’t matter how expensive the audio system is, the room has a huge influence on the end results. So here you can win the most to create a better end result. That is why I have done hundreds of tests in the last 6 years regarding the acoustics of a room. I have improved it over and over again. It never stops, because a perfectionist goes on and on.... Over time you have new ideas and they bring it to an even higher level. This is what I love about audio as well. Testing and shootouts is like an addiction for me. It doesn't cost me energy, because audio is like a second nature for me. How I hear music and instruments in real, I want an audio system to sound like. It is in my head and I create it by colleting properties of all the different parts. It is like a puzzle. You combine different pieces togheter to listen what it does. When you have done this like me thousands of times, you see patterns. They make you understand why the stage and sound is what you hear. In 2005 I had ideas how a subwoofer should integrate, but at that time I thought it was not possible. But now in 2016 it has become possible. Time and technique go on and they give us much more tools to create a higher level of realism in sound. |
That were my first thoughts as well, but I test and compare. At the end the best results count. I have proven that it can bring subwoofers to a much higher level compared to the old fashion way of using it till 40-80hz. Most subwoofers are too slow to be used this far and second you need a professional system to make the subwoofer one with the speakers. At the end it is possible and brings it to a new level of integration. A few years ago I demoed Stealth Low freqency to a surround specialist. He never auditioned something like this and he said: I think you have gold in your hands with this. What you hear and perceive counts. I never thought that I would sell stereo with a subwoofer to be honest. Till 2008 I hated subwoofers for stereo use. All the tests I made with Statement Audio Pro measurment did change my thoughts completely. You need to look further to create new levels of quality in sound. I have had many discussions with technical people who developed the best highend products. But when I asked them about the properties of the products they use at their shows they could not answer. So I said; then you don’t understand how the sound and stage is being build what you listen at? They become totally silent. They were not able to answer the question. I test each part/tool ( amp, cable, speaker, source, condtioner etc.) to find out which properties it owns. I work and think by Total Sound. This contains 8 parts you judge sound for. This way you much better can control audio and adapt it like you want it. Because you understand why the sound and stage is what you hear. Another benefit is that you are able to use all the properties a speaker owns. I have proven that I can let people hear that they are missing parts in their set. Thye miss parts of Tru-Fi. All these parts influence our emotion. When you create an audio set with all the different parts you judge sound for, it will be more complete. People are more exited and feel more emotion during listening. |
bo1972, there is nothing wrong with making experimental observations as you do, but in my opinion one critical element seems to be lacking: A strong background in acoustics and psychoacoustics. The human mind loves to have explanations for what it observes in the world around it. If we do not have enough correct information in our mental database, we will manufacture explanations using what limited information we do have. So we may conclude that this subwoofer sounds faster than that one because of cone material or woofer diameter, and once this has become one of our core beliefs, our mind selectively interprets our experiences to preserve and reinforce that belief. We confuse correlation with causation and come up with erroneous "laws". And we humans do not like to have our beliefs challenged because we identify with them. We love to "be right" and we hate to "be wrong" (see, even the wording equates our self with our belief, which is a mistake). Our highest allegiance should always be to the truth, not to a favorite theory. In my opinion it is the responsibility of those of us who claim to be professionals in this field to acquire a professional level of expertise. That doesn’t necessarily mean we need a college degree in the subject, but it does mean that we should at least read and study for our niche as much as a serious college student would. I suggest starting out with Dr. Floyd Toole’s "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms", which has chapters devoted to the stuff this thread is about. Don’t stop there, but at least start there, and then look in the bibliography for further reading in areas of interest. I also recommend Geddes, Everest, and Blauert. The advantage of going to so much effort is this: Now when we make an observation, our minds will be able to draw from valid scientific theories and explanations stored in our mental database, instead of having to manufacture its own explanation from very limited information. Imo, ime, ymmv, etc. Duke |
I auditioned the DD18 a few years ago. The thing I liked was the integration in the room without any acoustic problems. But the instruments and voices became less focussed and bigger in proportion. We switched between on and off. That is why you need a room acoustic system what measures both speakers and subwoofer togheter. And not separated. Audio is testing and comparing. I started to test in 1998 to know all the different properties of each part of an audio set. Today a client of mine phoned me. He auditioned a surroundset with the new Platinum series II from Monitor Audio. This set was with the Pl-300, Pl-100, PL-centre and PLW215 subwoofer. Also here the subwoofer was measurend with the room calibration system of the subwoofer. They were not able to let the subwoofer play above 40hz. Because the control was gone. These days all subwoofer go till 120hz. The only reason I am able to create this is because I can measure the subwoofer very accurate. They become one with the speakers. This is a huge advantage. Using lasers makes it even more precise. This is amature level in audio, and this is common these days. Beside this it does not integrate like Stealth Low Frequency. Velodyne needs a better response. Last year a client of mine visit me. He also owns the DD18. I told him what Stealth low frequency means and does. After the demo his words were: This is the level of integration what I would wish. This is a different level compared to my Velodyne. He understood that the difference in timing and speed is huge. I use shootouts and testing to find the best products and create the best sound possible. Audio is understanding music and second you need to find out which properties each part owns. |
Bo1972 has resurfaced! YAY! However, he continues to be utterly wrong when claiming "slow" response is something that has anything to do with cone material, or actually exists in reality as he describes it (bass frequencies are a specific animal in any acoustic space and catch phrases like "slow" are somewhat useless), and clearly has a very limited understanding of how any of this works…A statement like "Even with a 4000 watt amp, a paper driver is still slow in response. Doesn’t make sense. " is likely true in his brain as he lacks the sophistication to make sense of this while burdened with preconceived notions based on his alleged "proof." Note that he’s stated that he uses subs crossed over at around 150hz which is well into low midrange territory, and anybody who tests the efficacy of that setup would notice it sounds like crap without copious amounts of some sort of (otherwise unnecessary) EQ. Bo has shown he knows very little about actual music (I think he heard a live concert somewhere once), promotes an imagined pseudo expertise with long winded proclamations based on nonsense, and his re-emergence gives me something to happily rail at…welcome back Bo. |
First off I am a dealer for Velodyne, so there’s that. I have a pair of the DD10+ (on sustrum stands about 20" off the floor which I felt helped articulation,) complementing Tad CR1’s. I run the TAD’s full range and the subs of the amps, which I think is preferable (at least with my BHK 300’S) One of things no one seems to mention is that bass levels in mixing are rarely consistent. Add that to the loudness curve based on playback levels. So an added benefit it using the subs as a tone control. (of course an expensive one, and a feature most of us don’t have in our preamps) I have the remote buttons on the velodyne set up with 5 different slopes so it’s easy to fill in recordings with weak bass, or for late night listening. Even sub optimal live concert streaming like grateful Dead ex member shows from the Capital theater in Port chester NY or live jazz from Smalls and mezzrow here in nyc are enhanced with a sub. It’s kinda fun to expand the bass from these Web streams and hear the 7th Avenue subway go by, just as when I’m actually in Smalls jazz venue. On proper studio recordings, When I mute the subs and listen, I feel like it sounds a bit like truly excellent hi fi. Adding the subs back In - even though they are coming in only below 40hz, sounds like musicians in the room. It subtlely fills out voice and other instruments higher up in a way that seems counterintuitive. I guess I’m a tweeker, but I really enjoy taking a few seconds per track or per album, and optimizing the bass level and sometimes slope to get the most realistic feel for the moment. This is probably in stark contrast to most, who get a reference or flat response and wouldn’t dream of altering it to taste. I have never compared other subs in my space so I can’t comment - but of course I’d love to hear JL’s latest just for comparison. |
Ricred1, I hope you don’t mind me chiming in as I have enjoyed this thread and am considering adding a sub to my system. I am driving a pair of Esoteric MG 10s in a room ~12.5 W x 15 D x 8.5 H. Though I am convinced that more than a single sub is best I would like to start with a single. I also think I would like to continue to use my 10s full range. They drop off rapidly below ~50hz. I would be willing to buy a used sub to experiment with as I could resell it if desired. I believe a close box might be best, with variable phase. Any suggestions on a sub or my thinking? |
"bo1972"..."In almost 18 years of time I learned that over 95% of all products in audio are not worth it’s money." Using arbitrary percentages to make an across the board deduction like that is just plain silly. I would have to presume you have listened to every audio device ever made in the past 18 years ? |
I can be very particular and posses a keen sense of hearing. I was playing music by ear before I was introduced to my first music teacher. I do not require laser guided measuring devices or proper star alignment before partaking in sub woofer set up to integrate subs to a level of personal satisfaction. I can distinguish variances brought forth by things like cone material and surface areas. I can also appreciate multiples of 8" sub woofers as I find they often produce tighter cleaner bass. Not to say subs with larger cone surfaces are inferior in this respect I don’t believe that to be true all the time. I do believe not all subs are created equal even while being seemingly equal to some. Steps out. |
These days I can set subwoofers up to 140hz and higher. This is not possible with paper cones. This makes a huge improvement for the integration. In the past I never went further than 80hz. Rel subwoofers could not even reach this level. After a phonecall of a client of mine to use it till 120 hz, I tested it directly. And mannn this gave a new level and thoughts. I never had thought to use it this far. These days I set most sold subwoofers till 120hz. What I said before; there are many ways to improve the interation of a subwoofer. Stealth low freq can only be reached by professional mic and lasers. By hand this accuracy is not possible. In almost all shops and at shows I only audition low level of integration. This means that setting up a subwoofer is still difficult for most people. Even with the roomacoustic systems a subwoofers owns you still have not the perfect integration. When instruments and voices become bigger in proportion or less focussed, you know one thing for sure.....it doesn’t integrate as it should! |
Particularly if the soundstage is a large reverberant church/cathedral or concert hall, RW. The ability to play really low makes possible reproducing the huge sound (long wavelengths and very low frequency reflections between walls, floor, and ceiling) heard in such enclosed spaces. And having two subs is important in being able to do that, as some of that very low frequency information contains out-of-phase (left minus right and visa versa) elements, which are cancelled when the left and right channels are summed to mono. |
Bass is not supposed to be fast. If it were it would be treble. Bass has a much longer wavelength than treble or midrange and takes longer to develop. If your sub seems muddy it's probably because it's crossed over to high or turned up too high. In addition a good sub will increase the size of the soundstage. A sub that can go down to 20hz or below can better produce 27 or 40hz much easier than speakers that go down to 27hz. |