Another +vote for REL subwoofer. Happy Listening!
Subwoofer for classical music listener
This is my second post on the subject of subwoofers.
My first post wasn't specific enough.
I listen to classical music 90% of the time.
Are there any classical music listeners out there who have subwoofers?
if there are, could you let me know what you have?
i don't imagine I would need quite as powerful or expensive a sub as those who mainly listen to other types of music, but I may be wrong.
My first post wasn't specific enough.
I listen to classical music 90% of the time.
Are there any classical music listeners out there who have subwoofers?
if there are, could you let me know what you have?
i don't imagine I would need quite as powerful or expensive a sub as those who mainly listen to other types of music, but I may be wrong.
203 responses Add your response
+1 Al I don’t recommend splitting line level signals or long line level runs from consumer gear to the amp unless you happen to have a rather powerful preamp like professionals would use. Consumer hifi is usually underpowered and can sound lifeless in situations driving multiple loads simultaneously or long runs. In any case low capacitance wire is best and given the high impedances ideally you would want low noise interconnect like Canare star Quad wire (to protect from EM interference or audible hum from transformers or AC power). So to add to all the excellent advice from Al - try to ensure you have the lowest capacitance wire you can find within reason - Canare L4E6S would be my choice. If you are using RCA rather than XLR then you also have a higher chance to get hum with shared line levels (due to ground loops). Also high impedance inputs will make equipment more susceptible to ground loops. (47k is five times that of 10K impedance and ground loop noise will be commensurately 5 times higher - because ground loops or EM noise has very little current the higher the impedance seen the more noise you hear as the small spurious voltage dissipates less into higher impedance. This is why pro gear can often have beefier preamps and double the voltage output (XLR) and lower impedance devices can be connected to them - it makes the system as a whole have greater noise immunity) |
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Shadorne, thanks for the excellent comments. Regarding cable capacitance I’ll mention that I had raised that issue earlier in the thread, and it turns out that the OP’s existing interconnects are only 2 feet long. Given the preamp’s nominal output impedance of 500 ohms, and assuming the length of the cables to the sub is not unusually long, cable capacitance (which of course is proportional to length) is therefore unlikely to be an issue in this case. |
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I owned REL Storm III and loved it. I tried line level and speaker level connections. I really liked what the sub could do for my system. Bought a measuring mic and learnt how to use REW. So I could measure the impact of varying placement. Later I bought 2 Rythmiks 12" kits and built sealed, very heavy (100 lb each), rigid boxes. For less than the REL I got better sound. Rythmiks are servo driven and also have a lot more controls for fine tuning. It was a lot better than the REL. Eventually I went from the pre (Lamm LL2) to the subs xo and from there to the tube power amp, relieving the amp and speakers from attempting to reproduce below 80Hz. Yet another improvement. Like the article linked to earlier said. If you extrapolate the reasoning in that article you arrive at an active system. Later I did without the preamp altogether abd went active. Running digital xo at the software level, adding time alignment of the sub and midbass woofer, and adding room correction is yet another leap forward. Despite this being a paradigm shift for most audiophiles thinking digital xo are detrimental. I know I'm not going back. |
@Steakster, I don't think it's possible to answer your question without a lot of additional
information, including the things you mentioned that cannot be determined, and
also:
Something you might consider, though, would be trying to find some sort of buffer stage, that would provide a high input impedance and a low output impedance, and inserting it in the path between the preamp and the subs. Or, if the main power amp also has a low input impedance, perhaps inserting it in the path between the preamp and both destinations. Something like the Burson Audio buffer stage that was marketed some years ago, but is no longer made. Best regards, -- Al
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@steakster That sounds MUCH more promising. I would expect a reasonably well designed transformer coupled output stage to not have much variation in output impedance over the frequency range. Consequently I would expect that even if the output impedance is 630 ohms there would be no problem even if the overall load impedance is much less than 12K, and certainly less than the parallel combination of 12K and 50K which is 9.7K. (The 100K balanced input impedance of the power amp probably represents a load of 50K on each of the signals in the balanced signal pair). And capacitance won’t be an issue either, given the short length of the cable to the power amp, and its exceptionally low capacitance per foot. The one thing I’m left wondering, though, is if separate transformers are used for the RCA and XLR outputs, or if the circuit is somehow configured such that the same transformer is used for both. Or even if separate transformers are used, if there might be interactions between the two outputs as a result of effects that occur on the primary (input) side of the transformers. For example, effects that might result in a slight impedance imbalance between the balanced pair of signals going to the main power amp. An experiment that might be worth doing would be to turn the level controls on the subs all the way down, and seeing if there is any difference in the sound coming from the main speakers when the cables to the sub are disconnected from the preamp vs. when they are connected. (Of course, have everything turned off when changing connections). Best regards, -- Al |
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I listen to classical music about 80% of the time and yes, I believe that sub woofer(s) which are successfully integrated with your listening room and main speakers can make a significant difference. Over the years I've owned about a half-dozen speaker/sub woofer setups. Some of the integrations have been pretty stress-free, others not! My current setup is in a room that had terrible low frequency characteristics (too numerous to go into here), so integrating my pair of JL Audio F113V2 subs was a very frustrating challenge! I ultimately purchased a UMIK-1 miniDSP calibration microphone, the REW (Room EQ Wizard) software and 10 bass traps to control the room resonances and finalize the tuning of the subs. As it's been said by others, the best sub woofer is the one that doesn't sound like you have them....until you turn the power off! Enjoy your setup! |
Ok! So I just got my SVS SB 2000 subwoofer. now I'm experimenting with various settings and positions. So far, I'm delighted that it hasn't compromised the sound of my system. I have a question though. Whereas it has filled in the bass very nicely, complementing the sound, there have been no visceral lows like that which I hear in a concert hall. The bass fiddle in a jazz group sounds just fine, very well balanced. But when I play a Telarc block buster, I expect more impact. It is very satisfying musically in the stuff I've played so far. Am I asking too much? One possible problem is the Y connector joining the sub and amplifier to the preamp. Although I ordered the correct figuration, Amazon sent the wrong one. So, I had to jump in my car and get a very thin, cheap one from Radio Shack (yes, there still out there, but few and far between.). I've reordered one, triple the thickness. The SVS guy said the thickness shouldn't have that much effect, but I wonder. (Size does matter!) |
If your preamp outs are tied together in order to provide two sets of jacks instead of just one set, you may create a problem with a Y connector. I believe this can cause the output jacks to the main speaker amplifier to be in mono, so in essence three mono channels. Almarg would certainly know if this can happen. You stated on 5/27 your system had "great impact" and now with the sub you chose you have lost that? Impact, slam whichever you want to call it IME happens in the 60-90hz range not at sub frequencies. |
I'm using two sets of Y connectors as outlined in the manual. I'm not sure how to do the high pass filter option. Rhljazz: There's impact and there's IMPACT! I haven't lost any of the power of the original hook-up. I'm just referring to the belly shaking boom of the bass drum in a concert hall. I'm getting much more bass than I had. Just not that overwhelming sort. Maybe my expectations are unrealistic. But I'm really happy with the overall sound. Everything is richer and fuller. |
Rhljazz, thank you. I believe the phenomenon referred to in your first paragraph applies to the situation where a y-connector is used to sum left and right line-level outputs to a mono signal, with the resulting mono signal provided to a sub having only a single line-level input. If the outputs which are summed are common with the main signal path, or are just isolated from it via relatively low value resistors, the channel separation of the main signal path can indeed be compromised. Although some people apparently get away with doing that, depending on the specific design. But it is poor practice at best, and conceivably could even degrade long-term reliability. But none of that is applicable here, as the SB-2000 provides separate left and right inputs. RV’s y-adapters, given that two are being used (as Yogiboy points out should be used), are for the purpose of splitting left and right such that each is routed to the corresponding inputs of the monoblock power amps and the sub. RV, earlier in the thread I had recommended the Audioquest "hard y adapters." I feel it would be good practice to use those, or something equivalent, rather than y-cables. Although I suspect the use of the cheap Radio Shack y-cables is NOT a major contributor to the issue you described. You may have provided some or all of this information earlier, but could you recapitulate a description of the room dimensions, the distances of the speakers to the closest walls, the distance between the speakers, the physical location of the sub, and the location of the listening position within the room. BTW, I have about 40 or 50 Telarc classical LPs, mostly from the 1980s, which I’ve listened to on several different floor standing speakers that reach down to the vicinity of 24 to 28 Hz, and I am very familiar with their sonics. Although I don’t use a sub, it may be relevant that in my room (see my system description) when deep bass weakness occurred in the past on Telarc bass drum beats and other low frequency notes it was caused primarily by rear wall reflections, even though the central third of the wall behind the listening position is open to another room. Such reflections will result in a suckout at a range of frequencies centered at a frequency (in Hz) of about 281.5 divided by the distance in feet between the listening position and that wall. (281.5 feet per second is about 1/4 of the speed of sound in dry air at room temperature, which would cause a rear wall reflection to arrive at the listening position out of phase with the original arrival at the listening position, for frequencies in the vicinity of 281.5/that distance in feet). I was able to improve that issue significantly in my system when I upgraded my preamp to a DEQX HDP-5, which provides myriad signal processing and room correction functions but costs a pretty penny. Finally, of course, in addition to placement considerations your sub provides a number of adjustable parameters, which I assume you’re in the process of fine tuning. And I would expect that if those aren’t optimized, especially the phase control, the acoustic output of the sub may even be partially cancelling the bass outputs from the main speakers somewhat. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
Al: Again thank you for your continuing help. I could give you approximate room dimensions but I'll wait til I get a tape measure. i have a question about phasing. The SVS guy told me to set the phase to zero. How do I determine phasing differences? What do I listen for? I really couldn't hear differences when I first set up the sub. |
@rvpiano If you look at the manual page 7&9 it shows how to use the high pass filter. The manual should point out that you don’t use y adapters when using the high pass filter. You go from the preamp out to the sub in then from the sub out to the amp in . You will need two pairs of IC’s to do this. That manual should explain this! https://system.na1.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=21137&c=3634088&h=34287ab58a6262c3686... |
Rvpiano 6-9-2017From the manual for the sub: Phase Control:Although it isn't stated clearly, I assume "the amplifier" in that statement refers to the amplifier in the sub, not to the external amplifier which drives the main speakers. Keep in mind, also, that the optimal phase control setting is likely to vary somewhat depending on where the sub is located. Also, I'm not sure how the SVS person could make a blanket recommendation of zero degrees without knowing the phase shifts (or possibly even 180 degree polarity inversions) that might be introduced by your amplifier and/or your main speakers. Regarding the high pass filter in the sub, note that it has a fixed corner frequency of 80 Hz, and rolls off at 12 db/octave below that frequency. The sub's low pass filter also rolls off at 12 db/octave, above whatever corner frequency its control is set to (between 50 and 160 Hz). Therefore if the high pass filter function is used (and it is certainly worth trying, although depending on many variables its use may or may not prove to be optimal), the low pass corner frequency should probably be set in the vicinity of 80 Hz, with fine tuning by ear. Regards, -- Al |
sevs said: "If you cannot bring pipe organ into your living room, then all the heat of some previous posts is moot, at least for me. I tried and failed!" rvpiano wrote: "I just want to be able to hear the fundamental tones of, for example, an organ." A good subwoofer well placed may let you hear the fundamental tones of an organ or large bass drum; however, unless you live in a cathedral, you will never successfully "bring a pipe organ into your living room," in my experience. The goal is for your system to sound more convincingly realistic and musical in your room than played through the best of headphones. If it does, you have succeeded and can relax and enjoy the music. I want to acknowledge almarg for all of his informative and practical posts in this thread. I learned a great deal and appreciate your very generous investment of time. You are not only extremely well informed but also exceptionally kind and patient. You represent the best of what the Audiogon forums should be. Thank you, sir. |
Amen to mark's statement!!! I've been fiddling (pun intended) with the three sub controls and I think I've come to a very satisfactory solution. I WAS trying to bring a concert hall (or cathedral) into my living room. Unrealistic. I now have extremely satisfying bass that goes very deep without sounding muddy. Interestingly, when I set the low pass filter from 80 to 100, everything started sounding more realistic. I also adjusted the phase control to get better results. The variable of the bass control was a little more tricky. I think I've got it where it sounds good on the majority of the records and CDs that I've been testing. So, so far, I'm a happy camper. I'll keep experimenting, because that's the way we are, but I'm very happy to have gotten the SVS sub. Thank all of of you (of course, especially Al) for all your comments and suggestions. |
"I was trying to bring a concert hall (or cathedral) into my living room. Unrealistic." rvpiano- good to see you were able to make an informed purchase, and outcome is positive. You're hearing what a sub can bring to the party. As mentioned in my page 1 post, I advanced a couple of steps into the "real" room, when I added a second sub. Playing with your location a little more and bumping the gain a notch may get you closer to hearing the pedal tones/feel of a 17th century Cathedral organ. I play a number of LP's titled "Historic organs of..." They are a real acid test for my mid fi system. While I thought the single sub was fine, adding the 2nd was a game changer. You canget a closer approximation of the crescendo in the opening of Bach's "Toccata "with a sub(single or..) 2 subs is like sitting in the upper level, and the usher has just escorted you to prime seats, stage level. Happy listening with your new sub , and continue to fiddle. |
Schubert: You're right. But right now I'm still in the "audiophile" stage. When I settle down a bit I'll be "Bach." But, the audiophile stage is a lot of fun! tablejockey: I don't know where I'd put a second sub. The opposite wall from the current sub has a doorway and a closet. I'm just enjoying the way it is now. Maybe later I'll figure something out. |
I just fine tuned the bass of the sub by a method that some people might find useful. Like, I'm sure, most new subwoofer owners, I had the bass tuned higher than I should have. Then I listened to two records of a classical symphony ( Mozart's 39th in Eb.) By finding the balance (equal volume) between upper (violins) and lower strings (cellos and basses,) I got the best quality of sound. I then tested many other combinations of instruments (including organ) and styles (including jazz) and found everything to be in balance. |
rvpiano- I too, have the constraints of the system among a living space(no dedicated room) My 2 sub configuration has BOTH subs equidistant to floorstanders BEHIND the listening sofa-long walls. This pressurizes the room in a convincing manner. Bass envelops the room-but not is an obstrusive way. You end up dialing back the settings, as the subs work less. As an aesthetic benefit, no unsightly giant boxes behind the floorstanders. I have them on brass footers/4" maple slabs also brass footers(Mapleshade) A single sub in my room was fine, but the second eliminated a room mode,also changing the very lowest of bass tones(slightly mushy) to a clearer,defined more convincing presentation. Finding the 2nd sub for cheap was the only reason for even considering the sub. I was happy with the single REL. As a side note, the 1812 Overture WITH cannons is glorious. A visceral experience-almost as if you're standing next to them! Happy listening. |
Upon extensive listening, I've discovered that, although I love the sub, there is a definite coloration and lack of precise imaging when listening with it on. It's wonderful for selections with low bass, but in pieces with complex harmonics it doesn't quite have the "magic" that the unadorned system has. But, it is a lot of fun and quite exciting and I'll be listening to it much of the time. I can see an integrated system with both qualities would require me to get a whole new setup and cost big bucks. I'm very happy the way it is for now. Its giving me options I never had before. |
You might not have it dialed in quite right. Some of the imaging problems come from the single sub. you have both channels mixed together which cancels the ambient and phase signals coming from the low frequencies for both Left and Right channels. Contrary to popular belief, there are signals down in the low frequencies that will give clue to direction and space. |
"Upon extensive listening, I've discovered that, although I love the sub, there is a definite coloration and lack of precise imaging when listening with it on." rvpiano- Assuming you've done your homework on sub location, you're still not done finding the sweet spot for the sub. How about BEHIND the listening position? Every room is different so there isn't a absolute "right" location. In my case, the subs(even one) are invisible sonically, with just a hint of low frequency "presence" in the room, noticed when subs are tuned off. Also, IMO there just isn't a "set and forget" gain setting, since bass levels on some recordings(rock) are ridiculously high or low and gain must be adjusted. With Classical music, I find myself not having to fuss, once I find an acceptable setting. The real solution is a remote for the sub, and the listener adjusts to taste, just like the volume remote. The upper level REL G1's have this feature, way out of my reach$$ Finding that spot where the sub "locks in" is a pain, and the ideal spot may not be feasible, but you can find a compromise. Good luck |
Tablejockey: I'm sure you're right that I haven't found the ideal setting and spot for the sub. I have limitations as to where I can place it (furniture, closets, doorways and most important, wife.) I also don't know if I have the fortitude for the job! Right now I'm listening to an audiophile pressing of "Tony Bennett at Carnegie Hall." Without the sub it has no character at all. It comes to life amazingly with the sub. Wonderful!! But with most classical, the way it's configured now, I just don't get the same enjoyment. Not that I haven't tried. I've spent several days and hours at it. Maybe I should be more dedicated. |
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