This is my second post on the subject of subwoofers. My first post wasn't specific enough. I listen to classical music 90% of the time. Are there any classical music listeners out there who have subwoofers? if there are, could you let me know what you have? i don't imagine I would need quite as powerful or expensive a sub as those who mainly listen to other types of music, but I may be wrong.
Personally I like RELs. I have listened to Storm IIIs, G2s (2500 - 3000 used), and Studios ($3500-4500 used). I prefer the older generation ported downward firing woofers (such as the Storm and Studio) because their sound is more nuanced, effectively allowing mid-range sound to come to the fore. Too often, the subwoofers that I have used, although fast and precise, have been overpowering. I felt like I was spending as much time tuning the subs to my room as enjoying good listening. Good luck in your search, and do post about your experience.
I listen to a lot of rock classical and bebop jazz. I noticed that the B&W 802D2’s that I have didn’t go low enough for me to feel the music, and I did notice a low frequency drop-off. I looked for tight musical subwoofers and decided on a Rhythmic F15HP 15" ported servo driven subwoofer. It did take a bit of fiddling with room placement, and I set up the unit by experimenting with crossover points on the mains and subs while listening to slow bass sweeps. Eventually I got my system dialed with even sustainable perceived volume levels through the test bass sweeps.
The tight articulation and integration of the subwoofer and mains has made the music way more engaging. I’m sure someone knowledgeable with calibration software and a mic, would have been able to dial things in quicker, and possibly better but I am extremely happy with the decision to integrate a tight sub into my audio setup.
I’d recommend Rythmik, but servo loaded subs from a company like Velodyne which I heard are easier to calibrate, but they are over twice the cost.
They aren't servo loaded, but I've alos heard good things about SVS subwoofers.
For $1,000 & sealed sub(s), there's only 1 choice that makes sense IMO: the SVS SB-1000. It's a compact, powered, sealed 12" sub. I use one in my home office (where I have a relatively refined desktop audio system). It sounds very good and I only wish there was room for a second one.
With your speakers, you'd probably only want these dialed in at 50-60 Hz, tops. Because they're sealed, the bass doesn't go quite as deep as it would w/the ported version--but that's actually better, since the sealed design (in my experience) outputs more natural sounding bass.
Here's my 2 cents and it may just be worth that! I've done a lot of research on subs and am an advocate of REL's. My system is dual purpose, 2-channel music and 5.5 channel home theater. When I say 5.5, meaning I have 5 subwoofers. A loudspeaker is only designed to generate frequencies to a certain level, typically around 40 Hz for floor standing and 60 Hz for quality bookshelf's. Therefore, why not allow every channel you have produce a full range from 20-20K? Anyone who does an A/B of a system with and w/o a sub quickly discovers something missing without the sub. We live in a full range world. If accurate reproduction of a musical performance is what we're after, then it's important to reproduce everything that was present during the original performance. As far as REL's are concerned, they are integrated using a high level signal tapped directly from the speaker tap of the amp. This way the sub gets the signal at the same exact time and the same exact signature at the corresponding speaker. Setting the crossover and volume can be a bit tricky however, once set correctly, it's a seamless integration. You shouldn't hear your subwoofer. You should hear the system! A subwoofer should cost roughly what a loudspeaker cost, or more! It's much more complex and it's the subwoofers job to integrate in the system, not the pre-amps or external crossover's! I encourage anyone looking to buy a sub, to consider a REL. Don't just look at the pretty box, READ the technology behind it, how it's integrated, and why. Most other subs rely on the pre-amp's crossover or a separate external crossover. If buying extra gear to display is your thing, go for it. If you want a system that is truly integrated, synergistic, and sounds like its all "one" system, read about how the REL works....
I've found out the hard way that I'm extremely limited in what kind of subwoofer I can match to my NuForce class D monoblock amps. If you've followed this thread you've read that the Vandersteen sub I bought was incompatible with my amps and could have damaged them. (Thank goodness they're okay.) Evidently I need a sub which can accept a "floating output" sub. I can't hook up subs to the same posts as the speakers use, which was the case with the Vandersteen. I've been told some REL models are compatible but I don't know which ones. Does anyone know of any subs that are compatible with my type of amps. People suggest I should change amps instead, but I'm really happy with how perfectly the NuForce amps match with my system.
I'm running a REI Stentor with my DALI Epicon 2's. It took me a while to dial it in. Solo Harpsichord for some reason would always expose if I did not have it accurately dialed in. This holds true for my DALIs and my previously owned Dunlavy SCIVs. Once properly integrated, besides what a subwoofer does for piano, Janacek and Stravinsky, it really brings in the 'hall' of the recorded venue and more 'wood' from wood based instruments if that makes any sense.
Rvpiano 6-3-2017
Does anyone know of any subs that are compatible with my type of amps.
I doubt that a sub can be found that would be suitable for connection to the outputs of your amplifiers. But a considerable majority of subs provide line-level inputs, in addition to or instead of speaker-level inputs. That would include most and possibly all of those that have been suggested by the others, aside from the 2wq.
So the approach I would suggest is to choose a sub which provides line-level inputs, and connect it to the outputs of your preamp. If the preamp just provides a single pair of output jacks you could connect it to both the sub and the NuForce amps via a pair of Audioquest "hard y-adapters," or equivalent.
In doing so, however, from a sonic standpoint it is important to be sure that the preamp has a low enough output impedance to be able to drive the combined input impedances of the amp and the sub with good results, and also to be able to drive the capacitances of both sets of interconnects. In most cases that same caveat would apply even if the preamp provides two sets of output jacks, and a y-adapter is not necessary, since in most such cases the two sets of output jacks are wired directly together inside the rear panel, and driven by the same output stage.
The line-level input impedances of many subs are relatively low, often between 5K and 20K, which can make that issue a particular concern. And the output impedance of some preamps, especially tube-based preamps, often rises to much higher values at deep bass frequencies than the specified nominal impedance, which is usually based on a mid-range frequency such as 1 kHz. That would also add to the concern. Again, though, these concerns just relate to sonics, not to any possibility of damage.
If you'll let us know the specific model of your CJ preamp, and whether the modifications that were made to it included an upgrade of its output coupling capacitors (especially if it is a tube-based model), and the lengths of the cables that would connect it to the power amps and to the sub, I can comment further on this.
Al: Thanks again for your help. The preamp is a vintage CJ P11 tube model. i don't really know what modifications were done except that I sent it out not working and it came back sounding better than ever. I don't know what they did, if anything, to change the design. My connecting cables are about two feet in length.
OK. The manual for the PV11 indicates a nominal output impedance of "less than 500 ohms" (presumably at mid-range frequencies), and recommends a minimum load impedance of 10K ohms. Given that output impedance and the short length of the cables to the amps the added capacitance of line-level interconnects that would connect the preamp to a sub won’t be an issue, for any reasonable length. But I would look for a sub providing a line-level input impedance of at least 20K, as the parallel combination of 20K and the 22K input impedance of your amps results in an overall load impedance that would be seen by the preamp of:
(22 x 20)/(22 + 20) = 10.5K.
Unfortunately the specs I can recall for many of the REL models indicate line-level input impedances of 10K, which with the 22K input impedance of the amps would result in a combined load impedance of only 6.9K, well below CJ’s 10K recommended minimum for the PV11. The SVS SB-1000 that was suggested has a line-level input impedance of 47K, which would be great. Some of the relatively expensive JL Audio models have unbalanced line-level input impedances of 50K, although if I recall correctly the input impedance of some of their other models may be too low to be acceptable. You may have to contact some of the other manufacturers that have been suggested to determine the input impedance, if it isn't indicated at their website or in the manuals that are provided online.
Al: Thank you for the time and effort you've put into this. I notice the SVS-SB1000 sells for about $500. Can the quality at this price level be any good? Or should I look further?
RV, I have no first-hand knowledge of the sonics of SVS subs (or subs from any of the other manufacturers that have been mentioned, as I don't use a sub in my system). But FWIW the comments I can recall seeing here and elsewhere about the SVS subs have been very favorable.
I'm using a Rogue Pharaoh integrated class D amplifier with a Vandersteen 2Wq sub. After reading this thread, I tried a little testing. When I turn the balance control all the way to the left while playing music, the sub sounds pretty much normal. But when I turn balance all the way to the right, the subs output seems somewhat attenuated. When balance is in the mid setting, all seems normal. Bass sounds good and well integrated (seamless) with the main speakers. Using one sub, the left and right signal is summed at the sub. Everything to my ears sounds normal and good, but I can't help but wonder if I'm not getting quite as much mix of the right signal along with the left. I have had this sub in my system for over a month and a half with everything turned on most of the time and have noticed no ill effects to the powered sub or my Rogue. Any thoughts? Thanks! Tim
I added an 18" Velodyne to our system (we too listen to 90% classical) and set it to a relative low level. Even though it is off to the side, the deep bass still appears to come from the center between our main full-range speakers. Bought it on Audiogon for $1250 and drove two hours to meet the seller half-way. It has proven to be a great investment.
I listen to Classical 100% on my main system and love my HSU sub. It's powered and meshes very well with my AudioPhysics Tempos. I think it was about $500.
Al: I notice the SVS-SB 2000 is only $200 more. My room is about 575sq ft. the 1000 is recommended for small to medium sized rooms. The 2000 is ported. Is the 2000 a match for my amp as well as the 1000? Sorry to keep bothering you!
Rvpiano, the SB-2000 is described as having the same 47K line-level input impedance as the SB-1000, so using the PV11 to drive both the SB-2000 and your amps should be fine.
Tim (Mr_m), first I'm pretty certain that the DC offset issue which Rvpiano experienced using his amps with the 2Wq doesn't apply in your situation. I believe that issue applies mainly (or perhaps entirely) to certain older designs utilizing ICEPower modules, while the Pharaoh is Hypex-based. Also, I don't see anything in the manual for the Pharaoh cautioning against connecting a sub or any other active device to its outputs.
As far as the issue you described is concerned, I'm understanding that the symptom just occurs on the output of the sub, and not on the outputs of the main speakers. And I assume it occurs on musical passages for which imaging is centered between the speakers when the balance control is set normally. If so it would certainly seem to point to an imbalance between channels in the input circuit of the sub, which would be surprising. And if so it may be worth contacting RV (the sub designer, not the OP :-)) and seeing if he can shed any light on it. Beyond that I have no particular thoughts about the issue.
I called SVS an they assured me the SB-2000 has the same line level input (47K) as the 1000, so I ordered it. Thanks everyone for your help (especially Al) in choosing a subwoofer. I hope this one works out. Richard
Rvpiano, one further thought. I recall reading several years ago that at some time in the past DC blocking devices were marketed specifically for the purpose of connecting powered subs to amps utilizing the ICEPower-based class D modules that had the substantial DC offsets. Although I suspect such devices are no longer available new, it may be possible to find some used ones, which would presumably make it possible to use the 2Wq you already have.
Edit: This was written before seeing your post just above.
PPS: Rvpiano, ignore my last post. In addition to the fact that you’ve already ordered another sub, I’m uncertain as to whether the DC blocking devices I referred to would be suitable for use when monoblock amplifiers are used in conjunction with just one sub, given that the sub probably connects its negative input terminals for the two channels directly together.
I am using two JL Audio F110v2 with a JL Audio CR-1 crossover. Very surprised no one has mentioned this. This is an incredibly seamless system once calibrated. The calibration does take time but the crossover allows you to do this with precision. My speakers alone have nice bass response but once i added the subs with the crossover it took it to a new level. Highly recommended
I just got back from my first day at LA Audio Show. Some impressive, some depressing demos we got here. Could not help comparing what I hear to what I already have at home (see my profile system). Not too many demos have a sub, but the one with two huge ones (Audeze, going mainstream) playing Dead Can Dance (in constant rotation thru SACDs and LPs at yours truly) was not opening my eyes/ears into another dimension. Maybe because it was 16/44 streaming, I will never know... My point is: no one so far responded positively to my old Q of reproducing the sound of a Cathedral Organ at home. Its a good reference point, easily available to anyone. If you cannot bring pipe organ into your living room, then all the heat of some previous posts is moot, at least for me. I tried and failed! Should I buy a second sub, or two bigger ones, or delve into DSP room correction??? Those in the know, please help!
Not using subs for (especially) classical music is better for multiple reasons: subs are slow(er) than your main speakers and will 'muddy' way up to the lower midrange, they will further reduce coherence of instruments and vocals, and change overall sound 'character'. If your speakers do not cover the desired frequency range it's probably a better investment to upgrade them instead of buying subs.
I have to disagree, but with qualifications regarding what @thebestaudio posted.
Not using subs for (especially) classical music is better for multiple reasons: subs are slow(er) than your main speakers and will ’muddy’ way up to the lower midrange,
Kind of sort of.
I know for many people this has been their experience, so it’s not exactly wrong.... but it’s incomplete.
Properly integrated (well placed, good room treatment, accurately calibrated EQ), many inexpensive subs will sound great, and suffer none of these effects. The problem is "properly integrated" is damn hard and damn rare. Very few hobbyists have the background to pull it off well, so few have ever heard it. They rush out, spend hours messing around, and are never are very happy because they suffer everything this quote suggests. It is not however mandatory that this occur, and with the right effort a sub can be a phenomenal addition to any music system.
Good room acoustics will make smaller speakers sound bigger, and subs easier to integrate. Room acoustic treatment will make your room friendlier to a wider variety of speakers as well. For this reason it is your first step.
The other thing that makes success for a hobbyist who is not going to engage a pro is a great audo-eq/room correction system. Right now my favorite is from JL Audio. I really like their final curves, but $$$.
Since I have all the tools to make loudspeakers, I save mega-bucks by doing my own DSP in house. :) Not everyone can afford this. So my strong suggestion to the average hobbyist who doesn’t want to pay a good pro is to get a sub with a great built-in EQ system, or rely on your receiver/processor to do this function for you.
So unless you are an acoustician, I strongly suggest relying on pros. Rely on GIK Acoustic's advice. Rely on auto-EQ systems like JL Labs, or rely on an acoustician to come and integrate the sub for you. Otherwise, budget a lot of time learning, getting measurement tools, and EQ, etc.
I went the latter way, but I started with a background in professional audio. Like with other things, I have to rely on pro's for things I don't now how to do myself if I expect good results.
My current work is in IT by the way, I won't make money on anyone following this advice or not.
Teo, "
sealed subs, sealed mains." Are you suggesting that a pair of mid-level acoustic suspension speakers with a sub could perform better than a pair of upper-level full range bass reflex speakers?
Last couple of posts very discouraging! Well, at least I have 45 days to experiment and decide. I love my system just the way it is for classical. Only want to get those lower octaves. If the sub starts to harm a hair on the head of my system, it's gone!
Well, I hope I am not one of the discouraging one's. My point is, subs can be great, but the Total Cost of Ownership is a lot higher than people realize to use them well.
I use 2 REL subs I bought used at different times, a Q150e 150 watt front firing 10" single driver, and a Q108e MKII 100 watt single 8" down firing…both from the same era, both in perfect shape costing around 200 bucks each (Ebay). I join them at the amp by sticking the appropriate wires (Canare star quad) into AQ spades and attach them all to the binding posts. 100,000 ohm ratings on each sub make them transparent to the amp’s output using REL’s "high level" Speakon input. My main speakers are relatively efficient and since changing to a 12 watt per side SE amp there is less amp signal going to the RELs now at any level (simply because the mains need less power to get the mojo), and the frequency has been set to 40 hz or so as the main speakers are good to that point (trusty test CD showed that). I personally don’t need any digital nanny DSP stuff in my listening room as the sub placement and sub level make great integration with the mains simple and effective…plus I don’t want any extra gizmos in the signal chain. Interestingly (to me anyway), with this new setup at my normal listening levels, the subs don’t seem to be working as hard (based on feeling how hot they get) and the whole rig is amazing sounding with everything I listen to, including loud classical. So, be like me, do what I do, and everything will be fine.
(((People suggest I should change amps instead, but I'm really happy with how perfectly the NuForce amps match with my system.))
That's great.... Sometimes you must go 2 steps backwards in order to get 12 forward If you put a pair of 2WQs that are sealed and high passed with your sealed main speakers and a real amp you will be way ahead of a one ported sub with digital amps while also chasing an in room bass hump that spoils your mid range. Best, JohnnyR
Wolf_Garcia 6-4-2017 So, be like me, do what I do, and everything will be fine.
Hi Wolfie,
Your advice is good, as usual, for many circumstances. But I suspect that understandably you haven’t read through a lot of this lengthy thread. If you had done so you would have seen that the outputs of the OP’s amplifiers cannot be used to drive a powered sub, as their + and - output terminals are offset from ground by 24 volts. Also they are monoblocks, which presents additional complications. And while most or all REL subs have 100K input impedances on their speaker-level inputs, as you mentioned, most or all of them have 10K input impedances on their line-level inputs. Which is too low for his preamp to drive with good results, in combination with the 22K input impedance of his amps.
So while you and a number of others in the thread have suggested REL subs, they would not be a good choice in this particular situation.
i don’t imagine I would need quite as powerful or expensive a sub as those who mainly listen to other types of music [than classical], but I may be wrong.
Indeed, I believe this rests on a misconception, albeit an understandable one; power and "exactitude" is an important basis for finesse and insight, I find, as is displacement area to cover the whole envelope and (all things being equal) make for lower distortion (i.e.: smaller cone movement for similar SPL). Sensitivity (again, all things being equal) would also be of importance, though very high sensitivity subs are harder to come by and physically incorporate, given these would likely take up a lot of space as horn loaded designs or ported dittos - insofar they're even tuned for commercial use (cinema subs here would be the better option here, rather than typical PA subs).
As commercial subs goes there seems to be consensus on sealed designs being easier to integrate with the mains, but I imagine (actually know for a fact) that properly integrated ported subs can make for an excellent extension of the main speakers, though I would add they generally sound different than sealed subs. To my mind a sealed sub generally excels over a ported ditto in being "more quiet" when not called for, or perhaps this is a way of saying that in any kind of sonic action it leaves a slightly smaller, or smoother fingerprint. To some this may translate into something missing, perhaps not least while watching films, but to others it may be just the thing, not least with music, to make it all mesh better.
From a more pragmatic point of view (even with the proviso I don’t know your main speakers) my advice would be to go with a sealed, powerful sub preferably fitted with a 15" or upwards, very powerful and larger voice coil diameter driver, and with extensive DSP capabilities for proper integration. In my own setup I use the SVS SB16-Ultra with great results (incl. the outcome with classical music) - indeed a sonic beast in the best sense of the word, in service of both insight, integration and sheer brute, effortless force when needed. Though I’ve never heard it the Funk Audio 18.0C also seems like a great choice.
I did a long time ago own a Carver Sunfire sub with a small good quality tube amplifier (can't remember the name -- very sweet sounding). Problem was a big hole in the middle of the sonic spectrum. Lows were there, highs were there; lower midrange missing. So, until now was wary of getting a sub. We'll see what transpires.
Thank you, guys, for your insights! I shall invite my local dealer for a listen (the perk of living in Malibu is that folks do not mind the drive!). My sub is tuned up onto the "invisible" level so that my primary listening to Richter and Schubert quartets wont get muddied. SBLs are pretty fast (someone called them Ferraris of loudspeakers?) but when it comes to pipe organ, they fold!!! Looking for a new house with a dedicated den, and an old bachelor uncle! ;-(
I'm glad your encouraged I just want you to realize when you hook up your amps low input imp and the subs in RCA parallel w your tube Pre amp it will see a very low imp load Lifeless may be the result best JohnnyR
As I mentioned earlier in the thread the line-level input impedance of the SVS SB-2000 is 47K, which is much higher than the line-level input impedance of many and probably most other powered subs. In combination with the 22K input impedance of the OP's amps that will result in a 15K load being presented to the preamp, significantly higher than the 10K minimum that is recommended by Conrad Johnson for the particular preamp.
I got it Al but will still wage the 15 K combine will not be optimized. Three positive things could result if he was able to High Pass with a non Ice design move to a100 k input imp amp and go at it x 2 at speaker level. its sad because its what he was really looking for in the first place. Best JohnnyR
Now retired, I was a professional classical musician (pianist.) Having played in many instrumental combinations and performed in and attended countless orchestral concerts, I well know what real instruments sound like. I simply want to enhance my already quite realistic system with more dimension. I'm hoping a subwoofer will do this.
Almarg…yeah I saw that bit about the "other" REL inputs but I choose to ignore it so I could ramble on about my RELs…so to revise: In this case, don't be like me.
I am a 50/50 jazz/classical listener, and understand what you mean. However, if i was in your case, I would not compromise and would have preferred to wait for more money to get myself a better amp or speaker, or both, and no subwoofer at all. This way you spend more for sure, but you get much more benefit for music reproduction, for all music, everyday. If you absolutely need the sub and want to keep your actual setup, the best choice and by far for sound per pound, which i personnally know about and amongst all other common names such as SVS, REL, etc... is XTZ. Their Sub 1*12 model is excellent, all necessary tuning possibilites are available, including the ability to play with open or closed vent, depending on personal perferences and/or environment, the bass is extremely firm and controlled, which would be an absolute requisite for classical and especially given the Dalquist nature which lacks bass, but which is fast, even more so with classD amp. The XTZ frequency range is wide, down to 19 and up to 160Hz. The price/quality ratio is near unbeatable, and they sell direct. You dont need a lot of power for sure, with classical you need full control and sound coherence.
rvpiano, happy to hear you've decided on a new product that can be returned or upgraded if not satisfied. Considering the subs fundamental controls and depending on the room and your personal taste you may want to experiment with its location within the room. Since every room has different properties its been my experience that the traditional placement suggestions are just that, suggestions.
With similarly controlled subwoofers I've had some luck with "the subwoofer at the listening position crawl test" to find the rooms major node then using a pair of inexpensive very long RCA interconnects from Blue Jeans or Monoprice cable to fine tune the subwoofers location. Placing the sub on an office chair or a small moving dolly may aid you in finding its optimum placement.
Good luck, hope you get the lows you're looking for.
I really don't want to start experimenting with new equipment, regardless of cost, as my current setup (which took me years to perfect) gives me the concert experience of live music I've heard the vast majority of the time. I just want to be able to hear the fundamental tones of, for example, an organ.
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