I just might do that... now that you mention it
Subwoofer for classical music listener
This is my second post on the subject of subwoofers.
My first post wasn't specific enough.
I listen to classical music 90% of the time.
Are there any classical music listeners out there who have subwoofers?
if there are, could you let me know what you have?
i don't imagine I would need quite as powerful or expensive a sub as those who mainly listen to other types of music, but I may be wrong.
My first post wasn't specific enough.
I listen to classical music 90% of the time.
Are there any classical music listeners out there who have subwoofers?
if there are, could you let me know what you have?
i don't imagine I would need quite as powerful or expensive a sub as those who mainly listen to other types of music, but I may be wrong.
203 responses Add your response
"Right now I'm listening to an audiophile pressing of "Tony Bennett at Carnegie Hall." Not having any classic "crooner" records, thanks for a new bin search! A quick lookup tells me the period presses are a good ol 6eye mono. I do own mono's of the 2 Frank/The Count on Reprise. "Frank & Basie"/"It Might As a Well Be Swing" Same year as Tony 1962 wow! What a period for music. Highly recommended if you don't have a copies already. A workout on any system along with great music. |
Well, here goes again. Changing the Y splitters from Radio Shack to thicker audiophile cables has made an improvement with the sub. Seems to have smoothed out everything. If anything, there seems to be a wider soundstage than without the sub. Please forgive my daily ramblings. This is, as they say, "a voyage of discovery." I'm now listening to a classical piece with the sub and really enjoying it tablejockey: Late fifties, early sixties: golden age of sound: tube electronics, no Dolby cutting off the highs. |
Most rooms have very uneven bass response, so if you tune things to sound good at say, 60hz, and you happen to have a 12db bump at that frequency, your ultra-low frequencies might be 15db low. I originally had an OLD Velodyne. I bought a used Velodyne SMS-1 to EQ the subwoofer, and it made a tremendous difference. Now I have an SVS-SB16 Ultra. It has 3 completely customizable EQ points, so everything is done in the sub. Unfortunately, they don't have a low pass output, so my main speakers have to run full range, making the overlap significant. The EQ helps a lot with that though. I think the SB13-Ultra might have low-pass AND EQ, but I can't swear to that. If you decide to get something like the Velodyne SMS-1, note that it will add more group delay. That may or may not be an issue for you. I still use my SMS-1 to measure the results of my EQ tweaking in the SB-16. It's a handy gizmo. |
Two ideas regarding subs that I consider very true and important are: 1- You shouldn’t hear a sub. A good subwoofer placed optimally in a room should just make the loudspeaker it is augmenting sound as if it now has response to a lower frequency. It should be invisible. 2- It is often the eigenmodes of the room you are hearing when adding a sub to a loudspeaker, the lower frequencies now reproduced exciting the rooms resonant modes, rather than the sub itself. "Room boom" is often incorrectly attributed to the sub(s). The best way to minimize both the above is to employ dipole subs, rather than monopoles. A dipole sub excites fewer room modes (no sidewall-to-sidewall, dipoles having a null to either side), leading to fewer standing waves. The Magneplanar Tympani bass panel is a great, musical sub, as is the GR Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole Direct Servo-Feedback Sub. |
I'm new to the Audiogon forums, but I too have a sub situation. I currently have an SVS SB2000 running with my MA Silver 8s (Emotiva XSP-1 pre/XPA-2 amp). Was planning to grab a second SB2000 but now thinking about upgrading to the SVS Ultra 13 and pairing it with my current SB2000...honestly I'm not sure what is best. I primarily listen to large scale symphonic works (e.g. Bruckner, Mahler, etc.) so I'm not sure the SB2000 is really cutting it. I have a pretty ungainly listening space: 24x12x15 ceiling. This is not a "forever home" but non the less where I am now. Any thoughts? |
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REL - full stop. I used to have twin REL G2 subs (one in each corner at the front). My friend, who conducts orchestras and is far more knowledgeable on classical music, was impressed enough with my system that he bought twin REL G2 subs as well. I have since upgraded to the new No25 model and plan on adding a second one when funds permit. |
I have been using an SVS model SB13-Ultra subwoofer for about 2 years and it works very well with classical and other music, I set the crossover very low and I use the sub just to pick up the "rumble" to give the music a "floor," or "in the hall feeling." It can adjust the output to get just as much base as I want. In 2 years I have never re-adjusted the output setting because it seems to work with all my music. I have used it with several speakers, including Magnepan 1.7, Thiel CS 2.7, Quads, and YG Carmels and Kipods. It has been splendid with all speakers that I have tried. SVS is seldom discussed but I believe they produce an excellent sub in the SB-Ultra series. |
"I have since upgraded to the new No25 model and plan on adding a second one when funds permit., quiltzig- If I were so fortunate, I would bow to No25, before a listening session. BRAVO! I have only seen No 25, haven’t heard a system with. No doubt its a fine sub. My ancient pair B3’s do the job, but if my system at such a level, I’d have FOUR...2 behind the listening area, equidistant as my own. About the only thing a i wish REL still did is offer a nice veneer. My subs are cherry with matching Mapleshade 4" slabs/ brass footers. No 25 would be stunning is a beautiful exotic veneer$$. I would still swap those stock footers though, just my thing. |
God bless some of you who described the short-coming of subwoofers perfectly. I have my share of struggles with them for years. My current preference is I would not consider to own a pair of speakers if they need subwoofers. The cost of getting outstanding subwoofers far exceed the additional money to spend more on getting full-range main speakers. |
My "outstanding" subs were bought used but in perfect working order, and both were inexpensive at around 200 bucks each. I built my own Neutrik Speakon festooned cables which were also inexpensive using Canare Star Quad cable. One of the the most significant benefits of a good, adjustable sub is that it frees up main speaker buying choices…a speaker that doesn't require a sub simply has a sub in it…one that can't be moved around to help tune the bass to the room, and one that requires the speaker it's part of to be larger and possibly a lot more expensive. Subs are things that encourage Freedom and the American way (!), although mine were made in England. |
RV, that sounds like either you spoke with a very confused rep, or there was a miscommunication. The high passed line-level outputs of the sub would have no way of knowing whether they are connected to a speaker having a built-in amplifier, or to an amplifier that in turn is connected to a passive speaker. You would simply connect the preamp outputs to the sub’s line-level inputs, and connect the sub’s high passed line-level outputs (left and right) to the inputs of your left and right monoblock amplifiers, respectively. You would probably then want to set the sub’s internal low pass filter to the vicinity of 80 Hz (and then fine tune by ear), since the high pass function has a fixed setting of 80 Hz. An uncertainty pertaining to how good the resulting sonics would be, though, is introduced by the fact that the output impedance of the sub’s line-level outputs does not appear to be specified. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if that proved not to be an issue with the 22K input impedance of your amps. Best regards, -- Al |
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For what it’s worth, I don’t like running my main speakers through some external crossover. I am concerned that additional electronics in the way of the main speakers will cause a loss of transparency. I let them play full range, and feed the subs by a second set of outputs on my line stage, directly to the amps on a pair of 15 inch sealed Rythmiks. I haven’t had the room measured yet, but I got them playing pretty good without muddling up the mid bass; you almost don’t know they are there, except for added bass punch when it is on the recording; even when there is no low bass in the program material, the subs seem to add air and dimensionality in the lower octaves which, surprisingly, improves the midrange as well. And I’m crossing over really low- the subs are set to start rolling off at 50hz at a fairly steep curve- 24db. Not shilling for Rythmik, but this is the second transaction I’ve had with Brian and he’s very good. My subs do not have a speaker level connection, i.e. taking the signal from your main amp to feed the subs, to lend the character of the main amp to the sub amp for increased coherence. That’s how the integrated woofers in my Avantgarde’s are set up, which benefit from the extra punch and depth of these "external" subs. I’m also messing with cheap DSP on the subs, which does make some improvements but I think getting the subs located optimally, with a minimum of room treatment and processing is the first step and getting measurements is essential for that. I do have bass traps in all 4 corners and the room sounds pretty good. Once I’ve got that sorted, and it may involve some additional room treatment, repositioning, and possibly some EQ, I’ll be cooking. I’ve only had the system up and running for a couple weeks now since I moved from the NE, and continue to dial it in. Those Blue Jeans woofer cables are OK, and cheap. I use fancy cable elsewhere in the system and it all plays together pretty nicely. I’m sure I’ll tweak and improve it more as time goes on but that’s part of the fun, so long as it doesn’t interfere with your ability to enjoy what you have. |
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(((For what it’s worth, I don’t like running my main speakers through some
external crossover. I am concerned that additional electronics in the
way of the main speakers will cause a loss of transparency. I let them
play full range, and feed the subs by a second set of outputs on my line
stage, directly to the amps on a pair of 15 inch sealed Rythmiks. I
haven’t had the room measured yet, but I got them playing pretty good))) Whart Sometimes we take 2 steps backwards to get 12 forward. Take a look at your in room response by downloading Vandertones write down 1 to 11 vertically on paper for left ch and 1 to 11 right. Now Insert Vandertones Burned CD trk 1 to 11 try and get only 8 of 11 of these tracks over 70 db simply by adjusting the preamps volume control. once you have nailed 8 of 11 over 70 db c weighted slow your ready to write down the measurements for left and then track 16 to 27 for the right channel. Please feel free to share them here Best, JohnnyR |
stfoth: Thank you so much for your encouragement with the high pass option. I had just about given up the hope of having the same quality with as without the subwoofer. Miracle of miracles! The high pass option seems to have done the trick. Preliminary tests show no seeming degradation of the signal. Of course, I just started testing and adjusting, but wow, the signs are very encouraging. Thanks again. And Al, of course thank you. Wouldn't have happened without YOU! |
If one's sub can be integrated using a mere 1st order high-pass filter (6dB/octave), there is a simple, easy, transparent way to accomplish that. Just solder a capacitor of the correct value (the formula for determining that value can be found on the 'net---it involves the power amp's input impedance and the desired corner frequency) on the power amps input jacks. |
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@audioconnection : I take your point. Believe it or not, I do not own a CD player. Oh, I’ve had many over the years, just gave them all away before I moved. I was thinking about buying a pretty good one for the vintage system downstairs, so it’s not like I’m anti-CD at this point in my life; in fact, I want one precisely because I need access to more music that isn’t available, or only at astronomical prices, on vinyl. I do use a DSP unit on the subs, as mentioned, but I’m not sure how effective it is at a 50hz crossover point (24 db slope) for the subs. The reason for my reluctance is I go directly in the mid horn with no crossover whatsoever, and with the Lamm SET, I get great midrange. As a longtime Quad Loudspeaker owner, I lived for the mids (cause there wasn’t a lot else) and want as much of that spooky ’you are there’ quality I can get (which of course is highly recording dependent). There are undoubtedly some peaks, bumps, troughs, what have you going on in the integrated bass units of the Avantgarde but I haven’t focused on processing those, together with the separate subs, to get a better blend. I’m not even sure if that’s possible, but I’d also have to go back and check the frequency of roll off for the integrated woofers (it’s a numerical designation, not a frequency), and where the mid horn picks up. I just so don’t want mess with mid horn, given the set up, which is minimalist. I have had it dialed for a long time so the integrated woofers don’t sounded pronounced compared to the horn sound; this means the bass is a bit reticent on the Avantgarde integrated woofers, in order for them to blend better with the horn., As Jim Smith would no doubt say, this is dependent on placement as well as the integrated woofer settings. I do know some people who have done completely digital crossovers for very sophisticated systems; I’m not there yet. I suppose I could buy a digital crossover or the rare analog and sell or return it if I don’t like it. But, that’s where I’m at. I am planning on having someone come in and do sweeps, measurements and advise on optimal placement. That, to me, will be money well spent, and I think you’d agree, the starting place. My goal is to optimize, rather than buy more equipment, but if more gear (or different gear) is necessary, at some point I will get there. I just had a large isolation transformer installed a few days ago, and am trying to take the sonic "measure" (by ear) of that as it burns in (if you believe it that, I know some reject it as nonsense). I’m in a new room, having just moved a few months ago, and have been working hard to get this thing to sing. regards and thanks, bill hart |
Now that I have my speakers and subwoofer are more or less in balance, I have another question. I'm connecting them with cables that are probably too long (25') and very inexpensive (about $100 for 4 individual interconnects) that I bought from SVS. Would this type of connection benefit greatly with better cabling? Would it be worth investing in more expensive cables? I'm happy with the current sound, but, you know, we're always wanting more! I don't want to go crazy with exotic very costly cables, but I'm just asking. |
Yup, cables can make difference. I forgot what you are using for your speakers and don't want to hunt through this long thread. Also, what lengths are you looking for? 25' will definitely put a damper on sound quality-especially if you are using inexpensive cables. Almarg gave me a good recommendation for sub cables. Bob |
"Where would I attach the power cable?" rv- I'm just referring to swapping the supplied stock cable your sub came with? The cable game is contentious, so I've learned over the years to tread lightly. Personally, I've joined the camp-power cords first. The "highs" you're referring to, Im assuming you've exhausted all tweaking of the subs adjustments? |
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I'm running 25' cables from preamp to sub and from sub to amp, four 25' cables in all. I could probably get away with 15' cables. I understand from SVS that's the next size down, but I'd feel comfortable with a foot or more longer than 15. I have Dalquist DQ 20 speakers. In just about all other parameters but brightness I'm very happy with the sound. I dont want to fool anymore with settings. I suspect cables will improve things. |
Thanks to Stfoth for providing the data on the SoundPath RCAs. Their price is indicated at the SVS website as $89.98 for a stereo pair of 8 meter cables, and those are the only interconnects listed, so I assume those are what RV was provided with. RV, given the lengths that are involved (even if you were to change to 16 feet), and given the somewhat highish output impedance of your preamp, and the unknown but very possibly highish output impedance of the sub’s high passed line-level outputs, it is particularly important for the cable to have low capacitance per unit length. The SoundPaths provide that, at 39 pf/meter. But of course a shorter length, such as 16 feet, would reduce the total capacitance correspondingly, and very possibly be beneficial in other ways. I could probably get away with 15’ cables. I understand from SVS that’s the next size down, but I’d feel comfortable with a foot or more longer than 15.The SVS website lists the SoundPath offerings only in metric lengths, including 5 meters, which is 16.4 feet. Another possibility for a modestly price cable having very low capacitance (12.2 pf/foot), which can be ordered in any desired length, would be Blue Jeans LC-1. Cable differences are generally system dependent and hard to predict, of course, but I wouldn’t be surprised if changing to a 5 meter length of the SoundPath cable, or a 16 foot length of the Blue Jeans cable, would provide a worthwhile benefit. Best regards, -- Al |
Al: Again, thank you for your detailed post! I'm going to trade in the 8 meter cables for the 5 meter to see if that improves things. Also, I suspect an intermittently misbehaving preamplifier tube might be the culprit since the anomaly varies from time to time. I just ordered a new set of tubes, just in case. |
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stfoth: Yes, except for lacking deep bass, I was happy with the system before I added a sub (but, for other reasons, was not happy when I hooked up the sub the normal way.) With the high-pass I started experimenting, alternately physically removing the sub and putting it back into the system. During this process I sometimes noticed exaggerated highs even without the sub. That's why I'm suspecting a bad tube may be developing in the preamp. Alternately, sometimes the system sounds fine with the sub connected. I recently had the amplifiers upgraded, so I don't think there's a malfunction there. It's not an exact science. I'm trying to cover all bases. |
