Streaming Sound Quality - Want the very best sound quality? Network Acoustics ENO...

@sns said: As debjit_g mentioned above, conversion of optical back to ethernet is somewhat detrimental, place for noise to re-enter network. And the boards in generic FMC are not optimum. Understanding this is what motivated me to upgrade to Opticalrendu.

This is what prompted me to use a Sonore oM from my NUC and an Uptone EtherRegen right before my DAC.  The only two copper/fiber conversions in the entire path.  The differences in adding both (I added each in at separate times) were subtle but definitely noticeable.

I seriously question the additional conversion for runs under 6-8m. A well shielded cat8 ethernet cable is the better solution in that case, even before discussing the quality of PSUs needed for the convertera. The Etherregen in combination with a well clocked switch is a cleaner and better solution.

I seriously question the additional conversion for runs under 6-8m. A well shielded cat8 ethernet cable is the better solution in that case, even before discussing the quality of PSUs needed for the convertera. The Etherregen in combination with a well clocked switch is a cleaner and better solution.

This didn't hold true in my system using my ears at least...

Replacing ~10 ft of ethernet from a noisy equipment closet to my audio rack with fiber made a BIG difference.   I heard a darker background and more clarity/detail, with no added harshness.   I terminated the fiber with each of the following: EtherREGEN, OpticalRendu, and $100 StarTech converter (+ after market power supply) and the results were all about the same minus differences between USB and SPDIF (my preference) which I assume to be related to my DAC.  All of these were much better than straight Ethernet to the M5 from my perspective.

Yes, my 10 ft run was not cat8 or of high quality, but the difference in sound quality vs copper was so significant I don't think buying a better 10 ft copper cable would have made up all of the differences.

Baseline:

• switch with sfp port -> 10 feet cheap ethernet cable -> EtherREGEN -> short cat8 -> Bricasti M5 -> SPDIF -> DAC

Fiber 1-SPDIF:

• switch -> 10 feet of fiber -> EtherREGEN -> short cat8 -> Bricasti M5 -> SPDIF -> DAC

Fiber 1-USB:

• switch -> 10 feet of fiber -> EtherREGEN -> short cat8 -> Bricasti M5 -> USB -> DAC

Fiber 2-USB:

• switch -> 10 feet of fiber -> OpticalRendu -> USB -> DAC

Fiber 3-SPDIF:

• switch -> 10 feet of fiber -> $100 Fiber Converter -> short cat8 -> Bricasti M5 -> SPDIF -> DAC

I'm currently running the latter as I didn't detect a drop after replacing the more expensive converters.   I've been tempted to buy another EtherREGEN to drop back in to see if I would now hear a difference vs the much cheaper converter...

@audiom3 Prior to inserting Opticalrendu I had diasy chained SOTM SMS200Neo to Uptone usb regen, I had gone back and forth any number of times leaving Uptone out or replacing, always preferred the daisy chain. I then inserted Opticalrendu forgetting that I still had Uptone in chain. Listened in daisy chain configuration for couple sessions when suddenly realizing still had Uptone (by the way powered by lps) connecting to dac. Pulled it out and shazam, so far better, even lower noise floor, and most importantly newfound sense of ease and relaxation. My digital now may match or nearly match my vinyl setup in this area, along with much higher resolving powers (need more updates on vinyl side). The Uptone was obviously putting a slight veil and masking the ease of OR. I've now removed from my chain one switch, two ethernet cables and two lps, so less complex with far better sq.

@ddafoe My ethernet solution cable was all Audioquest Vodka, my optical solutions, even with generic fmc and one ethernet conversion bested ethernet solution

I was also recently made aware of a another formerly unknown to me optical solution with the following, https://ediscreation.com/product/fiber-box/ This may be solution for me upstream of server.

For the ethernet fans here, I'm not stating with absolute certainty optical superior to ethernet, but so far my optical setups have been superior, others seem to concur with this view. I certainly hear far more deeply into recordings, and I've not heard any sound signature or flavor added with optical. Thus far my optical explorations have gone further than ethernet, the Eno may still be in my future if I wish to compare ethernet under more favorable conditions.

@sns , The Ediscreation FIBER BOX II is an optical isolation solution not unlike using fiber and two FMCs, but somewhat less clunky as it is contained in a single box.  I suspect it would work well right in front of the ENO.  They also make the SILENT SWITCH OCXO, a switch using an OCXO clock with internal LPS.   Couldn't find a review but here are some nice pictures.

There is no clocking in ethernet transmission. IT IS ASYNCHRONOUS. Do not spend your money on frivolous stuff like switches and cables. Most basic cables, AS LONG AS THEY ARE WITHIN 802.11 specs will work PERFECTLY.

Spend your money on the DAC instead. That is the most important component in a digital system.

I’m a huge fan of @richtruss and Rob Osborne’s ENO Streaming System, which I incorporated into my listening chain this past fall. Both Rich and Rob were extremely helpful with answering all of my questions and concerns about their products and how I could best use them. Placing the ENO Streaming System between my D-Link network switch and my Roon Nucleus music server was an absolute revelation. Everything sounded much smoother and more analog through my headphones. What I’m hoping is for Network Acoustics to come out with their own network switch so they could offer a true synergistic setup from a listeners router to their music server. Rich and Rob make a great product that I wish more audiophiles would try in their own music streaming systems. 

Good thread, thanks to OP and all.

It inspired me to try upgrading my ethernet cables between a Bonn N8 network switch and a Roon Nucleus.

I opted for Audioquest Cinnamon (about £100 each / solid copper core with silver) and have had very good results.

@cakyol is it possible that you don't know what you don't know? 

AS LONG AS THEY ARE WITHIN 802.11 specs will work PERFECTLY.

That's the problem a lot of them do not meet specs even though they are advertised as such.

@soma70 i know what i know. Most auidophiles (or phools sometimes) suffer from the "i paid more so i must be hearing better" syndrome, especially about wires , fuses and networking gear.

Listen to what @invalid has commented. That is almost always the issue.

99% of the so called audiophiles, and humans for that matter, once having reached about 40 years of age, will not hear anything above 16khz, let alone all the sound intricacies they claim they hear.

I invite everyone on this forum to be "real" with themselves and everyone else and comment accordingly.

@cakyol so, you are never wrong and everyone else is a "phool". nice.

Ignorance is bliss, so they say.

Thank you, finally you are realizing it 👍

Just added another small box.  I have a DJM Electronics GigaFOILv4-INLINE Ethernet Filter on the way.  I will probably position it immediately after my Bonn N8 switch and just before the Network Acoustics ENO, which is right before my server.  The GigaFOILv4-INLINE uses Fiber Optic Isolation Link (“FOIL”) technology to prevent EMI from passing through the filter.  I suspect my use of fiber in place of Ethernet cable is already effective at blocking EMI but I like the idea of having the GigaFOIL just in front of the ENO so I will give it a try and assess the results.  I may also try going back to Ethernet in place of the fiber to assess whether the fiber is redundant with the GigaFOIL in place.

Reevaluating my general philosophy that less is usually better, at least when it comes to digital stuff.  The Gigafoil arrived so my digital chain is now, 

• Comcast cable
• ARRIS SURFboard Modem
• Netgear switch
• Orbi Mesh Router into switch
• FMC converter into switch
• 45 feet of fiber from FMC
• FMC converter at receiving end
• Bonn N8 switch
• Gigafoil into switch
• Network Acoustics Streaming cable
• Network Acoustics ENO
• Mojo DejaVu Server

With the exact same configuration, except without the Gigafoil, my system was sounding really good.  The sound changed when I added the Gigafoil.  An interesting change, maybe a bit more incisive.  It still sounds very good but I need to listen more before making any better/worse judgements.  I will probably move some power supplies around in order to have the best PS (HD Plex) just before the ENO.  I may also move the Gigafoil and was wondering if just before the first converter on the upstream side may be a good spot.  I sure have enough stuff now, so just a matter of moving it around to achieve the best sound. 

@mitch2 I have my Gigafoil right after my router and before the ENO. It improved with a better LPS and I couldn’t take it out of my system. Great combo!
-Alex

As far as I am aware, the Gigafoil scales well with better power supply. So if you have one handy, try it. I think keeping the Gigafoil as close to the music server makes most sense but you never know if a different topology sounds better unless you try it.

I have the Eno streaming system and the latest version of the USB cable in my system playing 24x7 for few days, I think about 150 hrs. Initially I put all of them together as I didn't want to burn them separately and waste time.

Its probably too early to tell but listening in between the burning period, I felt there are lots of up and down - initially I liked what it did but after couple of hrs of playing time, I just couldn't bear it. So far after 100hrs, it looks like they are settling down and I am liking what I am hearing so far. I can't tell which one effected the most. I don't know if it will change further but after 200 hrs (which I hope is sufficient ?) I plan to put one at a time and evaluate.

I also placed a Perfect Path E-Card on the ENO and it made a nice improvement.

-Alex

@rareace 

It appears you’re also using a Entreq ground box, may I know what component is connected to Entreq? 

@lalitk My router

@rareace 

Thanks, that’s exactly what I had in my mind.

Anyone got to test the Muon?

Sorry I missed your question @markush

I have the new Muon ethernet filter and cable and just love them. I upgraded from their ENO line which I also enjoyed as outlined in my original post as the OP of this thread.

So how does if differ from the ENO range? Quite simply the Muon reduces the noise even further and reveals more of the music’s inner detail and beauty. My system became more resolving and musical at the same time. This is a hard combo to pull off in my experience.

I have found break in is about 100 hours or so. They start off sounding a tad too smooth. They then become very open, resolving and lively. At around 100 hours they retain their great resolution, realism and liveliness but fill in with more body and fullness. My system is more engaging than with the ENO. More details such as plucked strings, decay, and venue space become part of the experience. Improved realism and life over the ENO. It makes me want to turn up the volume and enjoy the effortless presentation. Just a wonderful upgrade.

Hope this helps!

I have the million $$$ Antipodes K50. Is there a better way to get great SQ  out of digital playback?

running Weiss 501 dac.

@glory That is one nice serverr! Always impressed by Antipodes technology, they understand how to optimize various outputs on their servers, not many do. Also have slightly different take on power supplies.

try the AES from the K50 to the Weiss. Some folks like it better than the USB.

G,

Running digital XLR 

and the sound ?

As someone recently introduced to a proper streaming setup (Orbi satellite -> Zenith Mk3 -> Hegel H390), I’ve found this thread extremely informing and will no doubt soon try both the EE and the Eno.

Regarding streaming specifically, it seemed to me that Zenith owners neglected to mention one aspect of their streamed SQ - unless it was taken for granted. Namely, is it fair to say that the SQ from flac files stored on the Zenith is the benchmark against which streamed music is compared? Clearly, any flac file read from the Zenith’s SSD will not be governed by any router or switch or ethernet cable.

While I zapped my Cds on an Audioaero Capitole 24/192 MK2 and not on the Zenith directly, I believe my streaming to now be superior to the SSD. I don’t believe that ripping is entirely lossless nor is direct reading from disc.

@antigrunge2, interesting point, but wouldn't that same logic apply to the source of the stream?  Surely Qobuz (for example) has to read from a disc somewhere, and their flac files must have been ripped from something.

My point is that consumer level cd players distort, pretty sure that Qobuz has direct streaming access from servers.

I am having trouble using ENO with Melco N1Z h/2. When I connect the ENO filter directly to Melco, there is no signal, network light not flashing. Changing cable from switch to ENO doesn't help. If I insert the ENO filter between router and switch, it works fine. Looks like the RJ45 connector of the ENO filter doesn't work when plugging into Melco directly. I wonder if any Melco N1 owner here is having the same issue? 

@liangx5 

ENO filter designed to operate and compatible with 100Mb/s speed whereas your N1Z h/2 appears to be compatible with devices that support 1Gb/s (Gigabit Ethernet only). I had the same issue (no signal) with ENO when plugged directly into Merging +player that only supports devices 1Gb/s bitrate. 

I’m a fan of Andrew Gillis, Small Green Computer, and his hardware and fiber solution.  Has anyone compared SGC components to the components mentioned above? 

@testrun I've been curious about this exact comparison for some time. Presently have Opticalrendu powered by Uptone JS2, have OpticalModule on order (supposed to ship in July) to replace generic FMC powered by lps  I will have NA Muon in house sometime in August. At present, using two generic FMC both powered by lps in front of server, optical after. Not exactly happy with the two FMC prior to server, Muon will substitute.

Thanks @lalitk for your reply.

Too bad that I cannot use ENO with Melco N1Z directly. I don't know putting it before the switch would be just as effective. Speaking of switch, doesn't Melco also sell a switch with 100mb/s ports just for audio applications? If that works with N1Z, then the ENO should also? Anyways, I ordered a RJ45 coupler so I can try using another short cable between ENO and the streaming device, see if that works...

@liangx5 

The Melco S100 switch has 4 ports rated at 100MbE speeds and 4 ports rated at 1GbE. As far ENO goes, I suggest that reach out to Rich at Network Acoustics about compatibility issues with N1Z. Hope you get this sorted out soon! 
 

@lalitk : Agreed. Rich is very responsive and helpful.

The Muon filter is compatible as I understand and I would confirm with Rich. 

Thanks @lalitk, @yoby and @grannyring. I just sent an inquiry to Network Acoustics. Shall see what they have to say. I also read in another forum that adding a 100mps switch in front of ENO should help. Since the switch I have is a managed one, Buffalo BS-GS2008, maybe I can adjust speed for the connected port down to 100mps, hope that would work.

Just got a response from Rich. What a nice and classy guy!

See below. So I will configure the switch to make the ENO work with Melco for the time being, and will definitely order a Muon in the near future.

"I’m sorry to hear you’re having trouble with the ENO filter working directly between your switch and the Melco. I’ve had a look at Melco’s website and it describes that particular device as a 1Gb/s Ethernet connection. If the Melco server won’t ‘auto negotiate’ down to 100Mb/s then the ENO won’t work as it is a 100Mb/s device.

The reason it works between your router and your switch is that those devices will work at 100Mb/s.

If their is a dedicated 100Mb/s port on your switch, try using that to the Melco, or if your switch is a ‘managed switch’ you could configure a port to be fixed at 100Mb/s.

If it makes a worthwhile sound improvement in between the router and switch, then that’s where to use it, but if you wish to return it, then of course you can do that.

We do have one product that works at 1Gb/s, which would work in your situation and it’s a much better sounding filter, the Muon Pro filter, it’s not yet on our website but we can supply it. It is a bit more expensive though at £1495

I hope that helps?

Best regards,

Rich Trussell"

Network Acoustics

Hi All,

Great thread, it's rare for me to read every post! There are very few "it's all just 1's and 0's" comments too.

Whilst I've never left music I have had a long hiatus from hi-fi but I'm now back and building up a pure digital system. I'm deliberately working at the budget end of the scale to see what's possible in terms of sound quality however I'm happy to add and remove components over time in pursuit of great sound (for me).

My setup is pretty simple and basic compared to all of you guys:

5G (Mobile) Router

certified cat 6a to TP-Link Switch

AudioQuest Cat6 Pearl to 10Gtek FMC

10Gtek Fibre to 10Gtek FMC

AudioQuest Cat6 Pearl to ifi Zen Stream (12v ifi iPower 2 SMPS)

WireWorld Chroma 8 USB to ifi Zen DAC v2 (5v ifi iPower X SMPS)

I also have a pair of ifi AC iPurifiers in the power strip.

Everything sounds pretty good, but I can tell there is more to be had here. I have over 30 years in a wide variety of IT roles but I'm not in the "it's just 1's and 0's" camp where audio is concerned.

With my "budget" hat on I have ordered a reasonably discounted EE 8Switch that I intend to place between the second FMC and the Streamer. I've also got a couple of other iPower X's on order one of which will grace the Router and my Zen Can.

My first (of many questions) for the experts here is: my Router has a spare switch port - should I plug the first FMC directly into this, or leave it in the TP-Link (along with the "rest of the house network")?

Secondly, what's the consensus on the FMC's - shall I leave them in the path or remove them? (I'm happy to experiment of course).

I've got my eye on various other upgrades but at some point, the dollars/pounds will be spent on the streamer or DAC rather than cables and digital magic boxes.

Other than this, thanks for a great post!

@jabbaman 

Welcome back to the pursuit of great audio. IMO, you have a decent streaming setup with iFI Zen combo. My question is what is your time line in terms of upgrading the streamer and DAC? If you planning to keep the Zen combo for a while, then i would replace the wall warts power supply (SMPS) on both to a LPS (linear power supply).  You can get a very nice LPS that can power both Zen’s. This is where you get the most bang for your buck and improvements in SQ. 

As far as upgrading the Ethernet signal path, It’s a hot mess. So many ways you can tweak the signal chain. My advise, keep on experimenting and find that sweet spot. I believe in ‘less is more’ in the Ethernet path. The EE8 on the way, experiment with and without the FMC. My experience with FMC’s is not great so I recommend trying ENO passive filter at some point in-between your EE8 and Zen stream. 

Have fun and share your findings! 

@lalitk, thank you for taking the time to reply, much appreciated.

I'm sure I'll keep the Zen stack for at least six months, probably longer. Do you have any particular LPS's in mind to recommend that can power the Stream and DAC?

I'm aware that power supplies are a whole different rabbit hole of potentially infinite tweaking!

As an experiment today I have taken Ethernet out of the equation entirely and enabled Wi-Fi on the Zen Stream. I do have a fairly good Wi-Fi setup in the house and it's usually performant and reliable. What I have noticed is that the sound quality is absolutely flawless, the bass is strong, the vocals are clear and well-defined, the sound stage is wide and the silent moments on acoustic tracks are completely silent. I'm now wondering whether this might be the way to go as Wi-Fi itself has no interference. I could potentially further upgrade the Wi-Fi mesh and feed it properly with good power and who knows?

“Do you have any particular LPS's in mind to recommend that can power the Stream and DAC?”

@jabbaman 

I have used iFi and JCAT LPS. The are so many other brands, I suggest that you start a new thread on LPS recommendations if you prefer not to weed through threads here :-) Please be sure to state your budget and voltage specs of Zen combo. I would pick a LPS manufacturer that doesn’t cheap out on DC cables. The quality of DC cables matters too! 

Thanks @lalitk, I'm a fan of iFi Power so I will likely stick with them for the time being.

I've just wired in the EE 8Swtich. I really didn't want this to be better, even a notch.

But, I'll be keeping it. The only word I have is 'phenomenal'.

I'm not going to bother putting the FMC's back into the chain as this sounds wonderful right now.

For interest I'm going Router, Audioquest Pearl Cat6, EE 8Switch, included Chord C-Stream Cable to Zen Stream.

I will have to try out the ENO next I guess, and no doubt different power and Ethernet cables too! :)