Streaming 102

+1 @soix

What improvements are you looking for and what sound characteristics are most important to you? This is important in choosing the right DAC (or anything really). IMO both streamer and DAC are important, but I think you’re on the right track upgrading the DAC first.

op - answer the questions if you want useful help

Hi, i posted several times on this feed about my new Bluesound version 2021. After settling in i find there is a noticeable pause before playing and stopping. Does anyone know if a pause after selecting "play and stop" is normal for a "hardwired" setup? 

Hi stray_cat, when you say you moved to a network bridge do you mean the dCS unit. I will, I think, soon be ordering a new Mystique X and need to think about a good streamer. Also if you could please provide a little more info on how you came to choose the V3 and what it replaced. I was after a V3 but they seem impossible to find. This tells me they must be exceptionally good.

@OP, the streamer is as important as the DAC. Ignore the tired old bits is bits and it's just 0,s and 1's

@fittebd said

I am a true believer in the Sonore line.

+1. OP, my experience was that improving on the bluesound node2's sound and functionality as a streamer only may cost 3-5x $$ commitment for 2-3x SQ gains.

If you're patient and find a Signature Rendu (the one with spdif & I2S outputs, no USB) at a fair price, it is an *exceptionally* good sounding streamer! I used one with an SOtm 200 neo (both currently sidelined) with bubbleupnp server on the Sotm as the server with network switch in between and coax out to my Mystique v3 dac and still fondly remember how enjoyable it was but decided to simplify with a network bridge.

If not for the complicated operation & inconvenient way to access Tidal & Qobuz, I would happily live with its great musical performance. I'm very comfortable keeping them as backup. *Very* musical and resolute streaming for >$2K. BTW the Signature Rendu uses a gem of a swiss-made MR MOD streaming board from abc-pcb.ch. Sonore also paid special attention to its spdif output implementation.

Hope this helps.

@mrdon   Congratulations.

in many ways there are huge differences in streaming… now too much music. Now it can become exploration. Then you  have to be able to find your way back. Also, how do you find your way into new categories and follow the stuff you begin to like. It is great, I have always been an explorer. I have added hundreds of albums to,my favorites, but only go back to them when I get lazy, like Sunday mornings. 

I am just adding a post since i just unboxed and set up a Bluesound Node (2021 version). Perfect for desktop application. Sounds sophisticated and surprisingly clear. Now if i can get use to streaming music from BlueOS/Roon versus Tidal. A big plus is being able to change songs without clicking, just reach and the arrows light up, also stop or pause. I even managed to get Roon working so some progress on that front.

I had a Lumin T2. Wanted a 1 box solution. But my Lumin U1 mini through my Schitt Yggdrasil sounded way better. So I sold the T2. Also ran the T2 through the Yggdrasil and it sounded better that way. It's the difference between an R2R DAC and a Delta Sigma DAC, if nothing else. U1 mini plus Yggdrassil is about same cost as a T2.  Am using an SBooster PS with the mini. That helps also. I am of the opinion that the combo Lumin U1 mini, Schiit Yggdrasil, SBooster likely the best sound for the buck you're gonna be able to find.

Let’s not forget the Innuos line of streamers.

I went through a few phases of this. I cannot say enough how both do matter.  A bad streamer can send noise to DAC. 
 

I can also say tons of deals out there used. Hunt and find and save a ton. I got a Sonore Rendu Signature SE and PSAudio Directstream DAC for almost exactly $5000 off Facebook and eBay. They go for about $10k new. Amazing sound. 
 

I am a true believer in the Sonore line. DACs i have only owned a few so not much help other than a recommendation for PSAudio. You will be much happier with the Sound quality by splitting your funds and upgrading both. 

One option if you decided to move on from the Esoteric is one of the Bryston BDP products.  In addition to Streaming Tidal/Qobuz is attaching an external DVD drive and playing or ripping your CDs to external storage.  Then your digital stream and CD library is all under one interface control.  I have been going to the library and checking out jazz and classical CDs and ripping those to local storage ,a small Terabyte flash the hangs off my BDP.

The BDP series stuff ain’t cheap but a used BDP-2 can be had for about $1.5k.  But this investment its a platform you can build on.   I found a BDP -pi for less than $600 but that model is discontinued along with the 1 and 2 series but they still support them and there is an active community over on audiocircle. Manic Moose interface is widely panned but it works and those units are all Roon Ready endpoints.   

Vinson totally wrong there is a very large improvement moving from anode to a real server

The cleaner the signal fed to the dac the better your dac will

sound

We sell servers from 432evo the sonic

difference between models is easy to hear

Bit quality does affect a dac

DAVE AND TROY

audio intellect nj

US IMPORTERS 432EVO MUSIC SERVERS

The streamers job is to interface with the service in a robust way. 

Node2i is very stable and 0s and 1s are all the same really. 

Upgrading the DAC will make a big difference. 

Get a MQA DAC if you are interested in using Tidal 

I own the Yggdrasil and give it two thumbs wayyyy up. 

what hasn’t been discussed to you so far is the ease of streaming with associated software. I own a Bluesound Node in a bedroom system, and the Beaty of it is bulletproof software that doesn’t crash and hardware that robustly comes back from being accidentally turned off (like with loss of power). The software interface matters a lot.

 I use an Aurender N100H with my Yggdrasil, and one reason I got it is that the controlling software was intuitive and easy to use, a bit more sophisticated than the Bluesound but with a steeper learning curve. This combo sounds much, much better than the Bluesound. However, when this unit loses power, the return to functionality is not graceful. Often several reboots are required, and I mean hard reboots. It is not possible to follow the software commands from a controlling iPad, as the unit doesn’t communicate after losing power. The Bluesound is a much more robust consumer product.

so my recommendation is to play around with controlling the server before you buy. 

Its a bit of a nuanced issue. At its simplest, the DAC has a greater impact on sound than the streamer. But a really well engineered DAC with well isolated USB input, and really good FIFO re-clocking will obviate the differences between most streamers (sources).

As to DAC quality - the BlueSound, while nice, and you like it, is a low bar. I have done extensive comparisons with the Schiit Modi 3 even (that’s the $99 one) and the Modi outperforms it, driven from a Mac.

As you probably know, i firmly believe the future of digital will be on computers, and the sooner you move to such a platform and then work out the kinks, the better. So a DAC (Denefrips, Yggy, Mytek, blah, your call) would be my string first priority. Get it right and you can fiddle around with what feeds it for ages.

Hey, people enter this hobby to mess around with setup. Here’s your chance to fiddle in digital :-)

Never, ever underestimate the sonic value of really good electrical isolation and jitter control. And don’t be fooled by the fact that everyone lists "galvanic isolation" of the input. There are good ($$$) ways and cheap ways to (not) accomplish this.

Evidence: I took an old DAC with SPDIF input. It was $4k in the day. Sounded OK compared to the same designer’s modern products at a similar pricepoint ($2800) and better than his $700 current product (With SPDIF). Then i built an installed (design! build! fix! drill! dremel! action!) a USB --> SPDIF/I2S interface board, built a really clean isolated power supply for it, made sure it had extensive jitter reduction, and installed. The 30 year old product rocketed to first place; maybe a shade behind the $2800 modern product, but with better "weight" to the sound, and maybe a shade less detail and 3-dimensionality. But this is 30+ years old!!!!

Its not magic. Its engineering. And care. yea, there are some unexplained mysteries in that digital feed, but every year they get smaller.

G

The t2 does gave a usb input which can also be set as an put put

An amazing dac is the bricasti m3

It too has a network card and digital inputs

Dave and troy

AUDIO INTELLECT NJ

LUMIN MYTEK, BLUESOUND BRICASTI DEALERS

mrdon

If you are using a Ethernet connection to your Node, that is hardwired.  If instead you are using the Nodes WiFi, then you are not hardwired.  
 

OP

do you play SACDs?

For my money, there's hardly a better value in HiFi than the Bluesound Node2.

Expect to spend at least 5x-10x more for an equivalent feature set with better SQ.

Sure, the new Lumin P1 looks wonderful. At ~$10K, it ought to. Although it doesn't even use the top of the line ESS DAC chip (two ES9028PRO instead of one or two ES9038PRO chips).

If you're convinced you'll hear a significant difference with a separate, dedicated DAC (compared to the one built into the Node), then there may be no need for a new streamer.  Just pipe the Node 2 into the DAC. 

Another option would be a new integrated streamer/DAC/pre-amp to replace the Node entirely. Possibilities:

Bryston BDA 3.14, Matrix Element X, Exasound S88 (or the new S82 when it's out), Cambridge Edge NQ.  These all have different strengths/weaknesses relative to each other.   I have the Element X, which is the least expensive of these options at ~$3400.  The Edge NQ seems to offer the best feature set and usability.  Bryston has the longest warranty.  Stereophile gives the S88 an A+ rating;  I've never heard it, but suspect it would be the best of the bunch for sound quality (or if you ever want to venture into multichannel sound). For whatever it's worth, the Element X and the Exasound S88 both use the ES9038PRO DAC chip.

If you do want a separate, dedicated streamer then I'd agree the Sonore products (ultraRendu etc.) are worth a look. They are Roon-ready and also can function as  HQ Player network audio adaptors.

I stream a Bluesound Node 2i with a Topping D70 DAC using Qobuz. Really like it. I could spend more on a streamer and DAC and it might sound better than CDs or vinyl, but I’ve spent enough and that’s good enough for me.

I think you need to do some comparisons on your own to get a sense of how much difference a new DAC or streamer might make.

Do you have a CD player? If so, the first step is to compare a CD with the Qobuz stream of the same version. Do this with a few of your favorite CDs. I'm streaming through my ASUS laptop into a PS Audio PerfectWave MK II DAC and I can tell you that the Qobuz stream sounds virtually identical to a CD played through the same DAC with my PS Audio transport. I wouldn't expect a stream to actually sound better than a CD so I'm comfortable that my streaming setup is giving me good SQ.

If you get the Schiit DAC it will be easy to compare the new DAC with the one built into the Node. Again, try it and see how much difference it makes. I'm going to bet that it will be hard to tell them apart but please report your results if you do this. Each time you upgrade use your CD player as a reference to see how much difference it really made. This is a great way to bring yourself back to earth when your confirmation bias is telling you that the several thousand dollars you just spent has brought the lusty audio fairies into your listening room.

I'm skeptical that most audiophiles can actually hear the difference between an expensive streamer and a Node if they participated in a blind test. The other thing to consider is that the Node has one of the best operating systems of any streamer available. Even though my laptop is doing fine as a streamer I'm going to get a Node for the file system and its ability to handle Roon.

@joeyfed55  - I’ve been through a similar journey. Initially I had a Node 2 (prior to 2i) but wondered how much better it could get. I ended up buying a Mytek Manhattan II DAC w/network card. I got a little bit of a deal during early COVID days - just north of your $5k target. I really couldn’t believe the difference. The Node sounds good but the Manhattan is just amazing. Soundstage, space between instruments, being able to understand lyrics I’ve been listening to all my life (think REM). 
 

The Manhattan II is being replaced by a unit that will act as a Roon core - my unit is just Roon compatible. I am very happy with Mytek, but my point is broader. I would strongly encourage you to sink the additional cask into digital - for me it was well worth the effort. 
 

Matt

Hi, I just spoke with a rep. at Crutchfield and tried to establish or determine if i use an {ethernet cable from a switch} {coming from my router} and connect the bluesound via Coax to my DAC (Pontus II) which is connected to my pre-amp as well as my Amp. would that be considered hard wired. If so, how does the Bluesound Node connect with my BlueOS app or for that fact Roon on my computer other than wifi. Any thoughts or feedback would be greatly appreciated..    

Hmm. Missing in action for three days - 25, 26, 27.

Best not to panic.

Write off the player. Rip everything u own now get the rest from Qobuz that you don’t own.   Get the streamer and DAC separately. You won’t look back. Highly recommend the Sonore line. Under $1500 and leave the rest for a good Dac that can do it all. 

Just found out the T2 doesn't have inputs. Heard the Aurender A 10 would suit my purpose. Never heard DSD fuzztone3, can you elaborate?

You are writing off DSDs with Schiit. I can’t do t.

hat.

I think if I kept the SACD player I could connect it to a T2 and use it's DAC. It would probably sound better as the Esoteric is old and I know DACs have evolved significantly. The Esoteric has always pleased me with it's sound though. Decisions, decisions, decisions but I am not in a hurry and will keep options open. Can deal with the Node2 and turntable while the player gets it's drawer repaired.

Thanks, upon further reflection is it time to sell the SACD player and look for a transport/streamer/DAC to integrate all? This will be an end game for me, no upgraditis to follow. What could I expect for 5k used? I appreciate  it.

@joeyfed55 if you just want a pure streamer, because you're going to use the Yggdrasil anyway, then the Lumin U1 or U1 Mini is what you'd want. The T2 includes analog outputs so you don't need a separate DAC. However maybe you want both the T2 and Yggdrasil to have the two DAC options, as they sound pretty different in my experience. You would need a separate DAC like the Yggy to connect your Esoteric CD player.

Alternatively the new Lumin P1 streaming DAC + preamp has digital and analog inputs, so you could also connect your CD player to that. And the P1 has its own outstanding analog output and all the Lumin streaming features. But it is more expensive.

Of course there are other streaming-only and streaming DAC options, besides Lumin, but I do think Lumin is one of the best choices which is why we decided to carry them.

If you can somehow come up with the bucks for a T2 I think that might satisfy you for a very long time

Thanks soix4, I am in no hurry as I am really enjoying the Node2. Just fishing for some experience and knowledge from the community. I mostly listen to jazz and classical and have 4.5 records that I play on the Kuzma StabiR with 4point11 in addition to many cds. The rest is a Luxman 509X, Pass XP-25 phono and ML 11As with REL S812s.

Give the Denafrips Pontus ll Dac a try. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

I guess what I need to know is what 1k or so streamer I could pair with the Shiit Yggdrasil that would better a Lumin T2. Also a consideration is I have many cds that I play with an Esoteric X-01 D2. Should I consider putting a transport into the mix that would allow for playing/upsampling my cds and streaming and sell the SACD player? You can probably tell I am a novice so excuse my ignorance, and thank you.

What improvements are you looking for and what sound characteristics are most important to you? This is important in choosing the right DAC (or anything really). IMO both streamer and DAC are important, but I think you’re on the right track upgrading the DAC first. The Yggie is great, but there are a ton of great DACs out there of various flavors and architectures so it pays to take your time and do your due diligence.