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Stillpoints - snake oil?
Anybody here using Stillpoints Ultras? My dealer thinks highly of them, but I am very suspicious.
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Guys I will post an intersting demo protocall I designed when I worked at Innovative Audio in NYC. The store has a whole bunch of solid steel racks which are a metal frame with little tiptoes and mdf shelves. I would do a demo comparing a $995 Rega Apollo CD player vs a $3,000 Classe CD player. Started with both players on top of their racks connected to the same integrated amplifier and speakers. I would play the $1k Rega which sounded good and then the more expensive $3k Classe player. Then started by adding a set of $60 Black Diamond Racking Cones under the Rega, and the Rega improved in focus, macro dynamics. Still not as good as the Classe but audibily better. Then added a Black Diamond Racing Shelf which was $900 slab of carbon fiber and other damping materials and another set of cones and boom the Rega sounded way better than the Classe, the sound stage was wider, details were clearer, macro dynamics were improved. The $995 Rega now outperformed the $3,000 Classe, then at the last part of the demo took the Rega off the isolation base and put on the Classe and boom the Classe was now sounding again far better. The demo was so conclusive than in one year I sold $60k worth of Black Diamond Racing product. The moral of the story is that removing vibrations from both solid state and tube gear makes that gear perform better it is really that simple. With all of these devices it is not hard to arrange for an in home demo. We had a similar experience now with the Isoacoustics pucks a set of their $20 pucks made a very audible improvement under a set of ATC SCM 19 we just lifted up the speaker put down three pucks and listened to the same track, the importer’s rep heard it, I heard it and two customers in the shop heard it. So it was either mass hypnosis or these devices do tend to work. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
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Interesting thread--I am considering using Ultra SS with the Ultra Bases as footers for my new speakers (which are now being built). I have not had the opportunity to try any Stillpoints till now so would be interested in feedback when used in this application. I looked at a variety of options (trying to find a less costly alternative) but am persuaded, for a variety of reasons, that the Stillpoints may be the best way to "float" the speakers in my room (suspended wood floor above basement level). One thing I took into consideration was the fact that two very respected designers of high end gear (David Berning amplification and Artisan Fidelity turntables) apply them as standard on every product. |
@dodgealum If your speakers are a custom build, you should have them made with 1/4-20 threaded brass inserts at the four corners and at front and back edge center. That way whatever Stillpoints or other footers you choose can be screwed in directly at three or four points without resorting to the bases. I use four Stillpoint Ultra 5s with Merlin VSMs and TTs. In other applications I use Starsound Audiopoints and Rhythm and Apprentice platforms and racks. One nice thing about Stillpoints is that they are portable between components and racks. The Starsound stuff sounds great, but is more of a whole system concept. |
@david_ten I never tried three with the Merlins, as these speakers have a small crossection that gets tippy with three points. However, I have used up to five Ultra 5s and Ultra SSs under electronics and turntables with incremental improvements. Same thing with Starsound Audiopoints under an Esoteric K-01X CDP, where I use six Audiopoints into a Rhythm rack. BTW, even after all of that, the Esoteric benefits from a Stillpoints LPI record weight at the center of its aluminum top plate! |
@david_ten Unfortunately, the profile of my current speaker is too narrow for a Starsound platform. It’s difficult to compare the two manufacturers, as Starsound racks are complete systems and Stillpoints are footers. I do prefer Stillpoints for TTs, as they can also function as leveling devices. @tobor007 The theory is that a good footer also serves to conduct vibration out of a component to earth. |
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@dgarretson Thank you. My issue with Star Sound (I'm sold on their performance) is around ’tippiness’ since I have a 4 year old son. Had I not had this concern for the past two years or so, I’d likely have their system for my speakers. Townshend Seismic Isolation Platforms are my top choice, for safety reasons; however, my dealer is advising Stillpoints over Townshend for performance. @elizabeth The Townshend platform is easily adjustable at all four points. |
@djones51....What is your problem ?..........@geoffkait, shouldn't it be fear and loathing ? I was a believer of a product called Anti Vibration Magic, or, AVM ( unfortunately out of business I believe ), and know first hand, by listening, that this stuff works. Same for Dynamat, and other similar products. I am talking about " inside the components ". I have taken amps, such as an Adcom GFA 535 series 2, or a Hafler DH220, and made them sound more like the big boys, with their 1/2 inch aluminum faceplates and heavy duty chassis's. Same with preamps, dacs, transports, etc. I am a tweaker, no doubt, and have been for 50 years. First one to put mortite under the platters of turntables ( out of all those I knew ), to eliminate ringing. All of this damping and isolation matters, and these products, whether snake oil to some, makes a difference, by listening. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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Thanks, @dgarretson. My Apollo's will be fitted with 1/4-20 threaded inserts. My plan is to remove the cap on the Ultra SS and thread the body into the Ultra Bases, which will rest on the floor. The body of the Ultra SS will thread directly into the inserts on the speakers. Speaking with the folks at Stillpoints directly, they recommended this approach as a way of increasing the surface area where the Stillpoint interfaces with the floor (no dimples) and also increasing the effectiveness of the Ultra SS. I'll report back on how it works. My plan is to run the speakers in for a month or so, evaluate the sound with just basic spiked footers and floor protectors and then swap in the Stillpoint Ultras/Bases so I can evaluate any changes in the sonic presentation. Should be fun! |
I find that spikes for speakers work to some extent as do sorbothane footers for electronics but I get much better results with stick on sorbothane. backed with 4 layers of electrical tape to create what is known in mechanical engineering as constrained damping. These I use on speakers, headphones, amps and cd players. Here are the key points: 1) use small squares of sorb, no more than 1 inch square, 2) use dense sorbothane 70 duro is what to look for, 3) use as thick sorb as you can get, 1/4 to 1/2 inch, I have not used 1 inch but Sorbothane notes on its site that thicker gives better damping of low frequencies. 4) fastening is critical, 3m stick on is pretty good but I cannot find 1/2 inch with it. I use one of Sorbothane's recommended but expensive glue, Lord 7650 for this and once it cures it is very good. There is a fair bit of experimentation going on with these types of damping material, eg most Sennheiser owners are unaware that the HD 800's use such material in the headband (yes vibrations travel in most phones through the headband) I see the HD 820 mentions " an inner damping element" in the headband. At other times they refer to a space age material or a polymer (sorb is a polymer BTW) . The usual law of diminishing returns just doesn't apply to these mods. $10 of sorb and tape is going to sound like a couple of thousand dollars have been spent. See this thread for the history of work on this topic. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-s... |
In a recent Hi-Fi+ magazine article the journalist interviews and follows a Hi-Fi consultant. This consultant is employed by people to come over to their home and he spends time aligning the system: speakers, racks, cables etc. Under each component he places three cork sanding blocks, sold for £2 each at hardware stores. He swears by them. I am planning to try this next time I pass a hardware store. I tried Stillpoints under my cdp/dac and under the amp. Made no difference at all to my ears. I use the Townshend seismic rack corner supports on my rack, this isolates the whole rack effectively. Townshend told me that with the rack fully isolated in this way there would be less gain from isolating individual components. Maybe that’s why the stillpoints didn’t work for me? Having said that, at the Munich Hi-Fi show I discovered Coral Copulare risers and bought 3 - they are made of synthetic coral. They work well under the cdp/dac and are a bargain (100 Euro for three). They did nothing under the amp. Having had great success with IsoAcoustic Gaia feet on my speakers I’m interested in their component feet. They use a similar science to Townshend, decoupling with air and pressure rather than with steel, and the Townshend method seems to get better results for me (on a suspended wooden floor). |
@duckworp---Have you considered getting Townshend Seismic Pods (or platforms, etc.) for using under your speakers? That is suppose to be one of their most effective uses, so if you’re happy with the Seismic Corner Supports, you might be with the Pods as well. I have them under my Townshend Rock Elite turntable, and am sold. I’ll be getting them for my speakers soon. They are about the same price as the IsoAcoustics GAIA 1's. |
Good to see people tuning! It’s important to remember, no two systems are going to be "Tuned" the same. The Audio Trilogy comes down to 3 simple parts Electrical, Mechanical and Acoustical. The "Method of Tuning" you use is as important as your tuning tools. "Everything affects everything else" is what tweaking your system is all about. Snake Oil=Not Understanding. The faster you get past the "snake oil" theory, the sooner you will start learning how to voice your system in. The key to understanding is when you get to the place where you realize your audio signal is a "variable". Once you get to that point, then you can explore just how variable. Lower mass systems are more tunable than high mass. High mass systems are more locked into a fixed sound. Problem with having a fixed sound (one sound) system is all recordings are different. High mass systems typically play less recordings’ recorded codes. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s all a choice. Low mass systems allow for a wider vibratory response. Two sides A system that you dampen is going to play one sound, more than a system where you use mechanical transfer and variable tuning. Mechanical transfer works very much like a musical instrument. As you make adjustments to the transfer points you gain control over the signal. Fields An audio signal falls into the category of influence of fields. Just as you tune your system mechanically you are also tuning your system’s fundamental forces. Mechanical transfer is a part of this, but so is the electromagnetic field, and the mechanical/acoustical effect. They all work together as well as influence each other. It’s pretty basic science and as your system becomes more of a tool and less of brand name faceplates, that’s when the hobby can really take off for you. Michael Green |
michaelgreenaudio A system that you dampen is going to play one sound, more than a system where you use mechanical transfer and variable tuning. Mechanical transfer works very much like a musical instrument. As you make adjustments to the transfer points you gain control over the signal. >>>>>I agree that one should transfer mechanical energy (including acoustic energy and residual energy) rapidly out of the component. The problem arises when you *allow* mechanical energy transfer from the structure to the component, I.e., by not (rpt not) *isolating* the component from seismic energy. Seismic energy in the frequency range 0 to 20 Hz and higher isn’t good for anyone, no matter how you slice it. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. As for damping, there are Dampers and there are Dampers. Obviously, “over-dumping” is never a good idea, as Acoustic Revive has stated. I think dismissing all damping is kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water. |
Really, this is all you need. https://www.supplyhouse.com/DiversiTech-MP-2E-EVA-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8 Read the 43 reviews! |
As a machinist and field tech. I spent a great deal of time analyzing, identifying and eliminating vibration in complex, rotating industrial machines - everything from high speed turbines and planner heads to large, low speed scrubber fans and everything in their connective drive assemblies and surrounding structures. Aside from out of balance, the major causes of what could be, or become destructive vibrations, was the same as we see in audio - looseness anywhere in the system; all orders of harmonics as related to the resonant frequency of the machinery; the transfer of outside vibration or interference. For issues, other than out of balance, the solutions to eliminate vibration were the same for a 10 million dollar turbine, as for a home audio system - address looseness, couple to reduce or control resonance and isolate to reduce or eliminate outside interference. I agree with Elizabeth’s earlier statements regarding cheep, sensible methods of addressing these issues. Once you understand where the problem is, it doesn’t have to cost a thousand dollars to solve the problem....Jim |
Re. Mapleshade: I just had a look at their site and their products seem sound and well thought. I'm a fan of solid butcher block bases and iso pads, as a platform for components, particularly TTs and CDPs. Also the design of the three point tips on the top side of their Micropoint Megafeet, although a bit pricey, is a good design to insure a good coupling to the component. On standard designed tip-toes, I put a thin disc of dense felt, between the flat base of the tip-toe cone and the component - to reduce the chance of vibrations between the tip-toe and the component. @twoleftears: Looks like a good product. They should be very effective for dampening and isolation. At that price - what's to loose....Jim |
Regarding Stillpoints: WOW - very fancy! At $695.00 pr. footer, so about $2,100. per component - it seems like a real expensive way to handle the problems of vibration and resonance in an audio system, when there are other (as, or more effective) ways to solve those problems, with considerably less cost. Not judging how anyone spends their money - just sayn...Jim |
A somewhat obvious thought (to me at least) is that the dealer should be willing to demo identical systems with and without Stillpoints to give prospective purchasers a chance to hear any differences without having to take them home first. I understand that each of us might not get the same results with our own systems as the ones in the store but if you don't hear any differences between the two (or three or more if application variations are possible) whilst there, you likely won't at your home either.... |
@ethiessen1 Depending on how well the system, at the audio shop, was set up in the first place, I would say you would hear a difference between, without and with the Stillpoints. Most likely, with the Stillpoints, the stage would seem slightly larger, with a bit more clarity and definition through the upper and mid range and possibly a tighter bass. A smooth sales person - with a customer having deep pockets and a willingness to spend any amount to get the slightest bit better sound - may well swing a quick $2K - $5K sale on a box of fancy goods (not counting anything for speakers). The thing is - for a small fraction of that cost (probably less than $100.00 per component) you could accomplish the same difference, using iso mats, brass tip-toes, a roll of rubber no-skid drawer liner and a thin sheet of dense felt. For a few hundred dollars more, you can add in a couple of 3" or 4" maple butcher blocks. When used in conjunction with iso pads and tip-toes, they do help - especially with TTs, CDPs, transports and DACs. Also, I've found that small bags filled with sand or shot, can work well for dampening. Wither in the audio shop, or in your home, taking steps to eliminate vibration and resonance, almost always has a sonic pay off...Jim |
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I had a customer once that had the brackets with speakers just sitting on the shag carpet. I drilled and tapped two holes in each bracket, each near the ends. Then screwed in long carpet piercing spikes that where long enough so the speakers looked like they where hovering just over the top of the carpet. It really tightened up the bass and looked good too! |
@elizabeth Aside from drilling and installing 1/4-20 T nuts, or threaded inserts, to accommodate threaded spikes - my first inclination would be to try a set of leather, shot bags. Make ea. bag long enough to go across the width of the base and maybe 4" or 5" wide and a couple of inches thick. Lay one across the front and one across the back of ea. speaker base. I'm using some small (about 6" x 3" x 1.5") leather shot bags from my shop, laid across the metal feet of my Maggie 1.7s. Not only did it solve the problem of the speakers migrating on the carpet (only a quarter of an in. or so per mo. but enough to affect their off axis imaging) but also made an overall improvement in detail and air. I'm happy with the results, but now have to make some that are a bit more decorative and a little higher on the WAF scale...Jim |
I am a Stillpoints user. Stillpoints recommends placing the Ultra SS or the more expensive Ultra 5’s under speakers first. I ignored this and isolated first with Ultra Mini (least expensive) under the components, but not the amps. I then added Ultra SS under a pair of Focal 1038be I had at the time resting on carpet over concrete - the difference was not subtle, the sound became more controlled across the range, down side is it took 4 each, plus adapters between Stillpoints and the speaker. At this time, I got in new amps and waiting for new speakers, costing 5X that of the Focal while still playing the Focals - it sounded very good, enough where I wish I pocketed the difference but addiction prevailed and the new speakers were on their way. The new speakera were on manufacture spikes and I then tried Ansuz Dark DTC followed by Stillpoints Ultra SS - again realizing a more controlled sound emitting from the speaker. I will be moving to the Ultra 5s under the speakers as budget presents itself as the SS did their job and now can assume the 5’s will get me better than 5% more result. At 5% the purchase has to be in the buy, meaning a deal. All other gear floats on Ultra SS, and soon 6 under the DAC and server, again the 6 need to be had at a deal. Afternarket is such that it is an industry in to itself. Componet and Speaker companies leave these tweaks out as it’s a personal choice as they don’t know what the entire system looks like or the environment it resides in. Cost also becomes the factor, they would have to up charge 25% plus for manufacture and carrying costs. There are a lot of examples in auto, boats and even homes. Why does kitchens in new homes not include a SubZero refrigerator, it’s only $10K on a six figure house? Isolation works, as does treatment and a solid power foundation - these items can help shape a moderately priced system into a great sounding system and stupid priced systems like I am running question the amount of money spent where I did not have to go all in so to speak even after following the disciplines of power, isolation and treatment. My falling off a few times to from the discipline resulted in buys of uber priced gear that sometimes I remorse of course until I hit play :-) |
I am a Stillpoints user. I tried about a dozen other similar vibration devices under the same components to arrive at the ones that I use. Under my VPI TNT VI, I use a Townsend sink (solves VPI’s poor isolation problem). I had major vibration problems (my equipment sit on shot/sand filled heavy steel welded stands 25'+ from the speakers in an equipment alcove). Under my rubber footed, custom made pre-amp, I use Stillpoint Ultra SS. Under my EAR Acute CD player, I use ultra-minis Under my Bryston BIT 20-isolation transformer, I use Ultra SS pointed side down. Under my large 125w. tube monoblock amps, I use ultra-minis. I swapped different types of Stillpoints as well as base up or down as well to determine what sounded best. The older Aurios were good under turntables but I found them to be on the bright side. The original Stillpoints were cruder design and prove to be warmer, less resolving then current designs. Under an EAR 324 phono preamp, a buckwheat pillow beat out all other vibration designs (at least a dozen). It’s the cheapest too! The pillow was superior to the standard equipment feet on all the above but Stillpoints beat it at much higher price. This took 18 years of experimenting with vibration devices. I’d like to try Stillpoints phono center weight against my VPI premium heavy center weight. If it’s only slightly better, I’ll keep the VPI. |
