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@keithtexas I heard the grandinotes also and they truly have incredible floating in the air imaging. Amazing.
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Should Kharma brand be added on this list? Some used ones can be had for less than $50k |
Large JBLs (Everest DD6700) or the Grandinote Mach 9 as mentioned by Orenstein. Would also take the Rockports but the Grandinotes sound so natural and open and free. Their crossoverless design seems to "let the note go" like horns done well can approach, without the tweaking and downsides. Would love to hear the Martion Orgons too; I think they are around $50K. |
I REALLY need to get my butt to an audio show. I would love to hear some mega dollar speakers. |
jtgofish258 postsThe Yamaha NS 5000s are probably as good as anything regardless of price.Certainly in terms of sounding real and natural.Other far more expensive speakers might sound more impressive and more "hi fi" but I doubt they are better.
Heard the NS5000 today at a show and I have to say I 100% agree. These speakers sounded simply incredible. So live and real sounding with one of the biggest widest soundstages I've ever heard. All this from bookshelves... wow. |
So. What did you think of the DD 6700 auggessyion
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@keithr
High end vs. SOTA is an argument but you can have great performance and it not have to cost a fortune. I have two Benchmark AHB2 amps arranged in a vertical bi-amp configuration on my Maggies (200watts per speaker at 4ohms). They are stable down to 2 ohms and can drive them louder than I care to listen effortlessly. They are crystal clear and have almost no THD, are quieter than most pre-amps, and have an incredible dynamic range approaching 128db as measured by Stereophile. They are new at $3k and you’ll rarely fine one used because people love them.
Thanks,
Steve |
Here’s a winner for you :)
JBL DD 6700.
You will be amazed at sound from a relatively innocuous pair of speakers with great WAF compared to many you mention :) Easy to drive. Great dynamics. Crystal clear as there is no crossover in the frequencies above bass and up to 20,000. Often available within your price goal.
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I don't think the hypothesis really exists because even with Maggies, amp budget is huge (think 50k+ for SOTA) and requires subs which are hard to integrate. Apples and oranges.
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@smodtatical
I have 20.1 Maggies, opted for the older model because I preferred the sound of the true ribbon tweeter and I wanted to bi amp them and use room correction with my Mini DSP. I have a very large room with cathedral ceilings and they sound drop dead amazing now but I’d did have them in a studio apartment, if you can believe it, that was 13ft wide and 25ft long with a half wall in the middle.
I had them three feet off the back wall and they provided a wall of perfect sound. Did they look big for the room? Sure but they disappeared from view when I played them. So I would argue that they sound as good as any speaker in any environment and that is in great part to their even wave of sound produced by the panel. Reflection issues are nullified by the near field listening situation you would inevitably be in by having them in a smaller room.
They sure are a wow in a small place when someone walks in and sees them towering over them.
Just another comment on their impact. I supplemented the subsonic area of music in that studio with tower stereo subs which was plenty. In my large room I added two more subs to utilize room correction and I bump them up for movie watching as it adds a little excitement. My wife had a friend over for the holiday and we watched a movie, during the opening scene it switched from a serene scene to gun shot car crashing in a split second. The sound was so immediate and pummeling from the Maggies and subs that my wife subconsciously jumped off the couch and ran away. Those people who say Maggies can’t rock don’t know how to set them up correctly with subs.
The music is so magical that comes out of them, It’s so pure and clean. Her friend said it sounded better than live!
Good luck on your quest. Remember in speakers and a few other things, size does matter. :)
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Thanks for the thoughts on maggies, going to try to hear them.
Any thoughts on wilson maxx 3? Thx |
Short version: Maggies need room to breathe, no matter what anyone says. High ceilings help a lot too.
The open secret is that most good speakers of any kind also profit from breathing room!
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@smodtactical, Maggies needing "a nice big space to sound good" is only partially true. They, like any and all dipoles, have to be a good distance from the wall they are in front of. What that distance is, is a matter of opinion; in a recent posting on Audiogon, Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere stated outright that the distance should be no less than 5’. I said the same a few months ago, and one Maggie owner reacted by saying that was an over-statement, that people are now saying it just because everyone else is saying it. I can’t speak for everybody else, but I (and, I believe, Ralph) say it because you want the sound from the rear of the panels to reach your ears no less than 10ms after that from the front of the speakers. Two sounds coming from the same direction less than 10ms apart in time are perceived by the brain as being part of the same acoustic event. The rear wave "smears" the sound of the front wave. It also creates comb-filtering, a concept too involved to go into here. The panels don’t HAVE to be 5’ from the wall; it is the 10ms delay that is important---any way you achieve that is fine. My preferred loudspeakers since 1972 have been dipoles, and I’ve had them (magnetic-planars, ESL’s, ribbons) in ALL kinds of rooms. In my opinion, the further from the front wall (that behind the speakers), the better. There is one hardcore Japanese Maggie lover who came up with a room-positioning technique that got nicknamed "Limage"; he proposes bringing the panels almost to the center of the length of the room (about 40% from the front towards the back), and placed almost touching the side walls. That of course requires a room longer than many have; if you want to be 8’ from the panels (a minimum, I would say), and want the panels to be at least 5’ from the wall behind them, and the Limage technique demands the panels be 40% down the length of the room, how long must that room be? I’ll leave the math to you! I would say that if you have a room about 14’ wide and 16’ long, you have enough space for a pair of Maggies. Put each panel 18" from its’ side wall, and the panels 8’ apart (18" for each side space, 18" for each Maggie---assuming it’s the 1.7i; the 3.7i is 24" wide, and 8’ between the panels adds up to 14’), and 5’ from the front wall. 5’ from the room’s 16’ length allows you to sit 8’ from the panels and 3’ from the rear wall, all totaling 16’. If one dimension has to be sacrificed, make it the length. Sitting closer to the back wall will require that wall be treated with sound-absorbing panels (you’ll be too close to it for diffusion to be an option), but that is better than positioning the speakers closer to the front wall. Dipoles can, however, be put almost right up against side walls, unlike monopoles. Their front-to-back dipole cancellation creates a figure-of-8 radiation pattern, creating a null (little sound) to either side of the panel. In his recent demonstrations of the new flagship MG30.7, Magnepan’s Wendell Diller did just that with the bass panels, positioning them about a foot from the left and right walls. When you do that, the tweeter drivers should of course be on the inside edge of each speaker, closest to each other. Maggies also need to be toed in towards the listening area, not just because of off-axis high frequency drop-off, but to bring the speaker’s drivers into time alignment with one another. Then there is the matter of the acoustical treatment of the room. Because of dipole cancellation, side wall reflections are less of a concern than with monopoles. But the front wall (again, behind the speakers) is MORE of a concern. Diffraction of the rear wave---the random "scattering" of the sound reaching that wall from the rear of the panels, is preferred by many dipole users, though not all. |
@hifidream which Magnepans do you have? I don't have a huge area and have read they need a big space to sound good.
@audiotomb I'll read more about daedelus, thanks! |
Daedalus speakers
wonderful tonal balance - the most critical thing
very revealing
micro and macro detail and dynamics
sonic wood done right which disappear in a room
high efficiency
a low watt sat, triode tube or large amp will drive them well
i hear everysustem change in spades
i was at RMAF and kept hearing $$$ lesser sounding speakers and was drawn back in
disclosure
bought a pair of Ulysses |
Many have noted, Maggies rival many Uber expensive speakers. I think you would be doing yourself a disservice not to listen to them. I listen to symphonic music full tilt on my Maggies, which is much more demanding than rock and could blow out the windows if I choose to (I love rock and old school house music too). To get the subsonic punch people speak of I integrated four subwoofers using DSP which you could easily do for the price of a much more expensive set of speakers. The result is all the magical mids and highs benefits of the panel with none of the disadvantages. |
@yyzsantabarbara good point man |
Directly or indirectly Ralph is affiliated with both Classic Audio and Sound Labs, so of course they are great speakers. I walk my talk. I've shown with both companies at shows, because they make great speakers. Beyond showing with them I have no affiliation. I'd have mentioned Audiokinesis too (with whom I've also shown) but his speakers were too inexpensive to make the cut. After nearly 43 years in this business, I've yet to sell a single loudspeaker. |
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@smodtactical I heard a few TAD speakers and liked them but the price seemed a little too high relative to the competitors such as KEF. At the store where I went and demoed the TAD ME1 (in Los Angeles) there was a TAD R1 MKII demo on sale. It was in NEW condition.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9dff4-tad-r1-mk2-full-range
If you are going to spend this much cash on speakers you should spend a few days in a big city such as LA and listen to everything on your list in one shot. Spend a week, it won't cost too much relative to the amount you want to spend on speakers. |
TAD is japanese? Wow thats cool.
I heard really good things about ref 1s. |
The Japanese have never been able to make a decent speaker. Wow, not even the TADs? |
Directly or indirectly Ralph is affiliated with both Classic Audio and Sound Labs, so of course they are great speakers. |
Recently got hold of the Quested v3110 active pro monitors. Not too big monitor in a very heavy package. Gives you a beautiful "organic" full range sound. High spl capacity. End of game for me for a while. So far runs them without any external dsp. Just using the internal settings. Will challenge any speaker out there. |
Will do. Give me a couple weeks at least. |
@manthik not at all man, I am very happy for you, I am sure they are truly incredible speakers and for that price, amazing... I hope you can write up some impressions
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@smodtactical, sorry I just took one of the speakers off your short list under consideration :) We were probably looking at the same used pair of Nola CGRG. Good luck on your journey! |
@smodtactical Classic Audio Loudspeakers (CARs) are made in Brighton, MI. The models T3 and T1 are three-way speakers employing two bass drivers, a midrange horn and compression driver tweeter. http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?fs=1&init=1You can have them field-coil powered, which endows the drivers with the speed to which I referred earlier. The midrange horns employ CAD-optimized throat curves that eliminate common old-school horn artifacts; the drivers are beryllium domes with Kapton surrounds. This means that the first breakup is at about 35KHz and an extra octave of low frequency bandwidth, so very smooth and detailed across their entire range. They are also 16 ohms so whatever amp is driving them will be lower distortion than it will on lower impedance speakers. This also makes them smoother, since the kind of distortion I'm talking about makes amps sound harsher otherwise. So they are full range (down to 20Hz) and very smooth and detailed; they also image quite well. On top of that they are easy to drive; they pretty well tick all the boxes except they aren't small. |
The NS5000's are very nice. Very extended sweet treble and easy on the ear. Also, excellent transparency and micro dynamics. In one word, "refined".
However, to my ears they slightly lack the macro dynamics of some of the competition at that price point, so there's not quite as much excitement factor. |
Sorry what are CARs speakers ?
The majestic looks nice, sucks they don't have a local dealer but I may try to listen to them if I take a trip.
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Classic Audio Loudspeakers makes a couple of models that easily deserve this sort of comment: I've not heard any speaker more expensive that actually sounded better.
The CARs also have the benefit of being easy to drive- 16 ohms and 98dB 1 watt/1 meter, with bandwidth down to 20Hz. I've been running them for years. With field coil operation they are as fast as ESLs.
Speaking ESLs, the Sound Lab Majestic is a truly full range ESL that can deliver dynamic range as well as the transparency that usually only ESLs are known for. If you want to know the top 5 best speakers in the world, the two I've mentioned here are on the list.
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The Persona 7H / 9H midband is excellent. Tonally more forward than
B&W 800 / 802D3 in a side-by-side compare, but I would judge
different rather than better, but dependent on genre of music. The big
B&W's excel in casting a larger soundstage, and a bit more warmth
and bottom end.
Agree with that for sure.
I'd take an educated guess that the Linkwitz LX521 will match or surpass anything at $200k for a great deal less than $50k.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LX521/Description.htm
Thanks going to check it out |
The Persona 7H / 9H midband is excellent. Tonally more forward than B&W 800 / 802D3 in a side-by-side compare, but I would judge different rather than better, but dependent on genre of music. The big B&W's excel in casting a larger soundstage, and a bit more warmth and bottom end.
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I am getting a big recommendation for JBL 4367. Any thoughts on how that stacks up against others in the list? |
Will definitely consider the KEF blade as well! |
The Japanese have never been able to make a decent speaker. Who knows, with the westernization of their music they may pull it off one day. But, not with NS 5000s. Not even close. |
If I may suggest at risk of being called a heretic:
$40K speakers and $10K speaker cables :D |
And to Nick: Room treatments can be of critical importance, but they don’t confer such bragging rights online. So we tend to hear less about them. People would much rather argue about brand names.
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Josh358 thanks for your contributions. I see you've been posting knowledgeably about Magnepan speakers for at least a decade now! I agree that they are magnificent at what they do best.
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You may want to have somwhat interest in the KEF BLADE. I have heard 5 of your somewhat interest speakers and I would take the BLADE over those. |
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Right now I have a list below. What do you think?
Most interested =====
Nola concert grand reference
Rockport Cygnus
Focal stella utopia 2 EM
Somewhat interested =====
Von Schweikert VR10
TAD Reference 1
Magico S5 MK2
Magico M3
Revel Salon 2
Lumenwhite Kyara
Canton 1k
Paradigm Persona 9H
Dynaudio evdience platinum
MBL 101e
Peak consult Kepheus
Surrountec monolog
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If you can spare the time (you obviously have the funds) I suggest attending an audio show to calibrate your expectations. I went to the 2018 AXPONA and the Tampa show this spring. My favorite speakers at both shows were the MBL 101 E's Yes, they are $70K but they sounded better than all of the more expensive speakers except for the $300K Von Schweikerts. But there were two other speakers that really stood out. The Rockport Atria II's ($27K) and the Dynaudio Contour 60's ($10K). On the other hand I did not like the sound of the big Wilsons ($200K+) even though I listened several times. I thought I must be crazy until I met a guy who, unprompted, told me how bad the Wilson speakers sounded.
He described exactly the same problems that I heard.
We couldn't blame it on the room because next door there was a system featuring the big Sonus Fabers ($100K) and they sounded gorgeous.There were two major takeaways for me from these shows, 1) I could not see much of a correlation between price and sound quality - at least for my tastes, and 2) my mid 90's vintage system consisting of Krell amplification and Mirage M3si speakers could challenge all but the best systems that I heard. Granted, I've had years to optimize my room and the rest of my system but I realized that I will have to spend a lot of money to achieve a serious upgrade. |
If I were trying to beat 200k speakers with 50k I would spend 30k on speakers and the rest building a proper well treated listening room. To paraphrase Jesus: Why are you worried about the splinter in your speakers eyes and ignoring the beam in your rooms. |
Yes you can call me a partial - but I have been a dealer for 30 years and have sold some of the worlds most expensive systems and Have heard just about everything else out there. Until you experience what the GT audio works loudspeaker system can achieve with its planar magnetic crossover less system with its accompanying Open baffle servo subs you haven’t experienced true dynamic transparent sound. GT audio works loud speaker systems have consistently won best sound of shows -Most of our customers from around the country are our best advertising. Please see below video And yes they are way below 50k https://youtu.be/2ZgRiAdbDNw |
I loved the Avant guard duo mezzo at axpona such dynamics but you may need more space. I almost bought a pair but went for gryphon.
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Snell speakers can be had for a song. I have a pair of Type B's. I picked them up off eBay for under $700.00 Bass goes down to 20 htz and they throw a big soundstage. One warning; the midwoofers need to be replaced or reglued. I found four new drivers out of Australia. They cost around $380.00 to get them to my door. To my ears these Type B's sound as good as the big B&W's of which I've owned several pairs. A guy does have a pair on Audiogon for sale. You can see the mids were reglued. Great speakers! |
Great to hear that sort of report.I really think the NS5000s set a new standard for midrange reproduction.The rest is very good too.The drivers being all made from the same Zylon material must also help with tonal consistency and cohesion.
If you are concerned about the bass overdriving your room Yamaha make acoustic panels which you position just behind the speakers.
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