With a sub, properly integrated, Revel, Fritz, Joseph YG, Sonus Faber wide body speakers, and the smaller Gryphons, given modest sized rooms, treatment and limited listening location.
I'd put them up against any speaker at any price in terms of soundstaging and ability to play a variety of music very well, and having a smooth tonal balance without artificial harshness or detail.
What I want out of a super speaker is a wider listening location, ability to fill a larger room, and exceptional dynamic range.
But, limit yourself to modest homes/listening areas and there's a number of speakers I would argue would sound as good if not better.
This is one thing I wondered. Could a smaller well made speaker in a smaller well treated room rival a super speaker that is in a huge room? Also could the smaller speaker in the smaller room out perform a super speaker in the same room just because it is a better match for that room? So perhaps the answer is yes to both of these.
If you restrict bass and max output, you can get amazing towers for $3000-$5000, such as the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower with RAAL upgrade.
There are very heavy diminishing returns once you go past $5K. Will a $20K speaker sound much better than a $5K from the same brand, sure, but does it sound $15,000 better?
The Revel F228Be for $10K is amazing if you don’t care about bass.
I always recommend subwoofers (unless in an apartment/condo), and I also recommend dual or more subs, as they are easier to integrate and sound better due to the benefit of room mode cancellations.
For $16K you can get the F228Be, dual Rythmik G25HP’s, and $1000 in room treatment, that would be an amazing system.
Thanks. I think I agree with your threshold for the rise of the diminishing returns. Right now my system is PC > SOTM 200 ultra > Denafrips terminator > HE9 > dual 4bsst bryston monoblocks > Paradigm signature s8 v2s (and dual PSA V1800 subs). Its a great system especially for the money imo. My room is small, 12 x 16 x 8 ft. But was thinking of a dedicated listening room and was wondering about upgrading my system to get even more. Today I listened to a 200k+ system [dcs streamer + dac > VAC statement > esoteric m1 monos > Stella utopia evo] and was really immersed in the sound which was very detailed with a wide open sound stage that filled the room which was longer than mine. However its hard for me to say it was worth 10x more money than my system. |
If you can afford $50k then I think you should focus on finding the, in your opinion, best sounding speakers for that amount. Don't worry about more expensive speakers.
If you want to compare $50k speakers with $200k I am no expert. I have heard both the m6 and some Utopias. My memory is that they had dynamics and an effortless that I have not heard from any sub $50k speakers.
A much cheaper speaker that also impressed without being as good was the Kii Three with bass modules. And Boenicke but I only heard the standmounts. MBL 101 sounds very good and starts around 70k if you can push your budget. - I'll look into those suggestions, thanks. Paradigm Persona 9H’s = $35k/pr.
There, I saved you another $15k - you’re welcome! - Just heard the 7Fs and was really impressed with their incredible resolution and precision. I think you might be right on the 9H which should have much better bass. I don't believe you should try to find $50K speakers. Find the best speakers you can afford, and if they cost $20 each then so be it. - I agree, probably my post should have been about the best speakers under 50k. @ smodtactical
Your room size is about the same as mine (11x15.5x8). I have had towers(Snell CV), OB (Caintuck Betsy w/ Hawthorne OB bass augmenters), 3 different Omega speakers (Compact Hemp, 6 Alnico monitors,and XRS 8 Alnico all with Omega Deep Hemp subs), and Shelby+Kroll monitors with matching subs. With the S+K I used the Dspeaker Dual Core for room correction and sub blending. Of all the systems the best sounding was the S+K Dspeaker combo until the set up I have now. Read on... - very interesting suggestions, haven't listened to horns yet will look into them, thanks Magneplanar! - got to hear them Altec a5 with modern crossover and a good tweeter will be as good as $250,000 speaker systems plus they are far more fun. - thx I believe in the law of diminishing returns.
I believe the law law may kick in as low as $3,500.
I believe it kicks in for sure at $5,000.
I believe that it seriously kicks in at $10,000
Someone said that everyone’s ears are wired differently. I agree. Over $20,000, it’s personal preference for sure.
The same folks who wanna spend $600,000 on a pair of speakers wanna spend $500 per foot on speaker cable (I use chicken wire 🙄).
Then, surely you’ve heard the joke that the size of a guy’s speakers are inversely proportional to the size of his dick?
My speakers are pretty damn big, 😳, ... but my wife hasn’t been complaining. - I compared the 100k+ stella utopia to the 20k+ persona 7f and I would say there was a pretty big gain in sound stage and separation but obviously not the kind of difference that would justify the price, but ya the law does work hard at these levels If you want that "big buck sound" for under 50k, I believe you would be wise to look into the Grandinote Mach 9's. They list for around 42k, and they are a wonder. I own their big brother, the Mach 36's, which retail for around 150k, and although the 9's aren't quite up to the 36's in terms of sheer magnitude, they have very similar characteristics, especially when it comes to the sound-stage and neutral coloration. I know these are not well known in the states (they're manufactured in Italy), but if anyone here is in the NY area and would like to hear the 36's, I would welcome you to come over to my house for a listen, perhaps embellished with a fine dram of single malt.
By the way, the Mach 4's, which run about 25k, are also an amazing speaker, especially in a smaller room. - Cool suggestion! Never heard Grandinote, will look into it Agree with the Magnepan 30.7. But as others say, it depends on what your priorities are. The Maggies excel on acoustical music, they have a spooky realism to them. Even my old Tympani IVa's can be jaw-droppingly realistic (talk about bargains -- maybe $3000 used), and the 30.7's better them in every respect.
- whats the downside to the maggies? For a full range speaker it's difficult to go past B&W 800D3.
- heard it vs the persona 7F and have to say the persona was much sharper, crytalline in its detail and had better imaging, bw perhaps better bass, but overall prefer persona Probably lots of speakers would fill the bill but one I'm sure of is a used pair of Rockport Cygnus. - i would love to hear the cygnus, there is a used one going for 40k I’ll take the big Raidhos on looks alone. Wow! I don’t really care how someone thinks they sound. The sound is a function of a great many things. Almost any speaker can be made to sound great. - thanks, Raidhos do look interesting, i want to hear those diamond woofers These were mentioned above, but the 2 models that always come to mind for me are:
Joseph Pearl 3
KEF Blade - thx will check these out A year or so ago, I was at Boulder Amplifier and heard their reference system (and room) built around Stella Grand Utopia's. Easily a > $500k system, not counting the cost of the room. They poured a separate foundation for the listening room, built the room, and then built the factory around it. Delightful overkill :-)
Not that long thereafter at a Colorado Audio Society meeting, I heard a member's system that featured a set of Acoustic Zen Crescendo II's in a smallish room. (His electronics were home-built). I was struck at how similar the soundstage, dynamics and overall voicing was to the Grand Utopias. They are $25K new and I recently saw a used pair advertised on Audiogon for ~$9k. Didn't have the spare change lying about or I would have pounced without hesitation.
I think they're a must audition in the price range you're talking about. - the zen cescendos look good i wonder how the zen maestros sound Yamaha NS 5000s - a friend on my audio discord strongly recommends these, i will listen |
@jtgofish Comments like yours are why I have been keeping the NS 5000 flame burning instead of just buying the Persona 3F. I have auditioned the 3F and liked it. The Anthem STR pre is something I would HAVE to consider using if I went with the NS 5000. I would need DSP to shoehorn in the Yamaha into my small office space. I am looking at the Luxman m900u amp for whatever speaker I get and that amp is reference caliber great.
Thanks for your private comments to me on the NS 5000 maybe 6 months ago. The wheels have been turning since then to figure out a way listen to them. Should be exciting tomorrow to hear my dads feedback on the 3F and NS 5000 comparison.
Have you gone up the line at all? I hear the 7F and was very impressed with the crystalline midrange. It just sounded so real and precise. Was easily superior to the 800D3. |
- whats the downside to the maggies?
Well, Jonathan Valin said they didn’t have the most bass impact on rock. To put that in perspective, they measure flat to 20 Hz and my old Tympani IVa’s, which have less panel area, will do chest compression in my small room. But I don’t think Maggies and other planars are the best choice if you listen primarily to rock -- some will disagree. My IVa’s will cruise at 110 dB, which is plenty loud, but they won’t give you the ear-destroying SPL’s of something like a big Wilson, or the incredible dynamics of a horn.
I think the main drawback for most though is their size. They don’t really require a huge room, they place nicely in a room that’s 14’ wide -- but they are big and they have to be at least 5’ out from the wall behind them to sound their best (3’ is the minimum).
Still, Jonathan said you’d have to spend $100,000 to find speakers that sound as good and having heard them twice now I suspect he’s right.
Thanks for that. I really want to hear them but unfortunately no store near me has the 20.7 or 30.7 :( |
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Right now I have a list below. What do you think?
Most interested =====
Nola concert grand reference
Rockport Cygnus
Focal stella utopia 2 EM
Somewhat interested =====
Von Schweikert VR10
TAD Reference 1
Magico S5 MK2
Magico M3
Revel Salon 2
Lumenwhite Kyara
Canton 1k
Paradigm Persona 9H
Dynaudio evdience platinum
MBL 101e
Peak consult Kepheus
Surrountec monolog
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Sorry what are CARs speakers ?
The majestic looks nice, sucks they don't have a local dealer but I may try to listen to them if I take a trip.
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Will definitely consider the KEF blade as well! |
I am getting a big recommendation for JBL 4367. Any thoughts on how that stacks up against others in the list? |
The Persona 7H / 9H midband is excellent. Tonally more forward than
B&W 800 / 802D3 in a side-by-side compare, but I would judge
different rather than better, but dependent on genre of music. The big
B&W's excel in casting a larger soundstage, and a bit more warmth
and bottom end.
Agree with that for sure.
I'd take an educated guess that the Linkwitz LX521 will match or surpass anything at $200k for a great deal less than $50k.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LX521/Description.htm
Thanks going to check it out |
@manthik not at all man, I am very happy for you, I am sure they are truly incredible speakers and for that price, amazing... I hope you can write up some impressions
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TAD is japanese? Wow thats cool.
I heard really good things about ref 1s. |
@hifidream which Magnepans do you have? I don't have a huge area and have read they need a big space to sound good.
@audiotomb I'll read more about daedelus, thanks! |
Thanks for the thoughts on maggies, going to try to hear them.
Any thoughts on wilson maxx 3? Thx |
jtgofish258 postsThe Yamaha NS 5000s are probably as good as anything regardless of price.Certainly in terms of sounding real and natural.Other far more expensive speakers might sound more impressive and more "hi fi" but I doubt they are better.
Heard the NS5000 today at a show and I have to say I 100% agree. These speakers sounded simply incredible. So live and real sounding with one of the biggest widest soundstages I've ever heard. All this from bookshelves... wow. |
@keithtexas I heard the grandinotes also and they truly have incredible floating in the air imaging. Amazing.
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