Weird that an Aria owner can’t spell the name of his speakers. I can’t imagine how one would end up deciding between them and Spendors. To say that’s an apples to oranges comparison is an understatement.
Anyway, folks need to get out and audition more speakers. I have a hard time imagining anyone would pick them unless they’ve had a very slim diet of auditions. IMO, yes, just my opinion, the Arias are competitive in the $2K realm, nothing more. I had a chance to buy a demo pair for $2K. I listened to them with a couple well regarded amps, with many genres of music, but they just didn’t have anything that justified their price. I have experience with several less expensive speakers that were better to my ears, including Revel Concerta2 F36s, Monitor Audio Silver 8s, Vandersteen 1Cis, KEF LS50s and Maggie 1.7s (the latter two in all aspects but bass). Of course, this is just my opinion, but that was my honest assessment. I will say they are a great looking speaker.
Also, the speaker manufacturer cost to make a speaker, average formula is four to one of the factory wholesale cost. The retail wholesale cost for a $10K speaker is $6K. The total manufacturer cost to make that $10K speaker including packaging and out the door, is $2400.00. This is why the majority of speaker companies build their cabinets with MDF panels, since MDF is dirt cheap, and will not standardize bamboo panels as an alternative, since it would reduce their profit margins.
^ No, that's because MDF is less resonant than bamboo. Plywood is one of the best materials, as the BBC concluded with actual research. You can read about it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1977_03
helomech..you are off the mark. The report you refer to is from 1977. I looked at the two tables listing woods and composites and bamboo is nowhere to be found. Bamboo plywood is what I'm referring to is stronger than steel. Bamboo has a tensile strength of 28,000 and steel has a tensile strength of 23,000 and is three times stronger than oak. When layered in multiple sheets to form bamboo plywood, it has the highest dampening and resonating ability out of any organic material on the planet. Bamboo is King. Ascend Acoustics uses bamboo plywood for their top speakers which is why the Sierra Towers have a performance level typical of speakers in the $8K to $12K range. Back in 1977 no one even considered at the time to explore the science of bamboo material for the advancement of speaker cabinet structure.
So these Aries 936 cost the dealer approx $2400. I would think they also pay shipping which probably add another approx 200 costing total 2600 my thought was to offer him 3000. one more question would the ascend towers match up with my Denon better then the Aries?
Nope. You need to dump the Denon. The Focal and Sierra are designed to handle major amplification. The Denon does not have the power reserve necessary to bring the Focal and Sierra to their best performance level. Dealers are like politicians, they'll tell you exactly what you want to hear. Rule of thumb matching an amplifier to a speaker for maximum performance. Under powering a speaker at high volume levels will heat up your drivers and cause damage. When a company list specs such as amp recommendation as " 100 to 300 watts " , always go for the max. To determine the correct amount of power, call the speaker company and talk to their tech designers, and ask them what is the maximum continuous power their woofer magnets can handle and divide by two. If you are told 500 watts, then 250 watts is what you need. The Parasound A21 amp would be an excellent choice at 250 watts per side and you could pick one up used, as an example. You always want your drivers current volume at least 50% at all times to keep your drivers and crossover components cool for the very best performance. I would go for the Sierra's, much cheaper since their factory direct and you would save about $700, sell the Denon and if your on a tight budget, pick up a used Class D integrated from Wyred 4 Sound, to provide the power you need. Go to the Ascend Acoustics website and read the review by Enjoy the Music of the Sierra Towers. Review is outstanding.
one more question would the ascend towers match up with my Denon better then the Aries?Enter your text ...
I just recently owned Ascend Towers with the Raal Tweeter options. I had them paired to a Marantz 7500 @ 110 watts, and then upgraded to a Outlaw 7500 Amp ( with a Marantz 8801 Pre Amp) . The Outlaw was 200 watts per channel. To answer your question, the extra 100 amps, when turned up, was very noticeable. Made the system solid at high volumes. More dynamic, more impact. Then I upgrade to a ATI 6005 @ 300 watts per channel. Again, the change was noticeable when turned up. And even when turned up, the silence in the (quiet parts) was noticeable, as the floor in the ATI was so much better.... But were getting deep here... Lets stay basic. I agree with Audiozen. Ditch the Denon, Go with the Ascends, trade up in Amplification., And I'll add,,, you will need a sub .. I'll vouch for the Ascends, there a heck of a speaker. But they need a sub for my liking. But that's just me .... .
Nothing against Ascend speakers. I haven’t heard them but from everything I’ve read, I have no doubt that they’re at least competitive with others mentioned here. Owners seem to love them. Do you own a pair? As far as materials are concerned, I wasn’t referring to tensile strength, I was referring to resonance characteristics, where MDF has the advantage over many materials. Besides, compression strength is the more important factor, which is why Magico and others use carbon fiber cabinets, not bamboo and aramid. Best regards.
helomech..I was referring to organic materials only. Not synthetic like carbon fiber which is made up of polyacrylonitrile and rayon. Very bad material for the environment. Cannot be recycled and it winds up in land fills. China is currently developing an alternative, bamboo carbon fiber, which I'm not sure how green it will be. I heard that Donald Trump is having a pair of Magico M3's dipped in gold to put in his bathroom at the White House.
audiozen has a beef with Vandersteen and it shows in your posts. That alone makes anyone question what you say. You have the general idea about pricing down, but not in all cases. That's a fact. You speak in absolute terms and fail to realize that many dealers carry equipment that is much better in sound and quality than direct sell. Not in all cases and that's why I own a bit of each in my own system. I just want what sounds best for me like most folks seem to want.
You can speak in absolutes all you want about cabinet materials or expensive drivers and crossovers used, but that means nothing if not implemented correctly. Maybe the Accent guy does that, but they still won't be the right speaker for everyone. I love Vandersteen's and Tidal and a few others right now, but that doesn't mean that everyone will or should. This is why there are a ton of makers out there.
If a direct buy company doesn't offer at least a 30 day 100% money back guarantee, then I personally won't purchase from them unless they bring the product to the house (yes, I'm lucky since some folks are close to CT). Maybe that speaker company does that. If so, good on them.
As for Vandersteen using ghost writers, I highly doubt it. As for his temper, who knows how you were with him. It takes two to communicate. I know a few folks who have had negative conversations with some of the biggest gentlemen in the industry. It's ironic as I've overheard Richard speaking with an engineer about design concepts etc... He may not be an engineer on paper, but he surly seemed to know what he was talking about. Not all engineers have a degree or need one. They can be self taught too.
I personally don't care too much about all of that as I'm more into the music and great sound. You can get that from a variety of components and matching as you pointed out in your Denon response, is THE key thing. No need to purchase anything if you aren't going to match it with the correct devices. Thats' at all price points I personally believe.
I'm not going to disparage anyone or any product in this thread as I don't have a beef, like you admitted to with anyone. The OP needs to get out and audition as many products as they can in order to figure out what they really want. When folks actually get to stores and listen for a bit and not let the dealer or the manufacture talk them into something, they will find out they really do like one thing over another. So often folks don't think amps or pre amps etc, really make a big difference until the sit down and listen to a few of them adn notice that they may not want what they came in look for. I had that happen wiht me when I thought I wanted Vandy 2 back in the late 90s and walked out with a pair of floor standing ProAc's instead.
Clock forward to about 4 years ago and I went into the closest ProAc dealer as Richard G (former distributor) sent me to Audio Connection. I wanted to purchase a new pair of the newer D series monitors and I walked out with a pair of Vandersteen Treo's. The owner forced me to listen to all the speakers in my price range, because we all hear differently.
The name of the company is Ascend Acoustics, not Accent. I'm not a fan boy of the Audio establishment. More than anything else, I'm a music man, big time. I listen to music at least two hours a night seven days a week when my system is in place. My main interest is Classical Composers and jazz, and hard rock for dessert. Implying I'm lying regarding my stint with Richard is absurd. When I called him back in the summer of '98, it was a quick call and I was impressed he answered the phone. I was polite, easy, just calling to have a tech questioned answered, thats all. I got the impression that he was distracted, probably assembling a speaker, who knows. During the past 30+ years I have had many great phone conversations with companies regarding tech issues that were all very positive. Richard took me by surprise, thats all. My focus in my recent threads is mainly on boutique companies that stay off the radar, that make their products solely for music lovers, not Audiophiles that are just into gear. Companies that have a long term word of mouth reputation, known for making musical treasures. Such as Belles and Ascend Acoustics. These companies are not interested in becoming a large mega million establishment audio company plastering their ads all over the planet in top high end magazines. Their only focus is the music lover, and these type of companies are disappearing. Having been burned by three retail businesses since 1986, is why I only buy direct. General idea about pricing? I worked in retail for five years selling electronics and camera equipment, and I'm very familiar with bracket buying tables on paper, displaying vertical columns for different product amounts and wholesale discount rates. Common in retail. Also, I have never bought into the false concept " we all hear differently " when we listen to music. Twenty years ago, when I attended the monthly Audio Society meetings on Mercer Island at a church in their lower floor large rec room, we would bring CD's or vinyl to listen to and evaluate. An average of thirty people would show up every month. At the end of each listening session, everyone would have the same opinion of what we heard and always pointed out the bad or good qualities in the recording, such as poor bass, cold highs, shallow midrange, and poor sound stage. We assume all reviewers in the top high magazines, regardless of the mag, all hear the same things, Thats why we read their reviews in the first place! For evaluation! When three thousand people are in a concert hall to hear a symphony, guess what, they all hear the same thing. What a bunch of hyperbole.
Hearing is a sense, like taste or smell. I doubt 30 people would all have the same impression of the same dinner entree, if they all were to sample it. Surely, the morphology of each person's ears differs, as well as each person's neural pathways. No, I don't see how it would even be possible for every person to hear things exactly the same. Perhaps, the overall sound could be perceived similarly, but also the fine details?
helomech..I owned a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE's, which I sold before Christmas. A remarkable review you can find on The Sound Apprentice website. Go to their homepage and to the right click on Ascend Acoustics on their topic and brands list. Their conclusion is correct, a benchmark product. It is the best bookshelf I have ever heard in thirty years in its price range. Had it hooked up to my Rega Mira 3 integrated.
mtrot..Then why do we assume all reviewers hear the same thing? This is nothing more than propaganda from the high end industry. Your confusing hearing with sensitivity. Comparing eating a plate of Spaghetti to listening to music is a stupid analogy. If you believe that than go eat a sub woofer. Paper cones I "hear" are more delicious.
I recently started using 99db Klipsch Heresy IIIs which don’t ring unless ringing is part of the music, which it rarely is. Years ago I also talked to Richard Vandersteen on the phone about 1Bs I'd sent in for cover refurbishing, and after asking if there were any updates I could add to my speaker cloth order, he got testy and pointed out they'd been completely revised and my request was ridiculous…a treasured audio moment.
Really? First, I do not assume all reviewers hear the same thing, for my stated reasons. Second, do you deny that our hearing is a sense, much as taste or smell?
@audiozen - When you owned your store, what did you pay for rent? Utilities? Insurance? Employees? Taxes? Build-out? Maintenance? I think the value added by a knowledgable retailer who offers service and demonstrates products is worth it to many consumers. And many B&M retailers do discount off list. I sometimes buy direct, but I let the product determine where I buy it, not the profit margin of the seller. Would you rather have a great speaker sold only in stores with a bigger markup, or a mediocre one sold direct by a seller operating on thin margins?
To answer OP's last question, neither the Focals nor the Ascend Acoustics match well with your AVR. They both greatly outclass it,. In addition to probably not having enough quality watts to get the most out of them, the preamp sections of most AVRs are not good. And as many audiophiles will tell you from personal experience, the preamp is one of the most important factors in the ultimate sound you get out of your system. If you're planning on upgrading to this level of speaker, I hope you are planning to upgrade your electronics too.
spendmoney...Here is an excellent choice of low priced high end quality components from Nord Acoustics in England. They make Class D amps, preamps, and integrateds. You have your choice of Hypex Ncore or B&O ICE amps. You have two choices of Op amps. From Sparkos or Sonic Imagery. The Sparkos op amp is better, known for its warmer, richer, more relaxed signature. Here ya go.
audiozen, congrats on liking only off the radar companies. Good luck with auditioning everything before purchase. Also, good luck when the company eventually fails and you need work and you can't find the drivers for a pair of speakers.
As I said, I'm fine with smaller companies, but for audio to succeed we need both brick and mortar as well as upstarts to keep it fresh.
Also, iRT Vandersteen and his 'education', he was trained in electrical engineering in his time in the Air Force and then took many classes in engineering in college when he got out. He said he didn't care about the 'other' courses so he took all the important ones.
I'm glad to hear that you listen to music two hours a night. Congrats I guess? Glad that you can make a blanket statement that audiophiles aren't into music. I"m not the only one who took that statement that ways, so it's not just me. I've always felt that many audiophiles are into gear mostly and listen to audiophile tracks etc.. Then there are folks who only care about the music and want a decent system. Then there are many of us who love both gear and music.
Having MS, I too listen to music daily. I usually listen 4-8 hours a day and more on days that I'm not able to leave the house. I speak with many 'audiophiles' who listen a few hours a day or more. I'm sure no one cares, but you can love both gear, audio, folks with things in common as well as folks with nothing in common.
Oh, I'd love to say I'm sorry for misspelling the speaker company that you posted about and that I never disparaged, but I'm not sorry. I'm sure that everyone reading this thread, knew what company I was talking about.
No need to retort, but you probably will.
Back to the OP. as you can see there are so many options for you. Going to listen to as many as you can will help you much more than we can, lol.
ctsooner.."Also, good luck when the company eventually fails"... HA! What a joke! Ascend Acoustics has a very strong following globally and have been in business for 11 years. David Fabrikant works an average of 12 hours a day at his production facility to keep up with purchase orders. Hes still young and has a lot of mileage. As long as passionate music lovers exist, he will not be going anywhere soon. I never said that Audiophiles are not into music. I made it very clear that their are two types of Audiophiles, those that are into music, and others that just buy and show that are switching out their sysytems every two to three years to keep their stage show fresh. My closest friends are Audiophiles heavily into music and have their audio systems for an average of 7 to 10 years.
Not talking specifically about Ascend. Thanks for calling my statement a joke. Greatly appreciated, lol. ;). I"m so glad that you love the company and the man. I say that in all honesty. I won't put him down either, since I don't know him. I"ve heard good things about them from folks who own them. That's awesome.
I"m also sure that he has a succession plan in case something terrible were to happen. As someone who came down with MS at a fairly early age, I know how the best laid plans of mice and me often go astray. As I said, I too will often have a piece in my system from a small or one man show. It's just a buyer beware, that's all.j
Zen's post: "My focus in my recent threads is mainly on boutique companies that stay off the radar, that make their products solely for music lovers, not Audiophiles that are just into gear. "
Ok, rereading your post, I can see what you mean. You just pointed out only Audiophiles who like gear and don't seem to like music too. In reading it still comes off as they only make their gear for music lovers and not those of us who love both. I guess there really must be gray area here. Of course there is gray area. Sorry if I have stepped on your toes in anyway. Was just pointing out a couple of things that you posted initially that were wrong or misunderstood. I hope to someday hear the Ascend line of speakers somewhere. It's all good.
It’s interesting to think that any audio company actually wishes to "stay off the radar" as it sounds like a bad business plan, but I sort of get it, and "direct marketing" makes sense these days (and I’d never heard of Ascend speakers until now, so I suppose I need to turn up my radar…they have a well done site as ALL small companies should but strangely often don’t). I was thinking about my Dennis Had single ended amp and wondered if you could get a shop started up to make more of them, and then realized his output is likely exactly where he wants it since he left Cary. Except for a line of "Dragon Inspire" headphone amps marketed by Moon Audio (which actually may be keeping old Dennis busy) his Ebay marketed amps just show up whenever he makes a new one. I whine about people hyping products on forums (don't ask), but when asked about my little Had amp I just have to say…uh…sorry...you sort of can't have one.
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