speakers and cables

@immatthewj 

we often have such high expectations but we do not want to let ourselves be suckered in to confirmation bias 

Well said. I think we have the ability to hear music in ways a normal person can't and once we do hear something extraordinary, it's hard to lower our expectations. I wish I could listen to a lot of speakers and make a 100 times more educated choice, but I am not complaining. 

I hope the Revels will work out for you. Sometimes we have to listen like it's the first time. 

How is your Revel working out?

@grislybutter  , the last day to send them back has passed, so I guess they are mine now.  After the session that I had "officially" tallied at least 100 hours on them I hooked my B&Ws back up and I have to tell you that I was disappointed that the B&Ws didn't sound worse.  I considered sending the Revels back at that point.

But there was something about the way I felt when I was listening to the Revels that I was not/am not feeling with the B&Ws.  Which is why I suck at A/Bs and why I avoid doing them.  I don't know what it is that I hear or how to describe it but I know what I like listening to, if that makes sense.  I absolutely could not be a reviewer.  

My inability to be able to define what I hear is either a curse or a blessing.  I am not sure which.

Glad to hear the sub/speaker system is growing on you.  I think (and this applies to me) we often have such high expectations but we do not want to let ourselves be suckered in to confirmation bias so this all creates a mental conundrum that has an effect on our hearing.

And remember also that a brand new sub out of the box has break in as well.  Not only the speaker section but the amplification section. I'd let it settle in for a while and then contemplate incremental position changes.  Subs and speakers.  Although, personally speaking, that would drive me nuts.  Especially the way I have defined my own hearing.  "Do I hear it or do I not hear it."

Also, I wouldn't give up on that "true stacking" idea. 

@immathewj 

Thanks for checking back!

I am sticking with the quasi stacking for now (subs under and behind mains). The sound is growing on me. I am pretty happy with it. I am not smart enough to figure out how to place two subs anyway and because of the room constraints, it's unlikely that any place would work better.

The only other room I have is our living room where no setup ever sounded good. It has a 45 degree angle fire place in it cutting away a corner, maybe that's why. 

How is your Revel working out?

@grizzly:  any luck with experimenting with placement?

@immatthewj

yes, it also looks like this 

There are at least 10 speaker companies I know of that combine powered subs with passive mid and tweeter drivers. So it's probably not a bad idea. When done correctly....

My main reason not to stack them would be vibration control, which would cost extra  believe. 

. . . @grislybutter , after I posted that last post, I got to wondering which speaker I was thinking of. I did some googles and now I am pretty sure it was actually the B&W 801 Matrix. Not that it has any relevance to this thread, here is a picture of it. (It’s bigger in real life than the pic makes it look.) Doesn’t it look kind of like a 2 way speaker sitting on top of a subwoofer?

B&W 801

OOPS!  Ha ha, nobody ever hired me for my brains.  That might work.  I remember way back when I went to look at those B&W 805s, they had a three way B&W speaker at the show room also (I cannot remember if it ws the 802 or the 804 or what), and it basically reminded me of 805s sitting on top of a subwoofer.  

@immathewj I understood the stacking as the speakers on top of the subs, not the one sub on top of the other sub, which - I agree - does not seem to be a good approach...

@grislybutter , I've continued to follow the saga, and my thoughts are, at the moment, that stacking the subs is not going to be the answer that you are looking for.

@mswale I am pretty intrigued about those pads. I should say I am not in love with the look. But I can keep my eyes closed.

@mswale I have the foam and cork, if I just stuck it together, could that work?

Not sure about that stuff. It might be too squishy. The link  provided is made for equipment vibration. Like I said, it has worked wonders for me. Really is one of the bargains out there for this kind of stuff. 

@mswale I have the foam and cork, if I just stuck it together, could that work?

@mswale yes it’s like an animal farm, the more you have, the more it continues to cost. Kind of like when I walk into a rich person’s house, my first thought "nice but I would not want to pay the utility bills!"

Since you sound like a vibration guy, how would I stack them? What would I put between the subs and the speakers?

Still working on my vibration solution. This stuff gets stupid expensive. A little piece of metal with a few springs, $600 EACH! 

For the subs, you got to find a spot where they add bass, but not standing waves. A corner of the room, or in the middle of the speaker is a good starting point. 

I found these cheap little squares, they are under a lot of my equipment. Put them under the footers of the subs, if you stack, put them between the 2 subs as well. They work surprisingly well. ISO pads

@imatthewj 

update: I added the 100Hz high filters.

So now the mains aren't singing as they used to but they are not overlapping either. I am OK with the sound, not enthusiastic, I guess the placement game shall begin. At least it sounds clean and detailed.

@mswale yes it’s like an animal farm, the more you have, the more it continues to cost. Kind of like when I walk into a rich person’s house, my first thought "nice but I would not want to pay the utility bills!"

Since you sound like a vibration guy, how would I stack them? What would I put between the subs and the speakers?

That's a good cartridge. Also looking for a new one myself, going to get a Sumiko one. Other then buying new music, it's amazing how much money we can spend on all the little things.  Also trying to sort out footers on my gear, so many choices! Don't want to spend more on them, than what the gear cost. 

@mswale

We are here to help you spend thousands of dollars

that made my day!

It looks tight but there is some room like 10 inches to the left, 5 inches to the left. I can rearrange it whichever way I want, move the subs, these pieces are like LEGO. Stacking sounds a bit brave without vibration control? (But you are right, stacking is what I am trying to get close to, placement-wise. 

Most of my vinyl is not in the picture, I feel I have enough. (Not a lot, but maybe 200 or so)

I bought materials to build a rack. That’s my next project.

If I had money, I would buy a new cartridge . And then a new power amp. A rack is definitely in the plans when it rains 100 bills :)

Think the subs are wired up correctly for what you have. The filters will help.

You can try to move the subs out next to the mains, or even (gasp) stack them. In your room, stacking might help.

Can you use your turntable with the sub right there? It looks like a very crowded room. We are here to help you spend thousands of dollars. Might be time for a better rack/cabinet setup to get more room.

BTW, you NEED way more vinyl. 

Straightwire.com all day long  

@immathewj

I would have a hard time placing it behind the listening position. I would have to rearrange the room and get long cables. And I guess it wouldn't solve the main limitations.

Next time (there won't be a next time, my wife would stop me any way should would find feasible) I would need to have one or more of the following

• a bigger room
• subs with more options
• pre or integrated amp with crossover controls
• a brain.....

It's not over though, just yet, the high pass filters are a few days away, according to Amazon. 

My lazy excuse to give up may be that it's just as much of an art than science  

I would have been inclined to live in the camp that wouldn’t try to integrate subs with good full range speakers that were capable of getting down into the low frequencies.

I understand. I guess the long story short, if I never tried, I would always wonder, what if....

Well, despite which camp I would choose to live in, I’ve read posts (it seems like several posts) by members who are using subs with full range speakers and seem to be very happy with the SQ that they are achieving. I assume that they are able to find a place on their sub’s low pass filter that integrates their sub with the woofers of their full range speakers, and I would THINK that the setting would be well below 80 hZ, but I am just surmising on that.

And from looking at the picture you posted underneath the diagram, you are using two way speakers, and I would think that would be doable.

. . . and on edit:  there is just absolutely no way, even once you get the HP filter and connect with RCAs, that you would be able to experiment with placing the subs behind your chair?

@immathewj so you are right in your questions, we discussed most of it to death. But the big question is - regardless how I set it up, how it will sound. Sometimes less is more.

When I wrote high pass/low pass filter, I meant: external, sorry for the confusion.

I think my biggest confusion is the right crossover point, and whether I should have stuck with one sub.

I would have been inclined to live in the camp that wouldn’t try to integrate subs with good full range speakers that were capable of getting down into the low frequencies.

I understand. I guess the long story short, if I never tried, I would always wonder, what if....

Now that I tried, I understand that I need better components to take advantage of the sub, or I use little hacks. Human voice is above 100Hz, so I would think, if I filter out the signal below 100Hz to the mains, it still would be OK with vocals. I will find out soon!

This is what it looks like

@grislybutter ,

It sounds good from the sweetspot. From everywhere else, it’s a mess. It sounded significantly better with one sub.

on this, it would make a big difference to me whether the SQ in the sweet spot was SIGNIFICANTLY better than before. If it was, I’d probably say it was a compromise/sacrifice I’d make. But that would be me in my listening room.

Because of the room and furniture, I have no way of placing the subs anywhere else, other than further to the right and left 1 or 2 feet.

I have never claimed to be an expert with this stuff, but I would think this might make things tough, as I am thinking placement/location is probably critical I cannot tell from your picture whether the subs are to the rear or to the front of your speakers, and I am sure that this might factor in to the SQ result. When you were a one sub family, where was your one sub located? Quite a long time ago I posted a question about subwoofer location (I only have one sub) and a link provided in a reply I received strongly recommended two subs (much like you were acting on) and suggested that the desired location would be in the rear of the room versus in the proximity of the speakers.

"get a high pass/low pass filter"

We’ve been over this ad nauseam, so I’ll try not to be overly redundant . . . you already have LP filters built into the subs, and I did see that you are waiting for a HP filter in the mail to try out. Pros and cons: the sub will produce bass up to a certain hZ (probably not an absolutely clean chop off at that frequency) and then the midrange drivers of your mains will take over at theoretically where the bass from the subs stopped/another pro (imo) would be using RCAs versus speaker wire to connect the sub, which, among other things, MIGHT allow you to find more flexibility in locating your subs. But one con I see is putting something else in the signal path between your preamp and amp (assuming that is how the HP you are waiting for hooks up).

"don’t have any overlap in the bass"

"don’t add a high pass filter to a full range speaker?"

On this: I just don’t see how a whole lot of overlap between the mains and the subs could be a good thing. I’ve already said that I know I am not an expert on this subject, but that just SEEMS to defy all the logic that I had previously been exposed to. But I have had my preconceived notions debunked here on A’gon before. As far as not using a HP with a full range speaker? Going back to my preconceived notions: I would have been inclined to live in the camp that wouldn’t try to integrate subs with good full range speakers that were capable of getting down into the low frequencies. As a matter of fact, and this goes back to about 30 years aago, I seem to remember when I set my subwoofer based system up that the prevailing logic was, at the time, subwoofers were to augment two way speakers. I’ve read enough here on A’gon to know that if that actually was truly the "prevailing" logic, it no longer is. BUT: I would think that if one was running sub(s) with full range speakers, it would be important to set the lowpass filters on the subs low enough so that the mains and the subs were not reproducing the SAME huge range of low frequencies. And I think I remember you saying that the low pass on those subs only cuts off as low as 80 hZ? Meaning that your subs are going to try to reproduce AT LEAST from 80 on down. And since your mains are rated down to 50(?), even if they are not making it honestly all the way down that low, that still seems to me to be a recipe that calls for a HP or a crossover.

Attached is the current setup. I still don’t know if the sub is supposed to get full signa as before or just left or right.

Although I don’t recall this method being suggested before in your thread, I would THINK that the full signal going to the binding posts of your speakers would pass on (after your speakers) to the subs.

I know a lot more than the beginning of this thread. But still not enough to make meaningful improvements. High level vs low level; high pass filter or low, no filter, I still don’t see the obvious preferences.

Well, knowledge comes from experimentation--both successful and unsuccessful. You’ve tried high level and low level, and when you get the HP filter I assume you will try low level again (with high pass), and as far as

high pass filter or low, no filter,

your subs utilize LP filters and you have not yet used a highpass filter. But I will be waiting to hear how that works out for you. Staying tuned. . . .

@immathewj

A follow up...

So I have not been happy with it, for several reasons.

It sounds good from the sweetspot. From everywhere else, it’s a mess. It sounded significantly better with one sub.

Because of the room and furniture, I have no way of placing the subs anywhere else, other than further to the right and left 1 or 2 feet.

The high pass filter will arrive next week and I will try that.

The lessons learned is that when there are conflicting statements (below) trust your ear. Don’t listen to the experts. (Not that they don’t know infinitely more or don’t mean well, but they are not in your room, and don’t have your limitations.) The whole setup and room are so specific, if it sounds good, and changing it makes it worse, be a coward go back to what you liked. Enjoy the music, not the gear.

"get a sub".

"one sub is not enough. get at least two. or four"

"get a high pass/low pass filter"

"don’t have any overlap in the bass"

"don’t add a high pass filter to a full range speaker?"

(and yes, all of these statements can be true,

Attached is the current setup. I still don’t know if the sub is supposed to get full signa as before or just left or right.

I know a lot more than the beginning of this thread. But still not enough to make meaningful improvements. High level vs low level; high pass filter or low, no filter, I still don’t see the obvious preferences.

@immatthewj

That, my friend is the question. I've no idea if it would sound better or worse. That's simply how I'd do it. Can't win a prize if you don't buy a ticket!

thank you @curiousjim! I will message you

Hey grizz,

 I have a set of AQ rca y adapters you can borrow. PM me if you’re interested.

If that’s the case I believe you can hook it up the way I suggested, like daisy chaining. Don’t know if that’s something you want to try but I’d sure be curious how it works out for you. Seems simpler than buying all that other stuff.

@thecarpathian , but why (or how) would that sound any better than the way @grisly is already hooked up?

so the High-pass RCA link is the simplest, it's a plug that has the filter inside? All the signal that comes out of it is above 100Hz? Reading the reviews, it's simple and effective.

Yes, that is what it does, blocks everything below 100hz. Just plug it in on the RCA cable. 

@thecarpathian I tried everything you guys suggested :)

Even what nobody ever suggested or advised against...

@llg98ljk

that looks reasonable does it have an A+B setting or just A or B?

Grisly, I have not read through this whole lengthy discussion but I did see the post about an amp switcher, If this is still in play, may I suggest one called Solupeak P2.

It is an Amazon choice item, currently priced at $66.40 and has no meters. I purchased one to switch between my big (old) Yamaha and my Emotiva A2 amps.

It works like a charm and appears to be of decent quality. So far, has worked flawlessly in my system.

Thanks guys, I totally missed it. So, it would stand to reason sub2 puts out a full signal also.

If that’s the case I believe you can hook it up the way I suggested, like daisy chaining. Don’t know if that’s something you want to try but I’d sure be curious how it works out for you. Seems simpler than buying all that other stuff.

yes, and now I know about the impedance but the wattage ... back 1 step

thanks @immathewj

we were on two different high pass filters, now I get it.

. . . and both of them basically performing the same function.

"@thecarpathian

Does the speaker level output on sub1 put out the full signal or a high pass filtered signal?

This was asked before, it puts out the full signal according to my tests and @deep_333"

And, although already asked and answered, I will add that the manual for my old M&K sub (which I realize does not represent all subs) states explicitly that it does not utilize a high pass filter.

thanks @immathewj

we were on two different high pass filters, now I get it.

@thecarpathian

Does the speaker level output on sub1 put out the full signal or a high pass filtered signal?

This was asked before, it puts out the full signal according to my tests and @deep_333

@grislybutter - the Web page (parts express) says 250W RMS. The wire is pretty thin for 100W, I'd say. Would anyone run that thin wire from amp to speakers? I hope that cap is not electrolytic. Basically, parts quality should not be less than the speaker crossover.

Question to anyone:

Does the speaker level output on sub1 put out the full signal or a high pass filtered signal?

@immathewj

this is the high pass filter, I don't see two sets of outputs

@grisly, this is what I was referring to:

high pass filter

The guy who is selling this is calling it a " Passive Electronic Crossover High Pass Filter Subwoofer C", but I just looked at the manual that came with mine, and at the time, M&K was calling it a high pass filter.

@mikhailark do you mean low wattage?

mine is a 100Watts

be careful what you wish for 

Except I don't know what a streamer is. 

I am an "analog guy"

In that event, here's a guide to whip up a filter that's better tailored for your gear.

Guide

https://gr-research.com/hi-pass-filters/

@mswale so the High-pass RCA link is the simplest, it's a plug that has the filter inside? All the signal that comes out of it is above 100Hz? Reading the reviews, it's simple and effective.

@mswale - that ’speaker’ filter does not specify power rating. Judging from the picture it would only work with few watts amp. '250 W RMS', well, we've all seen boomboxes with '1000 Watts' stickers...

LOL, knew I opened up a can-o-worms. 

There are of course several ways to do this.....

Using RCA cables, they make filters that attach right to the end of the cable, then go into the amp. 

They also make ones that go on the speakers these would go in series with the speaker cable, through the XO, then out to the speakers.

For both options you would need 2 pieces of each. Both are about the same price, with their own pro/con 

Yes, you would want a hi-pass filter for the mains, and a low-pass for the subs. Sorry for the confusion 

high-pass

Hi-pass RCA

here is some info so you can better understand....

https://gr-research.com/hi-pass-filters/

thanks @yogiboy that much I figured :)

You would need one per speaker! Are you sure that you are not mixing up a high pass filter with a high pass xover?

@immathewj

this is the high pass filter, I don't see two sets of outputs