@immatthewj
I also thought of this. I know it’s lame but fairly cheap and maybe by Christmas I can budget for it; it could be nice visuals and a speaker "multiplier". If it could handle it.
Douk Audio VU3 Dual Analog VU Meter, 2-Way Amplifier/Speaker Switch
Welllll, @griz . . . unless I am missing something, it appears as if it’s main function (besides providing the meters) is to give one the option of quickly switching between two amps and between two sets of speakers (simply by flipping a switch)? I suppose if that function would make your life easier. . . .
A lot of my preconceived notions (which I do keep an open mind about, and which are frequently debunked here) were formed when I started buying "better" gear back in ’94, and at that time I did not have a PC (and even after I did get a PC I didn’t start checking out audio forums until maybe around ’20), so these notions that I am referring to came from telephone conversations with manufacturer’s tech support people and . . . (wait for it) . . . reading Stereophile (Yuk). As I typed a few sentences ago, I do keep an open mind and I do read a lot of threads/posts here on A’gon and I try to digest and consider seriously a lot of what I read.
But that was a lot of typing to say that my notion about "purity of signal" was formed way back when, and after reading the arguments (for example) about speaker wire and interconnects (which I had always in the past thought that the benefits of were accepted and a given, and you can see that I was wrong--not universally accepted OR a given) I have no doubt that the "purity of signal" notion is wide open to debate. So wide open, in fact, that if it ever came up, I’d stay out of it--I’d read for a while, but I’d stay clear.
However, my theory has always been I’d rather keep stuff out of the signal path unless its benefits (whatever they might be) outweighed what I felt was the risk of degrading the signal.
I am going to type a bit more than I planned when I started: so I know that there is going to be an argument--"Put in in the signal path, and if you hear degradation then remove it; if you don’t hear degradation, you were wrong and it didn’t have an effect on anything." But I have never bragged about my hearing and I don’t think I hear stuff that way. For example, put a teeny tiny scratch or pit, one that may be nearly invisible, in my glasses and then give me a pair of identical glasses with flawless lens and ask me to do a blind (no pun intended) test. It would probably be a guessing game. But that doesn’t mean that there is no affect on my visibility that might become just a teeny bit noticeable on, for example, a ten hour road trip. Not so much noticeable that at the end of ten hour drive I’d be like, "OMG!! My left eye hurts and everything is blurry!" but just enough that my visual fatigue was a tiny bit worse than in might have been otherwise. And then throw in another tiny scratch and another tiny pit. . . .
Generally I hate analogies, but that was the best I way I could think of to illustrate part of my theory on listening and hearing. And someone will probably read this and comment on what a pile of crap my theories are, but that doesn’t usually bother me.
So back to putting stuff in the signal path: if it makes your life easier and being easier is not obvious audible degradation, I wouldn’t find fault in someone doing it.
The ’Y’ splitters, for example, make hooking your sub up way way easier and also allow you to go straight from your amp with your speaker wires, which in itself may outweigh any blemish they add to the signal. I honestly don’t know, but if it was me, I’d certainly be willing to try it.
As far as the high pass filter I went on and on ad nauseam about, a tech support guy suggested I try that. He explained the benefits of cleaning up the point where the sub integrates with the speaker, and also how the amp would appreciate not having to drive anything below 80 hZ and how the speakers would appreciate not being fed a signal below 80 hZ. I don’t remember being instantly amazed by the sub/speaker integration (it’s quite possible I didn’t know all what I was listening to back then) but what did strike me IMMEDIATELY was how much more dynamic things instantly became.
But then a dealer and also a different tech support guy (at different times) infected me with the "purity of signal" notion, and I had bought bigger amps that were more dynamic without the filter, and I had equipment with truly balanced circuits and using those precluded RCAs in the high pass filter . . . anyway, I went another route. But at the time I was using it, I believe that the benefits truly out weighed the possible degradation caused in the path by a "crappy box" with its poteniometers and extra pair of interconnects.
That took me way too many words to say that if it was me I’d be inclined not to put in that switching box that I started this reply out talking about . . . but it comes down to whether the possible negatives are outweighed by what it does to your own personal enjoyment of your system.
Oh well . . . Ramble On. . . .
|
@grisly, that's interesting. I think that is the one method that has not been suggested by anybody in this thread: L speaker output from amp to L speaker and L speaker to L sub. And then the same for the R side.
|
We are in this hobby because we look for the perfect sound.
. . . nope; I came to realize long ago that this achievement would be way beyond my capabilities. But there are nights and/or afternoons that I am quite pleased with what my system does do, and I can live with that.
|
. . . @grislybutter , after I posted that last post, I got to wondering which speaker I was thinking of. I did some googles and now I am pretty sure it was actually the B&W 801 Matrix. Not that it has any relevance to this thread, here is a picture of it. (It’s bigger in real life than the pic makes it look.) Doesn’t it look kind of like a 2 way speaker sitting on top of a subwoofer?
B&W 801
|
thanks @immathewj
we were on two different high pass filters, now I get it.
. . . and both of them basically performing the same function.
|
@grislybutter ,
It sounds good from the sweetspot. From everywhere else, it’s a mess. It sounded significantly better with one sub.
on this, it would make a big difference to me whether the SQ in the sweet spot was SIGNIFICANTLY better than before. If it was, I’d probably say it was a compromise/sacrifice I’d make. But that would be me in my listening room.
Because of the room and furniture, I have no way of placing the subs anywhere else, other than further to the right and left 1 or 2 feet.
I have never claimed to be an expert with this stuff, but I would think this might make things tough, as I am thinking placement/location is probably critical I cannot tell from your picture whether the subs are to the rear or to the front of your speakers, and I am sure that this might factor in to the SQ result. When you were a one sub family, where was your one sub located? Quite a long time ago I posted a question about subwoofer location (I only have one sub) and a link provided in a reply I received strongly recommended two subs (much like you were acting on) and suggested that the desired location would be in the rear of the room versus in the proximity of the speakers.
"get a high pass/low pass filter"
We’ve been over this ad nauseam, so I’ll try not to be overly redundant . . . you already have LP filters built into the subs, and I did see that you are waiting for a HP filter in the mail to try out. Pros and cons: the sub will produce bass up to a certain hZ (probably not an absolutely clean chop off at that frequency) and then the midrange drivers of your mains will take over at theoretically where the bass from the subs stopped/another pro (imo) would be using RCAs versus speaker wire to connect the sub, which, among other things, MIGHT allow you to find more flexibility in locating your subs. But one con I see is putting something else in the signal path between your preamp and amp (assuming that is how the HP you are waiting for hooks up).
"don’t have any overlap in the bass"
"don’t add a high pass filter to a full range speaker?"
On this: I just don’t see how a whole lot of overlap between the mains and the subs could be a good thing. I’ve already said that I know I am not an expert on this subject, but that just SEEMS to defy all the logic that I had previously been exposed to. But I have had my preconceived notions debunked here on A’gon before. As far as not using a HP with a full range speaker? Going back to my preconceived notions: I would have been inclined to live in the camp that wouldn’t try to integrate subs with good full range speakers that were capable of getting down into the low frequencies. As a matter of fact, and this goes back to about 30 years aago, I seem to remember when I set my subwoofer based system up that the prevailing logic was, at the time, subwoofers were to augment two way speakers. I’ve read enough here on A’gon to know that if that actually was truly the "prevailing" logic, it no longer is. BUT: I would think that if one was running sub(s) with full range speakers, it would be important to set the lowpass filters on the subs low enough so that the mains and the subs were not reproducing the SAME huge range of low frequencies. And I think I remember you saying that the low pass on those subs only cuts off as low as 80 hZ? Meaning that your subs are going to try to reproduce AT LEAST from 80 on down. And since your mains are rated down to 50(?), even if they are not making it honestly all the way down that low, that still seems to me to be a recipe that calls for a HP or a crossover.
Attached is the current setup. I still don’t know if the sub is supposed to get full signa as before or just left or right.
Although I don’t recall this method being suggested before in your thread, I would THINK that the full signal going to the binding posts of your speakers would pass on (after your speakers) to the subs.
I know a lot more than the beginning of this thread. But still not enough to make meaningful improvements. High level vs low level; high pass filter or low, no filter, I still don’t see the obvious preferences.
Well, knowledge comes from experimentation--both successful and unsuccessful. You’ve tried high level and low level, and when you get the HP filter I assume you will try low level again (with high pass), and as far as
high pass filter or low, no filter,
your subs utilize LP filters and you have not yet used a highpass filter. But I will be waiting to hear how that works out for you. Staying tuned. . . .
|
An external high pass filter maybe? I bought a M&K external high pass,around 30 years ago, give or take, and I don't recall it costing an arm an leg.
Anyway, in a nutshell (if I've got this right from memory) your RCA outs from preamp will go into highpass/from high pass L & R RCA out to amp and also L&R RCA out to subwoofer. I do not remember at what frequency mine was preset to roll the bass off to the sub. Mine has a treble level adjustment (speakers) and bass level adjustment (sub).
Besides allowing you to use RCA cables to hook up sub, other benefits are freeing the amp up from as much bass as it was powering before, which also frees up the speakers from trying to reproduce as much bass as they were before.
I remember at the time immediately hearing things sound much more dynamic with the smaller stereo tube amp (Cary SLA70) I was using at the time.
I also remember a dealer basically turning up his nose at the notion of using one. "Another crappy box," he told me. But he didn't use the term 'crappy.'
I quit using it when I became a 'purity of signal' snob and also because I bought bigger amps and they seemed dynamic enough without it, and also because I had acquired equipment with truly balanced circuits that I wanted to use and the M&K high pass only has RCA ins and outs.
Like everything, pros and cons. But long story short--that would probably solve the blowing fuses issue you are having.
|
I can’t buy another component, I have to make what I have work.
I gotcha; I totally understand.
But I am going to ask anyway if I am understanding this correctly:
Just one RCA out from preamp.
You are saying just one pair of RCAs (L&R) out from the preamp (going to the amp), correct?
That's what I interpreted, anyway, when you said you had no sub out in your preamp. I understand what you were saying about not buying another component, but I'll clarify what I was saying anyway:
the highpass filter goes between the pre and the amp. In other words, that one pair of RCAs out to the amp now goes IN to the highpass filter. (Highpaass filter then rolls off the bass, but I am not sure at what frequency). There are two pairs of RCA outs in the highpass filter, and the pair with the bass connects to the subs (although in my case it was sub as in singular), and then the pair with the remaining treble goes to the amp.
|
Grizzly, even though I know what you said and I respect that and I understand, since a pic is theoretically worth a lot of words, here is what my high pass looks like. I am only posting this as it may clarify my explanation. And A’gon may not let it be posted . . . I’ve never had a lot of luck posting links here.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/116023312749
|
this looks also cool (but $ already too high
Okay, so that’s a low pass filter, which, if I’ve got this right and your sub is the same as mine, is the adjustable part that sets where the frequency that the sub reproduces will be cut off at..
"A low-pass filter (LPF) is a circuit that only passes signals below its cutoff frequency while attenuating all signals above it. It is the complement of a high-pass filter, which only passes signals above its cutoff frequency and attenuates all signals below it."
|
Grizzly, I am confused (but that doesn’t take much) picture 1.
I’ve never hooked my sub up via speaker wire, but I save all my manuals, so I just went to my M&K sub manual and looked at it, and it appears as if they are saying to hook up as you show in picture 2.
Left + & - out of amp goes into left + and - i "from sub" inputs in subwoofer.
Right + & - out of amp goes into right + & - "from sub" inputs in the sub.
At the sub, in my manual, it shows two sets of (one for L and the other for R) TO SPEAKER outs.
I am not understanding how you wired it in pic one.
I could scan the diagram in my manual and attach it to a reply if that would help?
But on edit: being computer illiterate, I don’t see how to include an attachment on this site?
|
Grizzly, let me add two more things:
what I described in my last post was a diagram showing how to use only ONE sub. However, I truly do not think that it would change if you were using two subs, except that you would not use both left and right ins and outs from one sub--in other words left sub would use only left in and only left out/and then the same for the right sub to right speaker. Sorry because I know that this is way more than obvious, but I felt the need just in case.
The second thing is my manual shows a second option with speaker wire, BUT this is for amps or receivers that feature an OUTPUT 1 (for speaker wires) and ALSO an OUTPUT 2 (for speaker wires).
I am going to assume that you do not have that (I don't think I've ever owned anything that had that) but just in case: that diagram shows OUTPUT 1 (speaker wires) hooked to L & R speakers as per the usual way, and it shows OUTPUT 2 (speaker wires) hooking to the speaker wire inputs in the sub. And note that in this configuration, the speaker wire outputs from the sub are NOT being utilized. And again, this diagram is for only ONE sub, but if two were being utilized, obviously one sub would connect to L and the other to R. (Even though I know how obvious that is.) So I am pretty sure you don't have two sets of speaker wire OUTs in your amp, but in the way way way off chance that you do, there is also that option.
|
|
It worked!! Thanks, @dill !!! I am diagnoseably computer illiterate, but now, thanks to you, a tad bit less. That’s the second thing I’ve learned in the last ten minutes!
On edit: that is transformational!
|
Hmmm, I guess "Outlaw" was an appropriate name for it.
Did you get your subs working yet, via speaker wires to sub and out of sub?
I just re-read your OP, and out of curiosity, what is your second sub?
And your original (first) sub?
And also, since I am ASSUMING that your original single sub was hooked up and operating via speaker wire connections, is it at all possible that a problem is existing with the second sub that is causing the fuse to blow?
|
Few bucks of fuses are not the end of the World.
Hopefully you have not been using fuses that are orange, purple, or blue?
|
Griz, I am intrigued by those Polks. My M&K is ancient . . . it was the piece of gear that started me down this road to hell. I think that was near the end of ’93, either that or very early in ’94. M&K (apparently at least at that time) didn’t believe in fancy power cords. Hardwired from the amp section is not much more than lamp cord with a two blade plug. I have no doubt that my sub is the weakest piece of my system, and it has been for some time. As I typed, I am intrigued by those Polks.
I do need to correct something I typed about the high pass filter. At least the one I put a link to a picture of. I said it rolled off the bass to the sub. That was incorrect--a low pass filter would roll off the bass to the sub. That high pass sends the full signal from the the preamp out to the sub, where the frequency is then adjusted at the low pass that is integral to the sub.
(I got curious so I dug out the high pass filter instructions.) So what the high pass filter therefore must do (although I cannot find this spelled out) is to roll off the bass FROM the preamp TO the amplifier (and therefore the speakers). But, I am not sure at what the frequency cut off is that it allows to the amplifier. But the idea is to provide a cleaner separation of bass between the speakers and the sub(s).
Oops! So I’ll insert an edit: I just did some searches only to satisfy my own curiosity, and evidently that particular high pass filter is set to allow 80hZ and up FROM the preamp To the amp (and therefore the speakers).
Not that this is applicable to you; however, since I typed it and got it wrong but can no longer edit, I just felt the need to correct that part. Ramble on. . . .
|
@immatthewj I am sufficiently confused as I try to visualize it with my limited options but at least I am positive you know how it works on your end. My setup - if my Outlaw had worked I think it would be
Sorry, @grislybutter , for the confusion. Although I understand and respect that this is not an option you presently want to consider, I still feel compelled to do a better job of explaining it.
Okay, your L & R RCAs outs FROM preamp would go TO the L & R RCA ins in the high pass filter.
The high pass filter would have TWO PAIRS of RCA OUTs.
The high pass filter would send the full frequency signal to the subwoofer via the pair of RCAs designated subwoofer,
however, the high pass would only send an 80 hZ and up signal out of the pair of RCAs designated speakers, and these RCAs would connect to your amp. So if you think about it, now your amp is only reproducing 80 and up, and therefore your speakers are only trying to reproduce 80 and up.
Back at the sub, which is getting a full frequency signal from the high pass filter, the user would probably set the adjustment (and this would be the low pass filter that one would adjust on the sub) to 80 or 85 hZ to start with. So what one would be doing, in theory if it was a clean chop off of frequencies, is having the sub reproduce everything exactly under 80 hZ and having the speakers reproduce everything exactly above 80 hZ. In a perfect world, there would be no overlap between the sub and the speakers. (And also, even in a less than perfect world, both the amp and the speakers are now free of the work of trying to reproduce frequency below 80 hZ which should free them up to do a better job on the higher frequencies.)
But they tell me it is not a perfect world, and it is not a clean EXACT cut off at 80 hZ and therefore the adjustment at the sub (the low pass filter) needs to be played with and tweaked a bit, usually starting at around 85 hZ.
Hopefully I was able to clarify that & clear up any confusion I may have created.
However, much simpler, as @mitch2 just said, would be an RCA ’Y’ splitter at each RCA out of your preamp (L & R). From left one RCA would go to left RCA IN of your amp and also to the RAC IN of your left subwoofer/and then the same for the right.
|
@immatthewj thanks for the clarification. It wasn't your fault, I am easily confused. Your explanations are always very thorough.
I am looking up Y splitters now on Amazon.
@grislybutter , I've actually used 'Y' splitters for something I was doing with my HT setup (way back in the days of Dolby Prologic when I had a HT set up) and I don't know why I didn't mention that before. Something about 'Y' splitters from preamp seems intrinsically impure to me, but thinking about it, it cannot be as impure as "another crappy box" (with a pair of pots) and an extra pair of interconnects that were not there before.
And also, just out of curiosity I feel compelled to ask, did you try speaker wire out to sub and then out to speaker on both the left and right side? (In other words, treating each sub/speaker as an extension of each other?) Just wondering if you did and how it went. . . .
|
@immatthewj I have the same feeling about Y splitters, not very audiophile-ish. But - also cheaper than a box.
I have not tried "serializing" subs and speakers. I want the signal to go from my amp directly to the speakers to somehow justify my semi-decent Morrow Audio speaker cables. (In the same time, at my level, speaker cables don’t matter)
I will not argue the impressions of audiophiles but I don’t believe there is any electrical difference between preamps with two rca outputs and what is accomplished by the splitter.
@grislybutter , not only are they cheaper than a box, they may well provide a less blemished signal than a box with poteniometers, and a box that also requires an extra pair of RCA cables to connect it between the preamp and the amp.. And I would feel the same way as you do about the speaker wires--I’d prefer to have them going directly from my amp to the speakers. Which I guess is why I always ran my sub with RCA cables.
@mitch2 , I really don’t know the answer to that. I have no doubt that if a thread was started on the subject, there would be a lot stating just that POV. And that may well be the case. I will say this, however, at one time I was running a Muse Model Two dac, and that particular dac was set up with a BNC input for the digital cable. Which I had to have made, because the digital out on the component that was feeding it were NOT BNC. Anyway, after years of use, my custom made digital cable started going bad and the dac would come unlocked from the incoming signal. BUT: in their infinite wisdom, Muse had provided a BNC to RCA adapter that could be inserted into the BNC port of the dac and then could be connected to the component in front of it with a cable that was RCA on both ends (which I just happened to have a couple of). So I was thinking, "Great," and that’s what I did. Even with my ears I could hear that it didn’t sound as good that way.
But, I am in no way saying that a ’Y’ splitter out of a preamp is the same as a BNC to RCA adapter for a digital cable.
|
I think I have a compromised system
I am also a member of that club.
it’s a glass with dirt on it, an extra layer of dirt won’t make a huge difference
That is absolutely one way to look at it. Of course, the other way to look at it is. . . .
And despite my limitations, I love listening to my rig,
And that’s a healthy attitude and one I try live by myself. If there is something I think that I can easily and affordably correct, I will give it a try. But sure, there are always compromises and certain sacrifices to be made in an imperfect world. I think that ’Y’ connectors out of a preamp MIGHT be a degree of a compromise that MIGHT sacrifice the siganl to a degree (to what degree I won’t venture, and "might" was an operative word), but what you get for that compromise is the ability to hook your subs up with RCAs and go straight to your speakers from the amp. That might be worth the compromise, and I guess the only way to know for sure would be to try both ways and compare. And I, personally, hate making audio comparisons, although some members seem to literally thrive on it.
As far as my analogy . . . that applies to the way I believe that my hearing works and not necessarily yours or anyone else’s. After I was thinking about it for a while, I actually thought of a better analogy for myself. Do you remember quite a long time ago hearing about when movie theaters were doing something to the effect of slipping in a quick frame of a cheese burger or something delicious every so many frames of the movie they were showing? The frame of the cheeseburger (or whatever it was) came and went so quickly that no one in the audience actually realized that they saw it. But, cheeseburger sales at the concessions counter increased dramatically. Or something like that--I don’t remember the exact details. But where I am going with that is that I believe my own hearing works kind of like that. I may not think I hear something that incrementally improves or degrades the performance of my system, but over time I start to realize that I am experiencing an increased level of comfort in my listening experiences (note the plural form) or, on the other hand, an increased level of listening fatigue and less desire to go back to my room and listen.
Just my own personal theory on my own personal hearing is all.
Not long ago I posted a question about power cords, and what one of the respondents replied with was mind blowing to me. Mind blowing in the differences he said he heard with different cords. That ability to hear (and identify what I hear) is wayyyyy beyond me.
|
Update:
I implemented the @carlsbad2 method and it works nicely
Which is picture #2 of the pictures you posted, correct?
Are you still going to try out a pair of "Y" splitters from Amazon just to see if you like RCAs to subs better? For what those splitters (probably?) cost, I would.
And, more importantly, how is the sound of (now having) TWO subs (count ’em!) sounding? Kickass?
|
. . . sorry about this, but one last thing: I just did some cursory searches, and apparently it was "subliminal messaging" related to coke (the cola kind) and popcorn that may or may not have been successfully done back in ’57 to get people at the movie to subconsciously crave coke and popcorn. Whether or not that experiment was truly performed as claimed, I still believe that a lot of my hearing works in that manner--I do not consciously realize all that I, personally, am hearing, although I believe that it may register in my subconscious and have a positive or negative long term affect on my listening experiences.
Sorry about that, but I did feel the need to type a correction to that post. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . .
|
Okay, that’s as described previously and what i was thinking and looks like pic 2 of your picture post (except that you didn’t have the speakers in that diagram)::
speaker wire out of L speaker post in amp into L sub and speaker wire out of L sub out to L speaker & repeat for R side.
But, MORE IMPORTANTLY: how do TWO subs sound?
|
Y splitters hook 2 sets of drivers in parallel, which halves the inductance. So the amp current doubles going into the low impedene load and it trips. You are lucky your amp has a breaker and does’t just fail from the high current.
Never hook 2 loads up in parallel to one set of speaker outputs.
But the ’Y’ splitters are not going to be connected to the amp, they are going to be used in the RCA outs of the preamp in order to send a full frequency signal to the subs and then also the RCA ins of the amp?
|
previous Y connector discussion
Klipsch forum discussion of Y connectors from preamp
AVS Y splitter from preamp discussion
AV forums discussion on Y splitters from preamp
I feel like a kid with a new toy with this url thing that @Dill showed me how to use!
Anyway, @griz, I don't know enough about this stuff to say you can or cannot safely do this, but I do know that back in my days of HT I called Cary Audio and asked the tech guy whether it would be okay to split the signal from pre with a 'Y' splitter, and the tech guy was okay with it. What I was doing is not the same as what you are doing, however, I wanted to try (and did actually do this for a while) splitting the center channel signal from my HT preamp and sending 1/2 to one side of my Cary tube amp, and then sending the other half to the other side of that same Cary amp, and then basically using that to biamp (so to speak) my center speaker.
Which is not what you are doing, as you are wanting to send one signal to two different amps, and do that two times (signal split to main amp L RCA in and also to L sub RCA in and then the same for the R side).
Maybe post that question on amps and preamps forum and maybe @atmasphere may see it and provide an answer.
|
Are you saying the in and out connections on my subs have a crossover in between them? What I am curious if it’s a filter actually, filtering anything out that maybe shouldn’t be
@grisly: hopefully someone will chime in and offer an explanation I can wrap my head around. For the time being I will say that it is my understanding that the dial on back of your sub where you adjust frequencies is the low pass filter, and that this adjustable low pass filter is what determines at what frequency the subwoofer starts trying to reproduce bass. In other words, if you set the low pass filter at, for an example, 60, theoretically your sub would reproduce 60 hZ and LOWER. In a perfect world your main left and right speakers, and this is just a hypothetical example, would reproduce bass down to 60 hZ and then quit, and in that same perfect world, your sub would reproduce NOTHING higher than 60 hZ, and this would be perfect sub/speakers integration (as I understand that when the sub and speakers start reproducing the same range of certain frequencies, using another hypothetical example: sub and speakers overlapping from 50 to 70 hZ this OVERLAP is when bass gets "muddy").
(So to "muddy" the waters some more, remember when I was attempting to explain the high pass filter? Using my high pass filter as an example, it is preset to pass on frequencies of 80 hZ and HIGHER to the main speakers. In the perfect world that I understand does not actually exist, if one was using a high pass filter that was passing on frequencies of 80 hZ and HIGHER to the mains, , then setting the lowpass filter on the sub to 80 hZ would mean that the sub is going to make bass from 80 hZ and LOWER. Perfect integration. But I understand room acoustics and other variables usually prevent frequencies from being lopped off EXACTLY where the filters are set.)
I did a search using does a subwoofer have a crossover for a search engine. Found a forum where someone provided this answer:
"Does a subwoofer have a crossover or a lowpass filter?
within the context of a sub. Same thing. However the crossover is designed to also feed the non-sub speaker.
A crossover separates the signal. Over the point goes one way, under goes another. Only the under would get used on a sub. The rest are used on the non-sub speakers of a system.
A low pass just removes and throws away stuff over the point."
So if I understand that correctly, and it seems quite possible that I do not, if the sub does have a crossover, it would come into play if and when one was using speaker wire from L and R speaker posts in amp out to L & R speaker inputs in subs, and then speaker wires out of subs into main speakers. And the crossover would determine at what frequency the signal would cross over to the main speakers.
Don’t take that last paragraph I just typed to the bank yet. Let’s hope some one who is knowledgeable on this subject weighs in and clarifies how this works..
|
And overall, the "sound chaos" I sometimes had when I set the frequency on the sub too high is gone.
. . . hmmmm. Before you were using the speaker wire from amp out to sub and then speaker wire out to mains mode before, right? So maybe that shoots down my theory about crossover in sub to speaker wire from sub to mains theory making the frequency adjustment on back of the sub inactive.
|
It does sound "thinner" maybe because I am keeping the low frequency from the speakers and I should dial it down.
I am assuming from this comment above that you are using speaker level input at this time, and if the way I interpreted that quote is accurate, the quote that I provided in my last post, what would be going on in that mode is the crossover in the sub is determining at what frequency the signal makes it to your mains. (Which actually should provide better integration, I would think.) However, as I also typed in my last post, I may not be understanding that correctly.
If it’s sounding "thinner" I guess there are a few possibilities. Subwoofer break in, meaning the amp, the driver, the crossover, probably the whole shebang of the new sub, probably enters into it. I am assuming that now you have one sub that is well broken in and one that is brand spanking new. You could play with the ’level" adjustments (NOT the frequency adjustments, which I am still assuming is aka the low pass filter) on back of the subs and see if that changes anything to your liking, but I am assuming that you have already done that.
With everything I have just typed, I do not know if a sub would have both a low pass filter and a crossover or only one or the other. It seems to me, and as I always say--I could very well be wrong, that in order to be able to use the RCAs, in that mode, it would have to have a low pass filter. Because if you think about it, in that mode your sub is operating independent of the mains. Your mains are not directly connected to the sub when you are using RCAs, therefore, a crossover in the sub would have no effect on the mains. So in the RCAs mode, what you would want to do is figure out how low (at what frequency) your mains are going down to, and then use that as the basis to start playing with the frequency adjustment of the low pass filter on back of the sub.
So if I’ve got that part right, then if you were using the speaker wires-from-amp-to-sub-then-out-to-mains-mode, then in that scenario it would be the crossover in the sub that would determine where the frequency that arrived at the main speakers would be. It would no longer be a full frequency signal the mains are seeing.
And if I’ve got all that right, which it is quite possible that I don’t, in the speaker wire and crossover of sub mode, it almost seems as if the frequency adjustment on back of the sub (the low pass filter) would not be active?
But then again, I may have all of that completely wrong.
Incredible how simple minded I can be and clueless about such simple things. Until I am not!
You and me both.
One benefit would be, if the frequencies were split, for the bookshelf speakers to have to produce the sound in a smaller range - which then makes the sub placement even more important.
That certainly seems as if it would be a benefit IF I have got that right about the speaker wire mode and the crossover. And yes, I can absolutely see that in either mode (RCAs/lowpaass or speaker wire/crossover) placement of the subwoofer is going to make a difference. But now I think I just realized what you are saying about that? If there is a crossover that lets frequency cross over from the sub to the mains at a fixed point, if you have your sub placed badly and there is a "hole" up around the crossover point of the frequency that the sub should be reproducing, then you are going to hear that hole as a bass deficit? Versus if you were using RCAs and the adjustable low pass on the back of the sub to adjust frequencies, that "hole" would be less likely to occur with your mains getting a full frequency signal?
|
Wouldn't you just run the speaker wires from the amp to the inputs of subwoofer 1, then run speaker wires from the subwoofer 1 outputs to the inputs of subwoofer 2. Then run speaker wires from the outputs of subwoofer 2 to your speakers?
@carpathian , I am not a bright light when it comes to this stuff, but what the manual for my M&K sub indicates for one sub (using speaker wire mode) is L speaker wire from amp to L speaker wire IN in sub and then from L speaker wire OUT in sub to L speaker. And then repeat for the R speaker wire.
That’s with ONE sub.
But it makes me think that the way to go with two subs is: from amp/to L speaker wire to IN in L sub/R speaker wire out of amp to R speaker wire IN in R sub/and then from L speaker wire OUT in L sub/out to L main speaker/and from R speaker wire OUT in R sub/out to R main speaker.
And I believe that this is the way @grislybutter is presently up & running with.
|
I need an aspirin...
@thecarpathian,
It’s really not that complex, and I guess I just did a poor job of describing it. My fault.
Instead of the speaker wires going from the amp to the L & R speakers, instead the speaker wires goes to the L & R subs. Then from the L sub to the L speaker, and from the R sub to the R speaker.
(So each speaker is sort of an extension of each sub.)
I am pretty sure that’s the way @grisly is now wired.
I only have one sub, and since I am using the balanced circuit from my preamp in to the balanced circuit of my amp, I used the RCA OUTs in my preamp to go to the L and the R RCA INs in my sub. I've been thinking about it since this thread started, and I think I can see where speaker wire connections from amp/to sub/out to main speakers MIGHT be desirable for myself. But the thing is, I was also thinking, the quality of signal that might give me to my speakers (which is the termination of that signal) MIGHT be affected by the quality of parts in the sub which I am sure is affected by the quality of the sub . . . and my sub is pretty much obsolete.
|
@griz, going back a few posts--I don’t claim to be a bright light on this. But to me it just makes more sense to go from the L speaker post of amp into the L sub and from there in to the L speaker and then the same for the R side.
I don’t think there is such a smart crossover inside this cheap sub that would split the signal. I think the full signal goes out, but that’s just my assumption. I will post a question on the polk forum, it’s always very active.
Please post your findings; at this point I am quite curious and interested about this.
The Y splitters should arrive tonight, will be interesting how it sounds.
I am also curious about what you are going to hear when you experiment with that. Please post your feelings about what you hear. But I also think that your sonic perceptions may change as the new sub breaks in.
At this point I am embarrassed about a number of remaining questions, so I will just keep them to myself and play with it to try to confirm my assumptions...
I can relate to that myself (being embarrassed about some of my questions, that is), but a long time ago someone once told me that, "The only stupid question is the one you didn’t ask." But I am still frequently inhibited anyway, and people still make fun of questions that they perceive as being stupid. So I understand where you are coming from. However, I actually learn a lot from threads like these, so I personally benefit from these questions, so I personally hope you ask your questions here on A’gon.
Here is an example of a question I didn’t ask because I thought the answer was obvious and I was sure that some one would say it was a stupid question: whenever there was a T’storm threatening, because when I put my system circuit in, the best place for me to put the outlets turned into a bit of a PITA, I used to just trip the circuit breaker for my system, but I was always wondering if a big enough surge could jump across a tripped breaker, but I thought, "Nahhhh, so I am not going to ask because I don’t need the derision." Then there was a "surge protector" thread on misc and that came up, and @JEA confirmed that a big enough surge certainly could jump across a tripped breaker. Now I unplug in bad weather, no matter how much of a PITA it is. But that’s just an example of a question that I should have asked but didn’t because I thought it was stupid.
As I often say: Ramble On. . . .
|
I unplugged the subs from wall, sub stayed dead, speakers still worked. Does it mean there is no crossover? Just wires?
@grizly, I am going to plead ignorance on that one at this point. When I came up with my crossover hypotheses I was basing it on the answer that @mitch2 posted earlier and then the discussion I found on another forum in answer to the question of whether a sub has a crossover. If the last answer you got is accurate, the speaker wire connection feeds a full frequency signal from the amp through the subs and to the main speakers. And if that is accurate, then I also ASSUME that the adjustable low pass filter on the back of the sub is also utilized in the speaker wire mode. So I guess if all that is true, the closest one could get get to having a crossover (for the subs) would be the high pass filter that I had been talking about in this thread, as it would cut frequencies off to the main speakers below whatever frequency it was set at.
So I honestly don’t know, if @deep says he has taken subwoofers apart, he has done way more than I ever have to them, and therefore would know way more than I about them, so if he is saying there is no crossover, I guess that’s the best I have to go on at this point. I’ll continue to watch this thread and see what else anyone might have to say on the subject.
|
The only way my way will work is if the output on sub1 sends the full signal to sub2, which it won’t. It’s low pass filter at the input I believe will stop the lows there and only pass on the higher signal through the high pass filter on its output to sub2 negating what having a second sub in the mix is for in the first place since no low Hz signal will be going to it.
Now you’ve got me going for my own supply of baby aspirin, @thecarpathian.
There’s only filters on your subs, not active.
Also use the crossovers and filters on the subs.
I apologize if I confused or frustrated anyone.
I am not at all frustrated, but I can understand how anyone could be confused after reading through all of this.
On edit: but be sure to let us know how you feel about the sound when you put the 'Y' splitters in.
|
. . . @griz: I don’t know if you’ve happened upon it yet, but if not, at this very moment there is a thread/discussion on the amps/preamps forum (right here on A’gon) about merging the sound of subs with the main speakers. (This thread is NOT about how to connect the speaker wire.) You may find it an interesting read and helpful to you for dialing your own subs in with your speakers.
ongoing discussion
On edit: you will probably also find the discussion interesting that is going on here in the 'speakers' forum about which input to use hooking up REL subs.
|
Also when done, make sure the subs are in phase. That will kill this entire process.
@mswale , if OP hooked up to both of his subs from amp + to + and - to -, and then he went from his subs to his speakers in the same manner (+ to + and - to -) is there any reason that his subs (or speakers) would be out of phase with each other? That is a serious question; OP did report that he felt that things sounded "thinner."
On edit: if OP uses 'Y' splitters from preamp and goes out to his subs via RCAs, there is no way the subs could wind up out of phase?
|
@immathewj I plugged in the splitters and rewired the speakers.
The speakers definitely "came forward". The subs seem to have a weaker signal - maybe because it's low level, but I can boost the gain for sure. I will listen now for a couple hours to my usual test CDs and albums
That actually sounds like a good thing to me?
Because you can play with your level adjustments on the subs and the setting of your low pass filters on the subs to see if you can bring more bass out?
Regardless, give it a good period of time to let that new sub break in and everything settle in.
|
@grisly, this thread and the many replies to it left me with a few questions about my own system (which is actually a good thing--to be periodically evaluating your system and possible changes that could be made to setting up the existing components),
so I finally got around to re-reading the manual for my ancient M&K sub to see if I could answer some of my own questions. Which is NOT to say that what applies to my old M&K sub/system applies to other sub/systems.
However, M&K stated emphatically (in bold print) that their subs (at least at the time, which was ’93) have no high pass filter (meaning to me--no crossover).
M&K, at the time, recommended using RCA versus speaker wire connections and stated it would give better bass performance from the sub.
They also explicitly said it was okay to use ’Y’ splitters from the preamp but they also said that "in many cases, the slight improvement this makes in bass quality may be offset by slight degradation of sound quality through the satellite speakers." They go on to say that they do not recommend ’Y’ splitters,, but "feel free to experiment." (As I assume you are presently doing.)
M&K really did seem to like, at the time, the idea of putting a high pass filter between the preamp and the amp and running the RCAs out TO the sub from the HP filter. I suppose that is why I bought one and went that route for a while. However, it should be noted that M&K also manufactured the HP filter they suggested that I use. (I may try it again as a result of this discussion, but if I do I’ll configure things a tiny bit differently--I’ll go balanced from my CDP into preamp, and then I’ll have to go RCAs out of my preamp the rest of the way.)
|
@griz, I didn't find your diagram to be fuzzy.
On to finding a new power amp.
An integrated might be the way to go at this point--particularly if you could find one with a pair of RCA outs in the preamp section for the subs.
|
@grisly, what are the specs on your mains? Or did you already say how low do they theoretically go, and I missed it?
|
I was asking about how low your L and R main speakers theoretically go.
|
@immatthewj
Frequency response ( 3dB): 40Hz 23kHz
my subs’ dial start at 80Hz so I can’t go below that.
Hmmm . . . if I am understanding the last sentence correctly, your sub is going from at least as high as 80 hZ and down? And that means that if your mains are actually making it down to 40, there is a lot of overlap. . . .
|
Ok so this would only work with the Y splitter - in the preamp - amp scenario?
As emphatically as possible: NO!!
(Give me a couple of minutes; I'll come back to this.)
|
I don’t mind adding a low pass filter and reconnecting my subs.
A high pass filter would actually simplify your subwoofer connection. Speakers would be. You’d need one extra pair of RCA interconnects to go from your preamp into your high pass and then RCAs from low pass to amp. Since you were able to try ’Y’ connectors out of your preamp, I assume you already have enough RCA to reach your subs. But remember, and not to start controversy, the quality of (RCA) interconnect cable (particularly to & from the low pass filter, imo) will make a difference.
I am interested in this low cost low pass solution, as it should fix the overlap.
Not only should this clean up a bit at where your subs and mains overlap, now your amp will be freed up not to be driving the low frequencies from your main speakers. There are pros and cons, but overall I think you may really like a HP filter in your system.
|
@grislybutter: I won’t try to speak for @mswale, but a HIGH PASS filter is what I thought he meant, and I certainly screwed up (OOPS!) when I posted above by referring to a HP filter a a LP filter. I edited my post.
You already have an adjustable low pass filter on your subwoofer. The high pass filter is what would edit the frequency of the signal going to your mains.
(So if the high pass filter was set at 80hZ your mains would then only theoretically only try to go down to 80, and then you could start playing with the low pass on your subs from 80 on up, and trying to match the subs with the mains.)
|
almost there. Very dumb question (you are used it to by now) does the high pass filter go between amp and main speakers? Or between preamp and amp?
OOPS for the 3rd time. I didn’t see this. Not a dumb question.
The high pass filter goes in between the preamp and the amp, the connections would be RCA cables. The high pass filter would have RCA outs to go to the subs.
What the highpass filter would do is only allow 80 hZ and up (if that was what it was set at) to go out to your amp. Therefore your mains would only see 80 hZ and up. However, the high pass filter would be sending the full frequency signal to your sub, where your existing low pass filter (which seems only adjustable down to 80 hZ) would regulate where the sub is supposed to start making bass.
However, I have been told, that even with these filters in place, the frequency cross over point is not usually a clean chop off, hence you might still need to play around with the low pass on the subs (from 80 on up).
|
OOPS again! I think maybe @mswale was talking about replacing the existing low pass filter that is already in your sub? To one that can be adjusted lower than 80 hZ to better match up with the low frequencies of your mains ? (I’ll stay out of it now.)
|
Ok so this would only work with the Y splitter - in the preamp - amp scenario?
Envision it this way: high pass filter INSTEAD of ’Y’ splitters.
FROM the preamp L & R RCA outs
TO the high pass L & R RCA ins
FROM the high pass there will be two sets of RCA outs
one set of RCA outs from high pass will be designated ’sub’ and obviously there will be a set of RCA cables from there to subs. This will be a full frequency signal that will be edited by the sub’s low pass.
The other set of RCA outs will be designated as ’amp’ (or something like that ) and that set of RCAs will go FROM high pass to the amp. It is this set of RCAs that will carry 80 hZ and above (if that is what the high pass is set at).
|
@immathewj
this is the high pass filter, I don't see two sets of outputs
@grisly, this is what I was referring to:
high pass filter
The guy who is selling this is calling it a " Passive Electronic Crossover High Pass Filter Subwoofer C", but I just looked at the manual that came with mine, and at the time, M&K was calling it a high pass filter.
|
"@thecarpathian
Does the speaker level output on sub1 put out the full signal or a high pass filtered signal?
This was asked before, it puts out the full signal according to my tests and @deep_333"
And, although already asked and answered, I will add that the manual for my old M&K sub (which I realize does not represent all subs) states explicitly that it does not utilize a high pass filter.
|
