speakers and cables

thanks for the links @immathewj I am diving into it

@llg98ljk

that looks reasonable does it have an A+B setting or just A or B?

@thecarpathian I tried everything you guys suggested :)

Even what nobody ever suggested or advised against...

@immathewj I have the splitter arriving tomorrow so yes, I will try it out. 

This is the carlsbad2 method:

I believe it's irrelevant to the question why it took me 90 minutes.

But if wondering about it is amusing to you, wonder away.

thanks @rhg3!

@akg_ca

I am using the high level inputs.

@noromance

that’s what I did, as shown on pics. Should I just wire left to left, right to right as on picture #2?

@immatthewj

most everything I have is crappy (except for my TT and bookshelf speakers). Just one RCA out from preamp. I can use a splitter

no sub out from amp

I can’t buy another component, I have to make what I have work.

It’s a 45 year old amp with the tightest binding posts. (That’s why it took 90 minutes, to group and isolate naked wires in 1/20 inches of spaces.)

this looks also cool (but $ already too high

https://shopgoodwill.com/item/203575181

thanks @immatthewj that makes sense.

I do have this

except that it does not work https://outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html

I bought it for $120 and it came busted and I can’t send it back. (Being poor stings twice - when you can’t buy things and then when you finally buy something cheap and shady and get scammed) But why should I complain, having two subwoofers is not a basic need 

And yes, my preamp has only one RCA out pair

@jtcf yes it was a typo, I went to the sub INPUT as shown on the pictures

@immatthewj I understand your description. It makes sense. What I did was duplicating the output (that I used to have for ONE sub). I should just treat the subs and the speakers, as left and right channels. 

I tried. Few bucks of fuses are not the end of the World. I will try your suggestion tomorrow.

@immatthewj 

you are very thorough and kind and helpful. I have exactly what is on the photo I included.

It's this model. 

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/product/home-speakers/subwoofers/psw-10/112479-new.html

it has RCA in, LFE inputs too. (And they sound great to my ear)

thanks @akgwhiz!

@immatthewj I am sufficiently confused as I try to visualize it with my limited options but at least I am positive you know how it works on your end. My setup - if my Outlaw had worked I think it would be

                                                         sub (RCA)
                                                        /
source -> preamp - bass manager
                                                        \
                                                          amplifier
                                                                         \
                                                                          bookshelf speakers

@mitch2 yes I did mention the splitter. How many splitters would I need for two subs?

@mashif

 I don't have preamp outs as I wrote many times

@audio_guy_uofw

yes it helps thank you. I have about 5 millimeters between the speaker binders and my speaker wires are thick. I could look for thinner speaker wires. 

I sold my beloved Marantz amp for this reason, impossible speaker binders, swapping speakers was an afternoon long activity. 

I am giving it one last try, hopefully it will leave the fuse alone.

thanks @mitch2!

@mitch2 ok so in dummy terms, red to red, white to white from the preamp?

A single line to each sub?

@deep_333

beautiful! thank you! smooth and buttery :) I owe you a beer.

And you can actually write with a pen nicely, I give up after three words, it just looks like I had a stroke.  

@mashif my bad - I do have an out from my preamp. I call preamp out from integrated amps - but you are right. So yes, that’s a good suggestion

@immatthewj thanks for the clarification. It wasn't your fault, I am easily confused. Your explanations are always very thorough.

I am looking up Y splitters now on Amazon.

@akgwhiz that’s interesting? It would be much easier for because the speakers’ bindings are modern - easy to access.

thanks @mashif - that's a good price. (And then I clicked on the 77K speaker cable)

@immatthewj I have the same feeling about Y splitters, not very audiophile-ish. But - also cheaper than a box.

I have not tried "serializing" subs and speakers. I want the signal to go from my amp directly to the speakers to somehow justify my semi-decent Morrow Audio speaker cables. (In the same time, at my level, speaker cables don't matter)

@mitch2 I was just splitting hairs. My system is very low-fi so I was just making a side note, I have no objections. 

@immatthewj

The short answer is I don’t know. I follow your train of thought and I believe in the shortest path and signal purity too. Electricity is a mystery to me though so I just believe what I read.

I think I have a compromised system (a nice way of saying "crappy") and using your analogy, it’s a glass with dirt on it, an extra layer of dirt won’t make a huge difference.

These passive components are essentially cables/cable connectors. The signal will degrade for sure, but maybe not much. In my system, the amp and the speakers make 90% of the difference (assuming my records are clean). I can hear the difference in the turntable but preamps, amps and speakers are 30% each. Cables, interconnects, electricity, vibration control, barely noticeable.

Having said that, everything counts, still:

inclined not to put in that switching box

I agree with that and you significantly reduced my desire for it, thank you!

Long story short, I enjoy and learn a lot from your comments. And despite my limitations, I love listening to my rig, it sounds awesome. It’s all relative....

@immatthewj

I also thought of this. I know it’s lame but fairly cheap and maybe by Christmas I can budget for it; it could be nice visuals and a speaker "multiplier". If it could handle it.
Douk Audio VU3 Dual Analog VU Meter, 2-Way Amplifier/Speaker Switch

thank you @carlsbad2, I am a big fan of Erik but I had a lot of good advice and options so far including yours. Once my coffee kicks in, I will try and compare them. Wiring-wise yours is the least stressful.

@immatthewj

I think your ear can train your brain, and your brain can work with your ears to look for more details. But it truly only matters with discerning systems, "anyone" can hear the difference between a bluetooth pill and and car radio. We are in this hobby because we look for the perfect sound. So you can probably hear a lot more than you think :)

I remember your example from Colombo.

I also like Andrew Jones’s explanation that everything is determined to be flawed from the source to the speaker and what engineers do is fixing errors along the way. (Paraphrasing)

@sgordoxyz thank you, it is balanced

Update:

I implemented the @carlsbad2 method and it works nicely

@immatthewj I need to find the right gain but they sound good. A bit shaky/buzzy on their flimsy legs so I should find a better platform. 

I listened to a pair of $60 Celestion F3s for 6 weeks and I just switched back to my Evoke 20s, they sound extremely bright, suddenly.  

I like the Celestions overall better but I am going to give them a week. 

What I like about the subwoofers is that they very subtle. (Unlike others I tried they wanted to crack the ceiling.) I don't need a lot of bass, just that little extra the bookshelf speakers can't fill.

thanks @carlsbad2! I didn't know this. Also noting the parallel - serial difference, I am a slow learner but I don't forget :)

@mitch2

 sub’s crossover as a high-pass filter

Are you saying the in and out connections on my subs have a crossover in between them? What I am curious if it's a filter actually, filtering anything out that maybe shouldn't be

@immathewj

OK. that would make sense. I will check out the manual for the PSW10 if indeed it matches the crossover. (I also might just open up the beast and see if there is a crossover). It does sound "thinner" maybe because I am keeping the low frequency from the speakers and I should dial it down. And overall, the "sound chaos" I sometimes had when I set the frequency on the sub too high is gone. Incredible how simple minded I can be and clueless about such simple things. Until I am not!

Thanks for figuring out my limitations and educating me.

One benefit would be, if the frequencies were split, for the bookshelf speakers to have to produce the sound in a smaller range - which then makes the sub placement even more important.

@immathewj @mswale @thecarpathian

I apologize if I confused or frustrated anyone. I know it's a simple issue for people who know what they are doing. I clearly don't.

In the process, I learned a few things though. The silver lining is that if I had a sub out or pre out on my component, I wouldn't have gone down in these rabbit holes and would not have learned anything. 

I also learned many ways to degrade a signal  

@immathewj

I think this is a @thecarpathian suggestion:

 I don't think there is such a smart crossover inside this cheap sub that would split the signal. I think the full signal goes out, but that's just my assumption. I will post a question on the polk forum, it's always very active. 

One thing I have read was about the wiring was strong advice about parallel wiring. The Y splitters should arrive tonight, will be interesting how it sounds.

At this point I am embarrassed about a number of remaining questions, so I will just keep them to myself and play with it to try to confirm my assumptions...

@immathewj one quick test: I unplugged the subs from wall, sub stayed dead, speakers still worked. Does it mean there is no crossover? Just wires? Active crossover requires electricity I assume....

@immathewj yes, that's a cool thread. The last two comments got me confused though (what doesn't) 

I am going to hook up my Y connectors in an hour and I hope I will like it :)

@immathewj I plugged in the splitters and rewired the speakers.

The speakers definitely "came forward". The subs seem to have a weaker signal - maybe because it's low level, but I can boost the gain for sure. I will listen now for a couple hours to my usual test CDs and albums

@immathewj 

I will probably go back to high level connections. So far I have mixed feelings about the splitter. I will give it another day of listening and then switch and compare. 

Overall, it also gives me perspective that these may not be the best speakers for me and I should go back an integrated amp, start with the latter first. I know a 45 year old amp (Hafler DH-200) will become more pain than fun eventually. I am working around limitations and it feels like I am always coming up short. 

Part of it is that I expect more and more and I feel I accomplish less - a purely emotional aspect.

Thanks for all your help, it's fun journey though :) I think the more complex the sound is the more critical we become.

@immathewj I ended up with this, it has more (too much) bass for sure but I will play with it, check the phases as advised above and figure out the right settings. It did push me to dislike my amp as it has connection issues, I almost have to hit it with a hammer when I turn it on.  

@immathewj

that's exactly what I did, what you described. My diagram is fuzzy, sorry. On to finding a new power amp. 

Bob Dylan sounds great so far, M. Ward not so much. Van is next...

@immathewj yes you are right. An integrated would do it. If ebay didn't charge an arm and a leg, I would sell my power amp today. 

@mswale my subs' dial start at 80Hz so I can't go below that. I agree with you that less is more, I need just subtle bass to extend the image. First it felt like the drummers went mad :)

 @immathewj

what are the specs on your mains?  

sorry I am not sure what it means, this the subwoofer

frequency response: 40-160 Hz (-3dB) continuously variable 80-160 Hz crossover

@yogiboy

Nobody buys what I have on any site other than on ebay. I know, my gear has been posted for close to nothing for 8 months. On ebay I get an offer in 2 days.

Because the stuff is heavy, and ebay charges on the shipping too, I get 60 cents on the dollar. In this case, I would make around $80 if I am lucky.

@immatthewj

Frequency response ( 3dB): 40Hz 23kHz

@immathewj there is overlap but i don’t think it’s down to 40Hz, the mains have 5” woofers, their lows are flimsy

@mswale

I guess you meant "confusing". Yes, I am often confused and I am very good at confusing others.

I had read for years here how a sub makes a difference before I looked into buying a sub. And then I read that one sub is almost meaningless, you need at least two.

My bass isn’t muddy but "reverby" at times.

I don’t mind adding a low pass filter and reconnecting my subs. You linked an 80Hz filter - would it be OK to add a low pass filter for a higher frequency to let my subs go higher, like 100Hz?

I will measure the frequencies of the mains today if I find a decent app.

@mswale it is a compromise (mainly for the simple reason I had to swear to my wife many times I am done spending money on audio), and 2 steps back 2(3) steps forward process. 

This has me thinking, does your amp, have a speaker A/B switch? 

No, but one of my ideas was to get a speaker switch. I am interested in this low cost low pass solution, as it should fix the overlap.

@mswale

to clarify, the link what you sent is a low pass filter. What I need for my mains is a high pass filter?

high pass