I'm thinking about changing the setup of my rig so the equipment rack is off to the side and nothing is between the speakers. However, that's going to entail a much longer set of speaker cables. Is there anything about speaker cable length I should be aware of? And and am I right in assuming that I need to keep both pairs of cables equal length?
An update: The line magnetic is back from being serviced, and I installed NOS 12AX7s and new 6V6 tubes. Equipment has been moved off to the side, replaced by some musical instruments and a more sound baffling absorbing piece of artwork.
As for the sound, I really can't tell any differences. Maybe a bit less bass with the new Canare cables? Don't know offhand. but the sound is just as amazing as it was before. You can see the results on my virtual system page
You picked good cable with the 4S11 but there is a lot more to it than gauge. At higher frequencies inductance will dominate over resistance. The 4s11 is good in this respect. Worst case use 2 runs to half impedance. People go gaga over damping factor but cable runs are normally a very small fraction of voice coil resistance and other impedances in the cross over. Inductance at high frequeny of the cable can be impactful speaker dependent.
Logic would dictate that if both the left and the right cables are the same in length, regardless of length, and all of the components provide equal balance in volume and tonality, then all things would be the same/equal.
Using one 5' speaker cable and one 15' speaker cable, no matter what, creates a set of different conditions. Now, you may not hear it, but it cannot logically be "balanced".
Here is what I just personally did. Your mileage may vary.
I had my 2 power amps on the side. Therefore, my cable runs were about 10 feet for the front speakers and about 18 feet for the second set.
I decided to place my power amps in the center on the floor instead. This allowed me to shorten my cables in the front to 5 feet and the sides down to about 13 feet.
I am listening right as I write this. I can hear much more detail in material I am quite familiar with.
Shorter is better. The shortest is best.
I was doing a guitar session once at the Record Plant with a bigtime producer. (name dropping not necessary). This was probably 40 years ago. I brought my whole rig in including my full pedal board of effects. Each effect had a very short cable in between.
The producer asked me, "what the F* is that?" I said it was my rig.
He said, "Get rid of it". I said, What??? That's my sound, that's my tone".
He said, " No it isn't. The tone is in your fingers and not in all that crap on the floor". He told me that he wanted me to stand right next to my Marshall, and use the shortest possible cord possible. I did this. And guess what?TONE CITY. Les Paul. 6 foot quality guitar cable. Marshall.
Since then, I have never used any effects. None. The tone was indeed in my fingers. I only use transmitters now live, and if I am in the studio,...
Yep! Les Paul. Quality 6 foot cable. Marshall. Battaging.
Quality of cable is just as important as length of cable. (to me)
With low output impedance ss amps and the typical heavy gauge speaker cables used today, the length is less critical than years ago when high output tube amps and thin gauge zip cord were used exclusively in yesteryear. Reasonable differing distances with most speaker cable won't affect time very much, but depending on the cables used might load the amps channels differently. Perhaps the best reason to buy identical lengths of speaker cable is to facilitate resale value. FWIW, I always use identical lengths.
@simao I believe you are approaching this the right way. You purchased a quality speaker cable (inexpensive as well) and have positioned yourself to try both system arrangements. I predict you will like the soundstage benefit the rack by your side arrangement will provide.
It’s much better to have the speaker cables the same length and as short as possible. I have 6 meter balanced interconnects driving pairs of monoblock Linn Solos which sit just beside my B&W 800 D3s abd the difference to the previous “traditional” set-up is unbelievable.
@bpoletti dude, I got so many problems that monoblocks would be the least of my therapy. Besides, to find a set of monoblocks in the preamp that would give me what my line magnetic gives me for even a comparable price is ridiculous. I would much rather spend that money on music
The point the OP made about not using monoblocks is not a failure of those who are suggesting minimum-length speaker cables. It is a shortcoming in his system. We can't be expected to fix his problems.
I believe you but I have a 15 foot and 18 foot 4s11 cable in my office system with a Mac MA6600 integrated driving either GE Triton One speakers or JBL L100 Classic speakers. Running a mono signal through them told me there is no difference. Perhaps if the cable was like 50 feet, perhaps I would hear a difference then.
I will say those JBL speakers are breaking in nicely with them playing for 6 weeks. I believe there are about 300 hours on them now and 150 hours on the longer Canare cable.
I can't agree with the "length makes no difference" crowd.
I'll give you that using one 6-ft. cable and one 12-ft. cable wouldn't be problematic.
But what if the cable length is 1,000 ft.? Extreme example, but to maintain it still doesn't matter would be be ridiculous. Obviously speaker cable length makes a difference. The question is how much?
If my system layout allowed it, I would use equal speaker cable lengths (which I do). We can't pretend to be able to recognize minor differences, but why not avoid them if we can?
let the cables burn in for a few hundred hours (400 is what I have found) before you make a decision. They sound great from day 1 but over time will get even better. I have thundering bass, smooth mids and delicate highs after full break in.
I originally had a 15 foot pair I bought from RAM Labs last year but they no longer offer locking banana plugs. So, I went with Blue Jeans Cable for a single 18 foot Canare cable with locking bananas. No offense to Blue Jeans but the same cable from RAM was finished so much nicer. They used colored heat shrink on the pigtails that go to the locking banana plugs and the plugs themself are much more robust. The Blue Jeans left the pigtails exposed and the plug was not as robust.
stereo54,475 posts01-30-2021 9:42amSome of you are delusional.
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And some people use ZIP cord and call it good. That is usually the reason why I can't tell the difference, unless the conductor is to small with zip cord. I can't tell the difference in 1 meter or 10 meters of zip cord.
I haven't used it in 30 years..
BUT if I use some serious cables.. Helix or a really good construct, I know I'm not delusional... 1 meter vs 3 or 4 meters, you'd need a hearing check if you couldn't hear the difference.. BUT then again you got to try it.. I was blown away by some of the helix constructions.. Zip cord vs Helix it's like having ear muffs on.. REALLY..
Great, well designed cables, there is a HUGE difference in SQ vs length.. some of the reasons they sound so good to begin with.. LOW R great constructs, excellent termination, and SHORT. 4 of about a dozen thing you need to think about, BEFORE calling run of the mill cable good enough..
For some maybe.. for me.. NO.. It's too easy to make a GREAT cable...
Anyhow, I've already ordered a 20-ft run and a 10-ft run of canare 4SII. This will take the place of my 8-ft length matching pair of acoustic Zen hologram. So we'll see what happens in a few days. Or whenever I get around to actually moving things. Which will mean taking apart my turntable and then setting it back up again which is something I really don't want to deal with at the moment. not because I can't do it, but simply because it's time consuming.
@stereo5 that's what I'm inclined to believe. I mean, we're talking speed of light here, and unless you're running really thin 18 or 20 gauge wire, our ears just aren't good enough to pick up any difference. Especially with signal strength as low as what's conveyed through speaker wire.
Some of you are delusional. There is no rule on speaker cable length. Unless you were gifted with God’s ears, you can’t hear a difference from a 4 foot pair of cables and a 20 foot pair. If you think or believe you can, you can’t. The electrons will arrive at the same time regardless the length as long as the wire gauge supports longer runs. Do you think the recording studios use short cables? Think again.
Thus is controversial topic and I have heard all sorts of statements. What seems to be consistent at its base (I'm going to ignore brand names and technology to keep this less controversial) is that length of cable and Guage of cable matter. I dont have any hard numbers to contribute but for longer distances let's say 25ft the wire Guage should be higher ie 12AWG. I dont have a sense of low distance and what Guage you can get away with. Theoretically if its a 3ft run the Guage shouldn't matter that much. In audiophile land however I'm sure everything matters and so opinions will be hot on this.
I keep it really simple and go with monoprice 12awg. I buy terminal plugs and make my own lengths. This might cost you $70-80 or less to make a 100ft run if you chose. Once you get into branding and technologies however the arguments explode. I do know people with monos will argue for shortest length possible as one of the advantages is to be able to place your monoblock right next to the speaker. Ultimately if someone is building a system it seems most prudent to spend the money on the best components and treat wire as the final thought to save up on if one so chose. Otherwise 12 awg from any brand with your own terminal plugs is great.
I have exactly the setup that you are planning on. Keep the Left & Right the same length, it matters. That's just physics. Now people can argue they can't hear the difference but they are talking about their own hearing and not the laws of physics. Of course with that setup you are going to have on the one side a lot more cable to hide (or manage) than the other side. For this reason alone opt for quality solid core cables that are easier to handle. Your ears will thank you as well with superior sound. Check out DNM's range and pick something you can afford. when looking at their products don't think that the cable's are specific for their amplifiers etc. That certainly true that they are designed in conjunction with everything else but they are tremendous in my setup. Good luck with this.
I've read a bunch about speaker cable length and have ensured that my lengths are identical. I've wondered whether they should be short or long compared to IC's.
However, in the video I posted above, Gene from Audioholics gives an argument as to why speaker cable length does not and cannot matter to how they sound.
Most here are offering advice as if this argument doesn't exist.
So, please inform me -- and the OP: is Gene just wrong? What is the counterargument to his?
I'm really curious to know, because if he's right, it allows us to focus on other issues rather than remain debating this cluster of issues. If he's wrong, then it seriously compromises his integrity as an expert.
Well, I’m for short everything, but when moving gear off-center is absolutely necessary, I go against the grain - employing long speaker cables and short interconnects.
Given a choice between the "evils" of more resistance as a result of long speaker cables vs. the increased capacitance of long interconnects, I’ll keep the capacitance down every day of the week. Of course, one could argue in favor of long ICs if you’re running balanced.
I love this forum! I mean, where else can I ask a simple question more or less out of curiosity and generate ankle biting, learned responses, snarkiness, passionate disagreement, and occasional camaraderie? Sweet.
Yea about that.. If the cable that's hooked to only one of two main speakers has a so so cable, or for that matter both main speaker monitors. Then throw three parts of cable building 101 out the window.. You kind of get what you get.. And deserve it..
If I was to use zip cord, vs 12tg 24 conductor a folding weave, I bet the different length will make all the difference in the world. Zip cord length is tough to tell, between 1 meter and 10 meters. BUT really complex weaves and length are like tuning forks.. Every foot adds, I can't hear that good, but 1 meter vs 3 meters I can.. Zip cord I can't tell the difference only copper vs alu/copper, I can..
The deal is, I don't use anything but SOOW or JSOOW 99.999 copper unless it's a main monitor cable.. BASS is BASS it likes heavy copper. I get pretty fancy with the main monitor cable though, a helix weave with some goodies and a MY box...Works perfect for me...
So when folks chime in and say "it doesn't matter that much" I wholeheartedly disagree. Cabling accounted for a good 10% in all ranges when I really took the time to listen. ADD another 5% for top notch cabling inside the speaker...Add 5% MORE for GREAT cabling inside the power amp..
Again I would run longer RCAs or hopefully XLRs. You can get either dead quiet. and then shorten the speaker IC..from the power amp..
@millercarbon truthfully i’m considering making this move, as i mentioned before, out of aesthetic reasons, not because i’m panicking about sonics diminished by equipment between speakers. my question was about speaker cable length which, i believe, has been answered from many sources, including you. heaven forbid someone gets under your thin skin with casual ridicule.
i'm always sus about people who've claim to have figured it out. no matter how ourt of touch they may be with interior decor
Relax. I still haven’t figured out grammar either.
What I have figured out though, wire length doesn’t matter but wire quality does. You will get only the tiniest improvement moving equipment off to the side. This is not something I claim to have figured out. This is something I actually tried and heard the difference. It is negligible. The difference in sound quality though, for whatever your budget is, if you have $500 it will buy you hugely better speaker cables at 8 ft than 20 ft. No contest. You will crap at what you lost. For all your work moving all that stuff around.
But you go ahead, ridicule me for knowing what I am talking about. Who knows, maybe next time even spell a word or two correctly.
@simao FWIW I have tried the same brand of speaker cables in three different but equal lengths with the same amplifiers and same speakers . (I own monoblock amps.) It's an interesting experiment.
I tried speaker cable lengths of 3.5M, 1.5M and .5M. In my system the length that sounded the best was 1.5M. When testing the 3.5M, I had a 2M IC XLR between the amps and the preamp. For the 1.5M and .5M, I had a 15ft IC XLR between the amps and preamp. Although the .5M had plenty of jump, it made the high frequencies sizzle a touch and vocals sounded too forward. The 3.5M sounded "slow." The 1.5M made the sizzle disappear, located the vocals realistically in the sound stage and the music pace seemed faster than the 3.5M.YMMV
I don't mean to be acrid here, but those of you is spousing really short speaker cable lengths seem to be out of touch with a lot of systems reality.
Welcome then to the Twilight Zone. None of this actually exists. Nor do I. Nor, interestingly enough, do you. None of this is reality. Couldn't be. No real person could ever figure out how to do this. Could they? https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
There are a lot of other audio set-up aspects far more relevant than fretting over unequal speaker wire lengths. I saved considerable money on my 12ft/20 ft pair.
OP you can setup a simple experiment as I did years ago to determine the effect of speaker wires. Get a simple analog toggle switch and two sets of wire to compare. Have someone else switch back and forth without you knowing which cable is being used. A blind A/B test with instantaneous change from one to the other. It doesn't get any better than that. Everything else is just hearsay. I did this hundreds of times on Apogee Diva's and Klipschorn's along with other curious golden ears. We all came to the same conclusion.
simao; With the lengths you mentioned, audiophool BS aside, two different lengths will make no difference that any human ear can discern. The only real consideration is the gauge you use as it has more of an effect on the sound than length does. From my personal experience, 10 gauge tends to favor bass at the expense of highs, and 14-16 tends to be brighter. I have always had the best results using 12 to 14 gauge wire. If you are into making your own cables, check out http://www.knukonceptz.com/. They sell quality wire and connection accessories at realistic prices.
12g zip cord works fine and different lengths do not matter. These guys can spend a ton of your money for little to no, mostly no, gain. I run bigger wire than really needed but there are times I am working on 200 to 600 seat theater speakers and if the customer wants them cranked up I do so. Yes these are high fidelity speakers and poor components would be noticeable.
@oldhvymech. Interesting. I thought that signal amplitude is much lower across speaker wires than across interconnects. and thus you would get less of an LRC loss. But hey, as you say, maybe I've been wrong all this time. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
@bkeske interestingly, everything i’ve heard says the complete opposite - that the IC’s should be kept as short as possible while speaker cables - which carry a very weak signal, can be much longer.
NO OP the speaker cable need to be short, not the line level, no one here is giving you bad advise.. The heavy load is the Speaker cable, and the power cord for the power amp, not the line level amp feed.. You literally got your wires crossed. But 4 foot cable off a stereo isn't gonna happen either.. 2 or 3 meter will work though.. I use 2, 3 and 4 meter cables. not in the same room.. Great cables though, are gonna be the same length.. This is not a surround system...
Do what you will, but running longer speaker IC will degrade speaker performance. The question is, will you hear it? I can tell the difference in a 1 meter and a 3 meter of the same construct.. I have used .5 meters and gone to 1 meter and gotten better results on SS amps.. Same construct. There is TOO short.. in some cases.
Zip cord who cares double the run for each one (20 x 2) and (8 x 2) used #12 save your money..
Yea, to start, I would go with the shortest/longest best speaker wires you can, and start there. You definitely don’t want multiple long length IC’s from your front end stuff.
@bkeske. Nah, I wasn't accusing you directly of not being grounded. You add a valuable voice that I'm taking into consideration. It's just that 4' or less speaker cables are not going to happen.
I can assure you, my feet are firmly planted in reality. I simply provided another alternative should you have equipment that would make it easy for you, and perhaps provide an opportunity of spending a bit more for better cables themselves. You didn’t specify your equipment, so....
It worked for me, and was able to spend a bit more on speaker cables vs my previous setup of 20’+ (ran under the floor and through the basement to make things ‘tidy’).
One thing is for sure, removing your equipment from between the speakers will probably be an improvement regardless. So, get longer speaker cables an enjoy the music.
I don't mean to be acrid here, but those of you is spousing really short speaker cable lengths seem to be out of touch with a lot of systems reality. I know if you have monoblocks and it isn't a problem, but I don't and I don't think many other audiophiles do. plus, setting up your speakers so you are in that .83 ratio of the triangle means at a forefoot cable is virtually impossible.
The best speaker cable performs at a maximum distance of zero. Any longer than zero colors the signal.
That said, you can usually get away with a couple of feet, no more than 4 feet, if the cables are of sufficiently heavy gauge wire. Any cable less than 14 gauge should be avoided at any length greater than zero.
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