I have a pair of 2 way stand mounts (speaker art super clefs) with custom cabinets by Lee Taylor that I may be listing. Excellent dynamics with better bass than some floor standers I’ve owned. Been using them in a 12x13 room with great results. You can audition them if you wish
Speaker advice for listening to Blues music
Hi, new to the forum, and hoping I can get some help finding the right speakers... I'm a Blues guitar player and have a dedicated music room for my guitars/amps. I usually spend time playing my guitars and recently decided to setup a decent system for listening to my Blues music. I first started with a Marantz integrated (PM8005) and some Kef R300, source is a Marantz ND8006 and I mostly play FLAC files from a NAS, but also started streaming from Spotify and now trying Tidal. This setup was great at first, very revealing, but found the R300 were not the right speakers for the kind of music I listen to, but they were great for some Jazz and did well with good recordings, which most of my Blues recordings weren't, specially live albums. I also found them to be a little boomy in that small room (12' X 12'), so I moved them to the living room instead and added a matching center, they're perfect there.
Next came the LS50, read so much about them I had to get a pair to try. Wow! I still can't believe what these small speakers can do, the details I hear, soundstage, imaging, it's all there. But, just like the R300, since they're so revealing they're horrible with my favorite Blues recordings. It's great to listen to excellent recordings and enjoy the music these speakers are making but I want to enjoy MY music, the Blues greats I've been listening to for over 30 years. If it sounds great in the car then I should be able to find the right gear to duplicate at home, right? On some good Blues recordings it sounds excellent, but most of my favorites aren't good recordings.
Since I only play my guitars through old Fender amps I figured I should replace the Marantz integrated with a tube amp, so next came the PrimaLuna integrated. I wanted to get a "warmer" sound and hope it'll fix the issues I was having with most crappy recordings... I want to hear BB's beautiful guitar tone and crank it up, without hurting my ears. Both Kefs were too fatiguing to listen to. And on most live recordings guitars sound way too thin and bright, not what I'm used to hearing. A good example is Albert King's Wednesday Night in San Francisco, that Flying V can be painful to listen to after a couple of minutes! Not so in the car or even just using headphones and my laptop. I understand that it's because the system is more revealing, but is it possible to have both, revealing and musical so that one can enjoy the music they love? The PrimaLuna did help and it's staying, I like what I'm hearing so far, and I get to play with tubes, something I enjoy doing already :)
Right now I'm breaking in some Wharfedale Denton 80th, I wanted to try something with a soft dome tweeter, something less fatiguing than the LS50. I'm at 70+ hours so far and they're sounding much better, not as fatiguing, but something is missing... I prefer the LS50's soundstage and details, but they're both not that great for electric guitar. The Dentons are more forgiving but I don't find them musical and they don't disappear like the LS50s do.
So what are my choices? Do I stick with bookshelf, try some floor standing? What about single driver speakers (Omega, Zu...)? Are those the answer to what I'm looking for? I need something more forgiving, musical, efficient so I can crank it up when I feel like playing along some times... I want the guitar to sound full and not thin and bright. It's a small room and not a lot of space due to my guitar gear. My budget is also limited, would like to keep it under $2k, I already have a hobby and don't want this to get out of control :)
Forgot to mention, I also have a Rel sub, so not too worried about the low end. Sorry for the long post and thanks for any help!
Next came the LS50, read so much about them I had to get a pair to try. Wow! I still can't believe what these small speakers can do, the details I hear, soundstage, imaging, it's all there. But, just like the R300, since they're so revealing they're horrible with my favorite Blues recordings. It's great to listen to excellent recordings and enjoy the music these speakers are making but I want to enjoy MY music, the Blues greats I've been listening to for over 30 years. If it sounds great in the car then I should be able to find the right gear to duplicate at home, right? On some good Blues recordings it sounds excellent, but most of my favorites aren't good recordings.
Since I only play my guitars through old Fender amps I figured I should replace the Marantz integrated with a tube amp, so next came the PrimaLuna integrated. I wanted to get a "warmer" sound and hope it'll fix the issues I was having with most crappy recordings... I want to hear BB's beautiful guitar tone and crank it up, without hurting my ears. Both Kefs were too fatiguing to listen to. And on most live recordings guitars sound way too thin and bright, not what I'm used to hearing. A good example is Albert King's Wednesday Night in San Francisco, that Flying V can be painful to listen to after a couple of minutes! Not so in the car or even just using headphones and my laptop. I understand that it's because the system is more revealing, but is it possible to have both, revealing and musical so that one can enjoy the music they love? The PrimaLuna did help and it's staying, I like what I'm hearing so far, and I get to play with tubes, something I enjoy doing already :)
Right now I'm breaking in some Wharfedale Denton 80th, I wanted to try something with a soft dome tweeter, something less fatiguing than the LS50. I'm at 70+ hours so far and they're sounding much better, not as fatiguing, but something is missing... I prefer the LS50's soundstage and details, but they're both not that great for electric guitar. The Dentons are more forgiving but I don't find them musical and they don't disappear like the LS50s do.
So what are my choices? Do I stick with bookshelf, try some floor standing? What about single driver speakers (Omega, Zu...)? Are those the answer to what I'm looking for? I need something more forgiving, musical, efficient so I can crank it up when I feel like playing along some times... I want the guitar to sound full and not thin and bright. It's a small room and not a lot of space due to my guitar gear. My budget is also limited, would like to keep it under $2k, I already have a hobby and don't want this to get out of control :)
Forgot to mention, I also have a Rel sub, so not too worried about the low end. Sorry for the long post and thanks for any help!
131 responses Add your response
@soma70 you mentioned in a previous post getting a power conditioner and giving the amp and source clean power and isolate the two. Can you explain to a newbie like me? I currently have both plugged into a Tripp Lite Isobar, no conditioning at all, using the stock power cables. I believe I have clean power at home, but do run into noise issues sometimes with my guitar amps and sometimes see 125V at the wall, so for some vintage guitar amps I use a BrownBox to bring the voltage down and drop the plate voltage on the tubes. Not sure if that could also cause issues with my PrimaLuna integrated... So do I get a conditioner just for the source? Or for both? |
If you use a passive conditioner your amp can go into it with good results most of the time. If not passive, power conditioner kill the sound with amp going into them, it limits current. Most of time it's best for amp to go in wall. A $10 to $25 pass seymore or hubbell wall outlet from Home Depot can help. |
I wouldn't judge anything till 4 or 500. I would run speakers on a solid state receiver 24/7, run amp while you can keep an eye on it, prima may need other speakers hooked up if you breaking in speakers in another room. Check with prima luna. 2 to 300 you may start to hear improvement it's just a waiting game. Your gear is not broken in. |
Blues is a fairly diverse genre ranging from more "classic" style like John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters, etc., etc., to folks like Beth Hart, Joe Bonamassa, etc.,etc. It appears that the OP’s issues are mostly with the latter style. I’m not a musician, far from it, but do listen a lot to the genre in its broad sense and in my experience the latter rock/blues style needs to be played relatively loud to sort of simulate the venue and can get grainy during peaks even with good recordings. I have found the quality of the amplifier plays a critical role in smoothing out those rough edges, even when the rest of the system is the same. I thought my speakers (Vandersteen 2Ci) were the bottleneck until I borrowed a friend’s Ayre amp - don’t recall the model but it was 150 wpc, and Joe Bonamassa Live at the Greek Theatre sounded smooth even at high listening volume. The so-called grain was (almost) absent. Not sure if this is helpful or not but you may want to borrow a good quality SS amp in your system and see if that helps. |
Blues is a fairly diverse genre ranging from more "classic" style like John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters, etc., etc., to folks like Beth Hart, Joe Bonamassa, etc.,etc. It appears that the OP’s issues are mostly with the latter style.It is mostly with electric blues guitar and live recordings... for example, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer (all acoustic), great recording and I have a hi-res album, sounds incredible, but then Muddy "Mississippi" Waters – Live doesn't sound that great through my system. |
On a great system, crappy recordings should sound like crap. If they sound good, it’s not a great (accurate) system. To get a real handle on the nuances of your system (good and bad), use some recordings that you feel are excellent and use them to evaluate any equipment changes. So often I notice that when a compressed, hyped recording sounds awful, the advice is to tweak it with a few thousand dollars in new cables, or power conditioners, or new speakers, or whatever. Which, because better stuff is probably even more revealing, will make the bad recordings sound even worse. Build a system where you become confident that, when a bad recording sounds bad, it’s the source...not the equipment. |
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Build a system where you become confident that, when a bad recording sounds bad, it’s the source...not the equipment.I already know that some of the recordings are not the greatest, the goal here is to find a solution to still be able to enjoy these recordings, without them sounding so horrible on a revealing system. If that means building a system that's not as revealing and more musical then that's what I'll end up doing. I'm not an audiophile and not looking to hear every single detail, I just want to enjoy the music, that's all. Unfortunately for me some of these great live blues albums are not the greatest recordings. Does that mean I'll stop listening to them? Hell no :) |
Oh yes....saw Albert King at an armory BYOB show in Kansas City in the early 1980s..unreal experience, still a top 10 concert for me.Seeing Albert live is one of the greatest experience I had! Another one of the Blues greats I got to see, a number of times, is Albert Collins, he blew me away with that monster tone of his!!! |
I don think your hearing a revealing system. Your hearing speakers with 100 hours you may not like anyway once there cooked. An amp with 200 hours, stock tubes, thats the first thing I would rip out since you said your keeping amp. Transformers and caps need time. Your hearing crap break in noise on what you call a revealing system with your bad recordings on top and expect to i joy it. To me a revealing system is neutral with very very low noise floor so highs, details can be exposed just sitting there in front of you not treble pushed at you. I can play my system loud and be able to talk to friend next to me in my normal tone of voice. Your hearing noise. |
If you can find synergy between your source, amp, speakers you will enjoy any type of music on your system. If not it will never sound right. You can't just throw a great pick up in a great guitar body and expect it to sound great, ( buddy of mine love to mod his pick ups he about drove himself crazy) same with "revealing " 2 channel gear. |
If you can find synergy between your source, amp, speakers you will enjoy any type of music on your system. If not it will never sound right. You can't just throw a great pick up in a great guitar body and expect it to sound great, ( buddy of mine love to mod his pick ups he about drove himself crazy) same with "revealing " 2 channel gear.I know all about swapping pickups, caps, strings, tubes, speakers... that's where I waste most of my time :) that's why I want to keep the whole audio thing simple. I don't really have the time or patience to wait 500 hours to decide if I like something. In that case I'll never be able to audition something within 30 days and return it if I don't like it. I gave the Dentons 100 hours, and even though the highs are a little softer it just doesn't do it for me. I knew I kinda liked the LS50s within the first 50 hours. This evening I decided to hook the LS50s back into the Primaluna. While breaking in the Dentons I was also breaking in a new set of EL34, so they're both at around 100 hours now. I also swapped the two 12AU7s with some Mullards just before I got the Dentons. I can't believe how beautiful these LS50s sound! Once I got 'em dialed in the soundstage, depth, vocals, and details were so much better and the highs even got smoother. The live recordings are still a little harsh with the guitar sounding a little too bright and thin, but I can live with it for now, it's not as fatiguing. I just wish the electric guitar had more body to the tone with the LS50, and not as bright, but the clarity of an acoustic guitar is incredible! And there's this beautiful reverb going on in the room, which I really love since I always have reverb on my guitar amps. I will compare tubes over the weekend, to confirm if that's what's helping, and give the Dentons another listen before I decide if they're going back or not. |
@Cedarblues, If you decide on the Heresy3s.. I bought a pair from ebay recently the 'chipote' edition. No raiser / grill for $1100 pr. completely brand new. The seller has 2 pairs left. Unfortunely, I'm in the process of organizing/packing or you can come over to listen to them (i'm in downtown orlando). I definitely dont have golden ears, but I enjoy my quad57 & .7s for blues & jazz. best, ting |
I have owned many speakers over the years. Here is my general take: Horns: delicious, sweet sound with lots of dynamics. Huge and directional. Sound best when loud. Example Klipsch Heresys. Electrostatic: Detailed and resolving, very directional. Example Magnapan 1.7s. Floor standing dynamic: Versatile and balanced, sound quality varies but you generally get what you pay for. Example: PSB Imagine X2Ts Stand mount dynamic: Much like floor standers, but more versatile. Will likely need subwoofer(s). Example: Harbeth P3esr with REL sub. Properly outfitted with appropriate electronics and with the right placement in the right room, all of these speakers can sound great. If you have a small room, smaller stand mounts will probably be the best fit. Having a seperate sub (or 2) will allow you to find the best location to reduce unwanted resonances (I could write a book on this, but you wwill find plenty of good advice in these forums). I am a guitar player (both acoustic and electric), and I play and listen to a lot of blues. My current main hifi rig consists of Harbeth P3esr speakers, Sound Anchor stands, and a single REL t5i sub. Adequate solid state amplification, tube pre-amp, and varied sources. I was able to move things around in my 13' x 22' room to get supurb, balanced sound that suits me perfectly. I cannot recommend the Harbeths enough! |
Because of this thread I spun junior wells - hoodoo man blues, roosevelt sykes - hard drivin blues, and sonny terry & brownie mcghee - midnight special, and they sound fabulous with my omega 3xrs high output! I left his morning to take the kids to swim school and came back to find hoodoo man on side two, meaning my wife gave it a spin 😉 |
If you decide on the Heresy3s.. I bought a pair from ebay recently the 'chipote' edition. No raiser / grill for $1100 pr. completely brand new. The seller has 2 pairs left.Thanks for the tip and the offer! If you have a small room, smaller stand mounts will probably be the best fit. Having a seperate sub (or 2) will allow you to find the best location to reduce unwanted resonancesThat's the setup I have and want to stick with if possible. I can always make adjustments with the sub, but with a bigger speaker in the mix it might not work in that room, but I'm open to suggestions and willing to try something different if it gets me the results I'm looking for. Heresy or single driver speakers, not sure. I am a guitar player (both acoustic and electric), and I play and listen to a lot of blues. My current main hifi rig consists of Harbeth P3esr speakers, Sound Anchor stands, and a single REL t5i sub. Adequate solid state amplification, tube pre-amp, and varied sources. I was able to move things around in my 13' x 22' room to get supurb, balanced sound that suits me perfectly. I cannot recommend the Harbeths enough!You don't find the Harbeth too small sounding? I worry that with my gear it won't play loud enough when I need it to and will sound small for guitars... I want the guitar to have more body to it, the small speakers I've tried so far can't deliver, I think a bigger driver will help? |
Because of this thread I spun junior wells - hoodoo man blues, roosevelt sykes - hard drivin blues, and sonny terry & brownie mcghee - midnight special, and they sound fabulous with my omega 3xrs high output! I left his morning to take the kids to swim school and came back to find hoodoo man on side two, meaning my wife gave it a spin 😉LOL I definitely need the Omegas then! |
Maggies are not electrostatic designs. They are a planar; a panel speaker. Cedar, why not have 2 systems set up ( 2 amps, 2 pr speakers ) ? A second for your poorer recordings. You will go nuts trying to make poorer recordings sound good on a higher end, neutral system, as mentioned previously a few times. To each his / her own, who think the Klipsch K77 tweeter cannot sound smooth, articulate, and just plain excellent. And, as far as a " system " not sounding excellent on all genres of music ?.....well.....The best systems can knock it out of the park with everything played. A few folks also seem to think the Heresy IIIs have some weaknesses. They are correct. They can be bettered further. As far as a small room ( any room ), you need to get rid of any early reflections, or else you are wasting your time with all of it. Sorry Cedar, I might be done here. Too much ridiculousness ( for me ). Enjoy ! MrD. |
Yes, two separate systems is the solution, but unfortunately space is an issue with all my guitar gear in that room... there's been some great suggestions in this thread, so I'll keep working on it until I find the right setup, appreciate everyone's help! The Heresy and single driver speakers are on top of my list. I like the size of the Heresy and they look cool too! There's a used pair locally that I might check out. |
Read some reviews on LSA Statements monitors, they go to 39hz, 6ohm 87db, have a ribbon tweeter with auicaps. Maybe the tone your missing is the monitors your looking at don't go low enough, used there $800 to $1000, I enjoyed them with a 25 watt el84 tube amp. Usher 718 tiny dancer is another nice speaker, a little brighter than lsa but very nice. |
Cedar. I have a dedicated feed from my CU and thought my power was pretty clean as well until i found a conditioner that worked. Over bright/thin sound is the predominant character of noisy power. re the Tripp Lite Isobar, it’s quite common to start out with a power block surge protector and then find the sound is better without it. you should try plugging the power cables direct into the wall and just see if it changes anything but i would really encourage you to buy some after market power cables. you will need try some or all of the components with a conditioner to see what works. have fun experimenting! |
I'd suggest you try some vintage bookshelfs ... the KLH 4 or KLH 5 come to mind as having a very accurate midrange, but there are others. But before that .... your room dimensions are a square, not generally good for sound unless lots of openings. Perhaps try some unusual placements or add some sound modifying elements. |
mate, you will not go wrong with ZU. I have the Soul Superflys and they rock, pardon the pun. Blues is probably 75-80% of my listening choice.I also use Klipschorns and any of the Heritage line from Klipsch will be suitable too. Possibly mentioned, but didn’t want to troll through all of the replies but are you using a DAC?The Denafrips Ares is an awesome little DAC for blues. Very soulful with excellent bass and I would even go so far as to suggest that you try one with the speakers you already have. Enjoy the search. |
Cedar. I have a dedicated feed from my CU and thought my power was pretty clean as well until i found a conditioner that worked. Over bright/thin sound is the predominant character of noisy power. re the Tripp Lite Isobar, it’s quite common to start out with a power block surge protector and then find the sound is better without it. you should try plugging the power cables direct into the wall and just see if it changes anything but i would really encourage you to buy some after market power cables. you will need try some or all of the components with a conditioner to see what works. have fun experimenting!So is the conditioner for the source only? I keep reading that I need to plug the amp into the wall, then hear it needs clean power, which is it? I don't mind spending money on better cables, can you recommend an entry level cable for the PrimaLuna amp? |
i use the Sunyata Hydra conditioner on my power amp (as someone mentioned above, a passive conditioner does not restrict the power supply) and the streamer (which has a linear power supply - but i think that dumps noise back into the wall). The hydra made no difference to the DAC/pre but that is a fairly high end piece of kit and has a very good power supply already. you just have to try the conditioner on each component and see what works. recommending a non branded power cable company is tricky as i am in the UK and i made my own from DH Labs, but you should be able to find some 9-14 awg, shielded cables on ebay for about $30/40/50 each. |
This might just be then ticket for you cedar https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649523325-coherent-audio-gr8-single-driver-speakers-in-walnut/im... |
Ahem, those are mine. If you have any questions feel free to ask away. I play all sorts of music (except country-western and hip hop), with a strong preference for jazz, vocals and small ensemble classical. I am taken with these so much that I have ordered a pair of GRA12s. I would love to have the 15s but they are just too big for my living room. |
91 messages in, I may be late to the blues party - but let me suggest a pair of JBL 4300 series speakers with Mcintosh amp/preamp. For your room, restored vintage 4344 speakers would be great, but you could put your head into the music with a pair of 4350s in your room and they would be great. The room may need some treatment with big boxes like those. Dead room and it would be blues heaven. |
And don't worry about all the power cleaning, cable audiophile thing. There are times to get your head out of the toy box and listen. I can tell you this as my current system uses Sonus Faber Stradivari powered by Audia Flight Strumento No 4 (previously Audio Research Ref 210s). And I'd note the large speaker/smallish room combination, deadened, will get you to that car interior proximity. |
Wow! Those are gorgeous speakers! And the specs seem right for what I'm looking for, high efficiency and a single 8" driver. @br3098 will this solve all my problems? :) how would they do in a smaller 12X12 room? Based on the dimensions (I think you need to update them in your listing, 18" wide??), do they need bigger stands? They're kinda wide and tall... I have PrimaLuna integrated (35 wpc), will this be a good match in your opinion? Source is all digital, CD and FLAC. Thanks! |
cedarblues, I have paired these speakers with several of my amps including 2W 45 SET monoblocks, a 5W EL34 (wired in triode mode), a 12W EL84 integrated and a 25W mac MC225 7591 PP, All sounded great but, as you would guess, very different. I'm mostly a vinyl guy but I do run streaming digital as well and it sounds wonderful. There is no reason why these speakers will sound great with your Primaluna. Use 8 or 12 Ohm taps on your amp. |
@mrdecibel you're welcome to stop by and post here, appreciate your input! And yes I figured that's what br3098 meant. I wanted to also give an update... I managed to hear some Klipsch speakers yesterday, a local seller had the Heresy III listed and was kind enough to let me hear them. I was shocked at how BIG they sounded! And yes live Blues didn't sound as bad, but, I did not like the way they sounded, almost sounded like PA speakers to me. There was something missing, like specific frequency range (maybe low mids?) was not there, made it sound kinda hollow. He was driving the speakers with some nice vintage amps. He also had a pair of old La Scalas in the same room, so he hooked them up to the same gear and it was a much better experience! They sounded full, warm, detailed, just perfect! With the Heresy it sounded too crowded, no instrument separation, just too messy for me, almost like being in a bar listening to music coming from a PA speaker. The Heresy are probably not broken in yet, but I don't know if after they're broken in they will sound anything like the much bigger La Scala. In another room he also had a set of Chorus II, driven by some old tube monoblocks, they sounded perfect too! Just full and so musical, that's probably what I would choose, but the size... So, there you have it... I think I just need to find some full range speakers with bigger drivers, with softer highs, not too big, and I'll be set. |
Cedarblues, I also use a Thor PS10 power conditioner/surge protector with with its supplied proprietaty power board. Every component is plugged into that powerboard. Makes sense to me. It certainly made a positive audible difference. I'd never bothered with one until lightning took out the pole mounted transformer 2 doors down and fritzed my DAC. Now, I wouldn't be wthout one for the aforementioned audible improvement alone. |
I second open baffle. Right now I'm listening to Eva Cassidy Nightbird on Spatial M4 Triode Specials in my 12 X 12 office. I use a Martin Logan Grotto sub and the amp is an Ekco EV55SE integrated. The amp uses KT88 tubes for 55/28 WPC in Ultralinear/Triode. To me it sounds best in triode with low feedback. There is nothing harsh, no glare, and vocals are fantastic. |
