Maybe you need a Betsy - haven't heard them but from what I read they sing with tubes
http://www.caintuckaudio.com/In_Stock.html
http://www.caintuckaudio.com/In_Stock.html
Speaker advice for listening to Blues music
Hi, new to the forum, and hoping I can get some help finding the right speakers... I'm a Blues guitar player and have a dedicated music room for my guitars/amps. I usually spend time playing my guitars and recently decided to setup a decent system for listening to my Blues music. I first started with a Marantz integrated (PM8005) and some Kef R300, source is a Marantz ND8006 and I mostly play FLAC files from a NAS, but also started streaming from Spotify and now trying Tidal. This setup was great at first, very revealing, but found the R300 were not the right speakers for the kind of music I listen to, but they were great for some Jazz and did well with good recordings, which most of my Blues recordings weren't, specially live albums. I also found them to be a little boomy in that small room (12' X 12'), so I moved them to the living room instead and added a matching center, they're perfect there.
Next came the LS50, read so much about them I had to get a pair to try. Wow! I still can't believe what these small speakers can do, the details I hear, soundstage, imaging, it's all there. But, just like the R300, since they're so revealing they're horrible with my favorite Blues recordings. It's great to listen to excellent recordings and enjoy the music these speakers are making but I want to enjoy MY music, the Blues greats I've been listening to for over 30 years. If it sounds great in the car then I should be able to find the right gear to duplicate at home, right? On some good Blues recordings it sounds excellent, but most of my favorites aren't good recordings.
Since I only play my guitars through old Fender amps I figured I should replace the Marantz integrated with a tube amp, so next came the PrimaLuna integrated. I wanted to get a "warmer" sound and hope it'll fix the issues I was having with most crappy recordings... I want to hear BB's beautiful guitar tone and crank it up, without hurting my ears. Both Kefs were too fatiguing to listen to. And on most live recordings guitars sound way too thin and bright, not what I'm used to hearing. A good example is Albert King's Wednesday Night in San Francisco, that Flying V can be painful to listen to after a couple of minutes! Not so in the car or even just using headphones and my laptop. I understand that it's because the system is more revealing, but is it possible to have both, revealing and musical so that one can enjoy the music they love? The PrimaLuna did help and it's staying, I like what I'm hearing so far, and I get to play with tubes, something I enjoy doing already :)
Right now I'm breaking in some Wharfedale Denton 80th, I wanted to try something with a soft dome tweeter, something less fatiguing than the LS50. I'm at 70+ hours so far and they're sounding much better, not as fatiguing, but something is missing... I prefer the LS50's soundstage and details, but they're both not that great for electric guitar. The Dentons are more forgiving but I don't find them musical and they don't disappear like the LS50s do.
So what are my choices? Do I stick with bookshelf, try some floor standing? What about single driver speakers (Omega, Zu...)? Are those the answer to what I'm looking for? I need something more forgiving, musical, efficient so I can crank it up when I feel like playing along some times... I want the guitar to sound full and not thin and bright. It's a small room and not a lot of space due to my guitar gear. My budget is also limited, would like to keep it under $2k, I already have a hobby and don't want this to get out of control :)
Forgot to mention, I also have a Rel sub, so not too worried about the low end. Sorry for the long post and thanks for any help!
Next came the LS50, read so much about them I had to get a pair to try. Wow! I still can't believe what these small speakers can do, the details I hear, soundstage, imaging, it's all there. But, just like the R300, since they're so revealing they're horrible with my favorite Blues recordings. It's great to listen to excellent recordings and enjoy the music these speakers are making but I want to enjoy MY music, the Blues greats I've been listening to for over 30 years. If it sounds great in the car then I should be able to find the right gear to duplicate at home, right? On some good Blues recordings it sounds excellent, but most of my favorites aren't good recordings.
Since I only play my guitars through old Fender amps I figured I should replace the Marantz integrated with a tube amp, so next came the PrimaLuna integrated. I wanted to get a "warmer" sound and hope it'll fix the issues I was having with most crappy recordings... I want to hear BB's beautiful guitar tone and crank it up, without hurting my ears. Both Kefs were too fatiguing to listen to. And on most live recordings guitars sound way too thin and bright, not what I'm used to hearing. A good example is Albert King's Wednesday Night in San Francisco, that Flying V can be painful to listen to after a couple of minutes! Not so in the car or even just using headphones and my laptop. I understand that it's because the system is more revealing, but is it possible to have both, revealing and musical so that one can enjoy the music they love? The PrimaLuna did help and it's staying, I like what I'm hearing so far, and I get to play with tubes, something I enjoy doing already :)
Right now I'm breaking in some Wharfedale Denton 80th, I wanted to try something with a soft dome tweeter, something less fatiguing than the LS50. I'm at 70+ hours so far and they're sounding much better, not as fatiguing, but something is missing... I prefer the LS50's soundstage and details, but they're both not that great for electric guitar. The Dentons are more forgiving but I don't find them musical and they don't disappear like the LS50s do.
So what are my choices? Do I stick with bookshelf, try some floor standing? What about single driver speakers (Omega, Zu...)? Are those the answer to what I'm looking for? I need something more forgiving, musical, efficient so I can crank it up when I feel like playing along some times... I want the guitar to sound full and not thin and bright. It's a small room and not a lot of space due to my guitar gear. My budget is also limited, would like to keep it under $2k, I already have a hobby and don't want this to get out of control :)
Forgot to mention, I also have a Rel sub, so not too worried about the low end. Sorry for the long post and thanks for any help!
131 responses Add your response
Over bright/thin sound is the predominant character of noisy power. re the Tripp Lite Isobar, it’s quite common to start out with a power block surge protector and then find the sound is better without it.So I did a little back and forth this evening... the amp and source were plugged into the Tripp Lite, so I moved the amp to another power strip (Furman SS-6B), plugged into another outlet but probably on the same circuit in the room. It didn't fix the brightness but it did get rid of some irritating high frequencies that were bothering me when there was serious guitar lead (higher frets) going on. That's a good start! I used SRV's live version of Lenny from the Couldn't Stand the Weather album, which is very bright and thin sounding. I did this test 5 or 6 times just to make sure, and I always felt more relaxed with the Furman. I also played around with the crossover on the Rel. Initially I had it set low and volume turned up, I did the opposite, I set it at around 80-100, can't really tell, and had to drop the volume a lot to prevent boominess on some good recordings but loud enough to work on some of the thin sounding live recordings. This gave the guitar more body with the lower frequencies. Those two changes helped, so next I just gotta find the right speaker and some better power cables and I'll be good to go! |
Call Danny (can't hurt) at GR Research, he is a real nice guy and knows what he is doing, he has designed crossovers for many of big name speaker company's. I have a pair of his monitors I bought on a whim with upgraded crossovers to bring to work,they sounded so good they never left the house. The tone you say is lacking in your speakers these $500 ( alpha core inductors, mills resistors, sonicaps or any cap you want,point to point wiring) speakers have it for all music including blues. He can tell you a speaker to buy or you pick one. Send him your crossover and upgrade it for your taste or he will tell you what needs to be done at no charge after going over your crossover and you do it yourself. He has open baffle kits, monitor kits , maybe single driver, one of the best bang for the money out there. Or call Madisound they have single driver kits. That would leave you money for cables, conditioners or what ever else you may need. |
One of the posters correctly pointed out that Maggies are not electrostatic. They are actually planar magnetic, a different beast, but both planar magnetc and electrostatic speakers share certain characteristics such as high detail retrieval and directionality, which was the point I was trying to make. My little Harbeths sound good no matter what is thrown at them, but if you are looking for wide open, pants flapping, visceral gasp inducing recreating of over-driven electric guitar, they may be a tad polite. Get the horns and be done with it! |
The best speakers for listening to blues are the same speakers for listening to all genres of music. Vandersteen model 2s. From the late 70s to current day, they are very relaxing to listen to for hours. Holographic imaging because of 1st-order crossovers, all drivers wired in absolute polarity, time-and-phase correct from lowest notes to the highest. They are loved by so many music lovers because they do everything really well and play nicely with SS and tube gear. If you want a speaker that's the best in a niche category, look elsewhere. If you want to look forward to actually enjoying music, look no further. Tom |
Might be worth the effort. My 2Cs sit 9" from front wall, 7' apart, and 3' from one side wall, 3.5' from other. The bass is much smoother when the rear-facing acoustic coupler "couples" with the front wall. My listening seat is 11 feet from plane of speakers. No toe-in. The 3s are a bigger version of the 2s. Call Johnny Rutan of Audioconnection in New Jersey for better guidance about placement of Vandersteens. Tom |
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I listen to blues I guess predominately with a bit larger system than appropriate for your room. Since not having my Mcintosh MC60 tube amps with captive power cord any longer it was necessary to buy power cords for some new amps. Found a warm one in Analysis Plus Power Oval, $100 power cord. Since my new amps draw a lot of power I moved up to the upgraded Analysis Plus, warm but tighter presentation. The Power Oval was very musical, this coming from someone who never thought power cords made much of a difference. I'm betting the Zu Soul Supreme would punch your ticket but a bit out of your price range perhaps. Hard to find used. |
You could save a lot of dough by getting a refurbed or mint pair of large Advents - ones with the bull-nose cabinet and "fried egg" tweeter. I have five other pairs of speakers - all far more expensive than the Advents and none are better in absolute terms. I have upgraded/modified Heresy IIIs in my 2nd system and I’m more than a little annoyed that these 40+ year old Advents (all original except for cone surrounds) I picked up for $200/pair are the better speakers. And that’s even with the H-IIIs hooked up to the superior amplifier. And as a bonus, the Advents have a tweeter attenuation switch that allows +/flat/- 3db adjustment. I found a blurb in an old Stereophile review where they claimed that, with the exception of scale, the Advents were/are as good as the likes of Altec A7s. That didn’t surprise me considering they outperform some $3 - 4K speakers I’ve auditioned/owned. ...and they’re great with blues. |
Helomech, imo, you seem to rely on test reports and magazine reviews, rather than trying to figure out what you like, and want, in a system. If you are happy with the Advents, great for you. What have you modified / upgraded concerning the Heresy 3s ? I am assuming you dampened the mid horns, the tweeters, the woofer frames, and upgraded, even further, the crossover components. My AR 3a's will annihilate ( your wording ) your Advents, but they are still closed in and lifeless compared to some of my more modern loudspeakers, particularly a pair of modified Heresy 2s I own ( the ARs go deeper in bass, but are slower and softer ). I have the ARs because they belonged to my dad, and I will never get rid of them. I have driven them with some monstrous amplifiers, and they " are " good, and somewhat enjoyable. But, they sound like an old design, as do your Advents. But maybe, just maybe, your ears are tired of better speakers that showcase imperfections in the recordings, or your ears can no longer handle certain sounds, loudnesses, dynamics, whatever, which I believe is your point in posting here. Never hard feelings, as it is all about the music. Enjoy MrD. |
I would like to point out, that when the Advent was introduced, it was a game changer that allowed so many young folks, in college, or in life, to realize excellent hifi on a budget. Yes, they were a steal back then. I still appreciate them, but, they are not as good as many $1000. speakers of today, which is likely the inflationary cost today. So again Helomech, enjoy ! MrD. |
Blues wasnt meant to be so complicated . You are probably looking for the jukebox sound . No highs . Just a couple 10” jensen full range in vintage cabs . But really a set of jbl L36 . Well built , cheap and have adjustment to taste. A paper cone tweet and mid is likely what you need . You definitely do not need any upidy reference stuff . Simplify |
I would like to point out, that when the Advent was introduced, it was a game changer that allowed so many young folks, in college, or in life, to realize excellent hifi on a budget. Yes, they were a steal back then. I still appreciate them, but, they are not as good as many $1000. speakers of today, which is likely the inflationary cost today. So again Helomech, enjoy ! MrD.All I know is they’re better than many so claimed value leaders I’ve owned, that would include my Heresy IIIs and Tannoy XT6Fs. I’ve also owned KEF LS50s, Magnepan 1.7is, and Vandy 1Cis. On balance, to my ears, in my system, the Advents are the better speakers overall. Treble and bass are superior to the Tannoys. The imaging is as good as the KEFs. Midrange, sweet spot size, and bass depth is better than the H-IIIs (in comparison, the H-III midrange is super colored by horn and cabinet resonance, and that's even with constrained layer damping). The decay is very near as good as the Vandys while producing a larger soundstage. Detail is as good as any of them. I never heard the Advents in their heyday - that was before my time, however I doubt many college kids paired them with the caliber of gear I’m running in the rest of my system. |
I figured I'll do an update on my speaker search. I've done some of what was suggested here, added another 200-300 hours on my system, replaced power cords on the source and amp, added a Hydra 2 which I picked up here and only have the PrimaLuna amp plugged into it, and everything else is plugged into a Furman PST-8D. I Replaced the IC cables and added a Schiit Loki which worked out great for those really bright live recordings. Every change helped in some way and my system sounds great with the LS50, most of those nasty highs are now gone and everything sounds kinda tighter. Still no room treatment and not sure I'll do any, maybe in the future... But I was still looking to improve the electric guitar sound and get a "bigger" sound. So I found a nice pair of ProAc Tablette 10 in mint condition and figured I'll try them, wonderful little speakers! So much detail, even more than the LS50, but not as musical. The LS50 feel more alive and at times even louder, they just work better with my system. The Tab 10s are not for me I guess, so I'll be listing them. Next I wanted to try more sensitive speakers, kept hearing great things about the Klipsch RP-600M, and since I don't have room for the larger Klipsch it was the right pair to get. Only had them for a couple of days and so far all I can say is WOW! I'm loving the dynamics, clarity, great imaging and soundstage! They're so lively and fill the room just right. This was a big surprise, but... that whole horn thing is a little too much sometimes, I'm still messing with speaker placement and toe in. With no toe in it's not as shouty but I find that vocals suffer, add a little toe in and the vocals sound great with a perfect center image but those highs can be painful when it's turned up. This is an excellent speaker for that price! I'll give them more time to break in, but not sure if that'll help. So what's like the Klipsch but without the horns? :) Or a bigger sounding/more efficient LS50? |
I love these threads. we all post about speakers we own or want to own. Anything Vandersteen...There I got mine out there. Seriously, if a speaker is a good speaker, it's going to play anything well. There is no special speaker that is best for one genre. Ask any of the top designers adn they will tell you this and it makes sense. I understand that makers make compromises, but in the end a great speaker will sound great on all music. |
I've been playing blues guitar and other styles professionally for over 50 years, and I'm an audio geek as well as an active live concert sound technician/mixer. As no system should be "music specific" and especially shouldn't sound like an old tube guitar amp, I'm aware of everyone having tonal preferences with hifi stuff just like the way every guitar player sets up their amps and stomp boxes differently. I own Klipsch Heresy IIIs and drive them with a small single ended tube amp and tube preamp. Heresy IIIs are extremely accurate relative to what you drive them with, and the snappy response relative to efficient speakers is part of the whole thing...you may have heard the Heresy IIIs driven by less than ideal gear, but ya never know (I use a couple of carefully applied REL subs with the Heresy IIIs). My system shines with music from Sonny Landreth to classical to Monk and everything in between, and so should yours. |
cedarblues wrote: I've seen Johnny live many times... he was one of the greats! In addition to all the great blues Johnny W. performed and recorded, his other great gift to the Blues community was producing Muddy Waters on three albums after Muddy left Chess Records. All three albums won Grammys, so you could say it really got the word out. Johnny sometimes recorded Muddy live in clubs, which gave the rest of us a taste of the energy Muddy brought to live performances. |
The Harbeth PSRer is nice but a little anemic for blues. For me the best speaker that I have ever heard for blues under $5000 in a moderate sized room was the Fritz Carbon 7. So much so I bought a kit off him to build my own diy speaker for a custom room. Fritz usually doesn’t do this either. The carbon 7 gives a huge sound stage that is emersive, detailed, and warm. I think it’s down side is that it is not the fastest bass.... but man everything sounds good on them, especially blues. The sound is more dreamlike then lifelike. Give gim him a call he is a cool guy |
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So what’s like the Klipsch but without the horns? :) Or a bigger sounding/more efficient LS50?Stirling Broadcast SB-88s. They have smoother highs than any Klipsch (or any metal dome tweeters for that matter, sans Beryllium units, IME) Soundstaging and detail is at least on par with LS50s. They’re not quite as dynamic as Klipsch Heresys, but more sensitive than the LS50s, and bigger sounding. Musicality is off the charts - better than any speaker I’ve owned/heard, bar none. In that regard, they're even a little better than what I remember of the Stirling LS3/6. They’re a little more expensive than others mentioned, however, I know where to get some for a great price. PM if interested. |
you may have heard the Heresy IIIs driven by less than ideal gear, but ya never know (I use a couple of carefully applied REL subs with the Heresy IIIs). My system shines with music from Sonny Landreth to classical to Monk and everything in between, and so should yours.I might have to give the Heresy another listen, if possible, it wasn't an ideal setup when I checked them out... might explain why it was disappointing. In addition to all the great blues Johnny W. performed and recorded, his other great gift to the Blues community was producing Muddy Waters on three albums after Muddy left Chess Records. All three albums won Grammys, so you could say it really got the word out. Great albums for sure! I would've loved to see Muddy and Johnny on the same stage, what a show! I'm convinced tube amp + high sensitivity speakers is what I need. The more I listen to the RP-600M the more I like them. |
The Vandy's many have mentioned will give you a full range that you crave, very natural highs and it is about as musical as most any speaker I've listened to in all their price ranges. I listen to a ton of gear, but again, these are only our personal impressions. You can go ask Vandersteen about your set up, room measurements an all. They are very helpful. You have many choices. It's too bad you don't have dealers near you to audition. |