Blues? Tubes? Get all the Johnny Winter music you can get your hands on. Best of luck.
I've seen Johnny live many times... he was one of the greats! |
The Tannoys keep coming up in my search, might be worth looking into, not sure if there are any dealers in the area so I can hear them in person.
Can you help me understand why your car stereo is a reference, despite your being a Blues Guitarist? Thanks.
I'm not sure I understand your question? It's not really a reference, listening to Blues guitar in the car is just easier on the ears, compared to what I was hearing from the Kefs. I want to enjoy listening to music without it being fatiguing and would prefer not hearing a bright/thin sounding guitar tone. |
Given you play guitar live (amplified) I would have expected references and comparisons to live playback, tonality, timbre, realism, etc.
I had a feeling that's what you meant... there's no way I could use live performance as a reference, there's nothing that's going to come close, not with my budget :) being on stage at a bar playing the Blues is one of the greatest thing I get to experience, but I'm not trying to duplicate that in my room, I just want to enjoy the music and if it moves me I'll plug my guitar and play along. |
The studio version of Tin Pan Alley on Couldn't Stand the Weather sounds awesome on my system, no doubt! It's an excellent recording, clean, one of the best Blues recording I've heard. Stevie's guitar tone is extra clean on this song, I can crank it up and every instrument is just right. I wish I can say the same about other recordings... on the Legacy Edition of that same album, the second CD has live performances, try comparing that guitar tone to Tin Pan Alley, it's horrible! And with revealing speakers like the Kef I can't enjoy listening to the Live CD. |
I'm in the Tampa Bay area, is that close to you? |
Thanks for all the suggestions! Keep them coming. The Heresy are also on my list, based on what I've read so far, just worried about how they'd sound in a small room.
I'm in central FL. I've seen the Vandersteen recommended for Blues as well, but their size might be an issue, I would need to move some things around to make room for them...
I'm familiar with Anson of course, Ronnie Earl is another great Blues guitarist, love that clean Strat into a Super Reverb tone! Too many favorites to list! I'm also a huge Chris Cain fan, check him out if you haven't heard of him, he's more of a BB/Albert style, not the Texas Blues style. |
Thanks for the suggestions! I'm open to trying different cables in the chain if it helps, but don't want to end up spending too much just on cables, so what dirt cheap things can I try? I understand cables are important, but speakers make the biggest difference IMO, in audio and in my guitar amps. From my experience I know what good guitar cables do, but at the end everything has to come out of that speaker in the amp. Magnet type, cone, voicecoil, it all affects guitar tone, and after all these years I know how to get rid of harshness in guitar tone, but I'm clueless when it comes to audio... and that's why I'm focusing on speakers. |
I agree, it could be the room, but I'm limited with what I can do, it's already too crowded in there! But I've been looking into what I can do to cut down on the reflections.
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Appreciate everyone's suggestions so far. Here's the list of recommended speakers: - Harbeth P3ESR: I think these might be too small and not efficient enough
- Tannoy: Would something like the XT 6 bookshelf work or am I better off with the XT 6F?
- Klipsch Heresy
- JBL 4307
- Vandersteen (might be too big)
- Omega
- Zu
- Tekton
Really like the idea of a single driver, so I will keep an eye out in case something used pops up. |
If you want to approximate what you've heard as a blues player when you used a Fender amp, try a speaker with a base driver around the same size as the one in your amp, for starters.
Thanks, but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish... I just want to enjoy listening to Blues records, specially live records, without them sounding too bright or thin, but that might be a difficult task, if the recordings are horrible to begin with, that's what I'm finding out. So I just need to find a speaker that's not too revealing and more musical. |
However, I have trained my ears to still listen to them, if I am liking the musicianship. I will turn these recordings down a tad, in volume.
That's exactly what seems to be happening with me, I'm learning to accept the way some of these recordings sound and end up turning it down a little so it doesn't hurt my ears. This is a new world for me, my focus was always on guitar tone, and most of my listening was done in the car or on headphones, and seeing live Blues.
I think for great Blues you need a speaker that is very good at reproducing strings. Acoustic strings are an important part of much Blues...if the speaker can reproduce acoustic strings exceedingly well..then the rest will follow, IME.
Acoustic guitar sound wonderful through my system, can't complain, it's the overdriven electric guitar that's not working for me, but only on some recordings.
It's sometimes hard to get a true dirty/clean blues sound with hifi gear. I grew up on live blues and jazz born in New Orleans.Maybe you should look at and listen to high efficient single driver speaker, with a simple crossover, you can always mod the crossover to your liking.
That's exactly the problem I'm having! The way a hifi system reproduces those overdriven guitar tones can sound horrible to someone like me. For all these years any cheap system or even headphones make everything sound "smooth", sure details are lacking but man at least I can enjoy the music! Growing up in New Orleans with all that beautiful music must've been something! I went to the Jazz Fest in the early 90s and got to see my hero Albert King there before he passed away, and many others of course.
Or a lush el34 amp could work. Omega makes nice budget single driver think it's called the super 3 and retails for $700 but used much cheaper.
Already have the EL34 amp, Omegas are on the top of my list right now. I did talk to Louis this week and recommended his CAM speakers based on what I told him. |
@beernut I've seen some of your posts discussing the same thing here... so if you say the Heresy will get the job done then that's probably what I'll go with, but I'd like to listen to them in person first, if I can find any.
Not all power conditioners are equally effective and some can be detrimental. Having tried several I have found that Shunyata conditioners work very well and you could pick up a second hand Hydra 2 or 4 for a just a few hundred $
I will also look into power conditioners and better power cables, since this keeps coming up, thanks!
You have been using the LS50 and the Denton in your 12x12 room. Why do you state that the Harbeth is too small? With the REL subwoofer any small stand mount speaker is the best option in a small room like yours!
With the two sets I already have, on some recordings I find myself having to turn it up way too much and find that the amp might be struggling, being a 35 wpc amp, so something more efficient will help.
With Wharfedale Denton 80th, you kinda get the best speakers to listen that kind of music you love, yes sometimes Denton can be a bit dark
I don't find the Dentons dark at all, they're nice, but they don't excite me, they sound kinda "boring" sometimes.
Have you considered (the horror, the horror....) an equalizer?
Lol, yes I have actually. On the previous integrated I was using, the Marantz PM8005, that's exactly what I did. I left the source direct enabled and when I played some of these live blues albums I disabled it and I had the tone controls set to cut down on the highs and add more mids. Since the PrimaLuna doesn't have any tone controls I was thinking of adding something like the Schiit Loki. But if I can find a better speaker, more efficient, that will get job done and I don't have to mess with anything then I'll be set. |
The amp is probably at 200 hours, the LS50 have 100+ hours. I'm still breaking in the Dentons... do I really need 500 hours to decide if I have the right gear?? |
@soma70 you mentioned in a previous post getting a power conditioner and giving the amp and source clean power and isolate the two. Can you explain to a newbie like me? I currently have both plugged into a Tripp Lite Isobar, no conditioning at all, using the stock power cables. I believe I have clean power at home, but do run into noise issues sometimes with my guitar amps and sometimes see 125V at the wall, so for some vintage guitar amps I use a BrownBox to bring the voltage down and drop the plate voltage on the tubes. Not sure if that could also cause issues with my PrimaLuna integrated...
So do I get a conditioner just for the source? Or for both? |
@mrdecibel thanks for the offer! If I can get away I'll take a road trip to listen to your setup. |
Thanks for the offer captmobley! I'd love to hear those DIs, even though they're too big for my room. I'll keep you posted. |
So it seems you want to make crappy recordings sound good?
Yes... would you rather I listen to crappy music with good recordings? |
Blues is a fairly diverse genre ranging from more "classic" style like John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters, etc., etc., to folks like Beth Hart, Joe Bonamassa, etc.,etc. It appears that the OP’s issues are mostly with the latter style.
It is mostly with electric blues guitar and live recordings... for example, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer (all acoustic), great recording and I have a hi-res album, sounds incredible, but then Muddy "Mississippi" Waters – Live doesn't sound that great through my system. |
Build a system where you become confident that, when a bad recording sounds bad, it’s the source...not the equipment.
I already know that some of the recordings are not the greatest, the goal here is to find a solution to still be able to enjoy these recordings, without them sounding so horrible on a revealing system. If that means building a system that's not as revealing and more musical then that's what I'll end up doing. I'm not an audiophile and not looking to hear every single detail, I just want to enjoy the music, that's all. Unfortunately for me some of these great live blues albums are not the greatest recordings. Does that mean I'll stop listening to them? Hell no :) |
Oh yes....saw Albert King at an armory BYOB show in Kansas City in the early 1980s..unreal experience, still a top 10 concert for me.
Seeing Albert live is one of the greatest experience I had! Another one of the Blues greats I got to see, a number of times, is Albert Collins, he blew me away with that monster tone of his!!! |
If you can find synergy between your source, amp, speakers you will enjoy any type of music on your system. If not it will never sound right. You can't just throw a great pick up in a great guitar body and expect it to sound great, ( buddy of mine love to mod his pick ups he about drove himself crazy) same with "revealing " 2 channel gear.
I know all about swapping pickups, caps, strings, tubes, speakers... that's where I waste most of my time :) that's why I want to keep the whole audio thing simple. I don't really have the time or patience to wait 500 hours to decide if I like something. In that case I'll never be able to audition something within 30 days and return it if I don't like it. I gave the Dentons 100 hours, and even though the highs are a little softer it just doesn't do it for me. I knew I kinda liked the LS50s within the first 50 hours. This evening I decided to hook the LS50s back into the Primaluna. While breaking in the Dentons I was also breaking in a new set of EL34, so they're both at around 100 hours now. I also swapped the two 12AU7s with some Mullards just before I got the Dentons. I can't believe how beautiful these LS50s sound! Once I got 'em dialed in the soundstage, depth, vocals, and details were so much better and the highs even got smoother. The live recordings are still a little harsh with the guitar sounding a little too bright and thin, but I can live with it for now, it's not as fatiguing. I just wish the electric guitar had more body to the tone with the LS50, and not as bright, but the clarity of an acoustic guitar is incredible! And there's this beautiful reverb going on in the room, which I really love since I always have reverb on my guitar amps. I will compare tubes over the weekend, to confirm if that's what's helping, and give the Dentons another listen before I decide if they're going back or not. |
Because of this thread I spun junior wells - hoodoo man blues, roosevelt sykes - hard drivin blues, and sonny terry & brownie mcghee - midnight special, and they sound fabulous with my omega 3xrs high output! I left his morning to take the kids to swim school and came back to find hoodoo man on side two, meaning my wife gave it a spin 😉
LOL I definitely need the Omegas then! |
Yes, two separate systems is the solution, but unfortunately space is an issue with all my guitar gear in that room... there's been some great suggestions in this thread, so I'll keep working on it until I find the right setup, appreciate everyone's help!
The Heresy and single driver speakers are on top of my list. I like the size of the Heresy and they look cool too! There's a used pair locally that I might check out. |
If you decide on the Heresy3s.. I bought a pair from ebay recently the 'chipote' edition. No raiser / grill for $1100 pr. completely brand new. The seller has 2 pairs left.
Unfortunely, I'm in the process of organizing/packing or you can come over to listen to them (i'm in downtown orlando). I definitely dont have golden ears, but I enjoy my quad57 & .7s for blues & jazz.
Thanks for the tip and the offer!
If you have a small room, smaller stand mounts will probably be the best fit. Having a seperate sub (or 2) will allow you to find the best location to reduce unwanted resonances
That's the setup I have and want to stick with if possible. I can always make adjustments with the sub, but with a bigger speaker in the mix it might not work in that room, but I'm open to suggestions and willing to try something different if it gets me the results I'm looking for. Heresy or single driver speakers, not sure.
I am a guitar player (both acoustic and electric), and I play and listen to a lot of blues. My current main hifi rig consists of Harbeth P3esr speakers, Sound Anchor stands, and a single REL t5i sub. Adequate solid state amplification, tube pre-amp, and varied sources. I was able to move things around in my 13' x 22' room to get supurb, balanced sound that suits me perfectly. I cannot recommend the Harbeths enough!
You don't find the Harbeth too small sounding? I worry that with my gear it won't play loud enough when I need it to and will sound small for guitars... I want the guitar to have more body to it, the small speakers I've tried so far can't deliver, I think a bigger driver will help? |
Cedar. I have a dedicated feed from my CU and thought my power was pretty clean as well until i found a conditioner that worked. Over bright/thin sound is the predominant character of noisy power. re the Tripp Lite Isobar, it’s quite common to start out with a power block surge protector and then find the sound is better without it. you should try plugging the power cables direct into the wall and just see if it changes anything but i would really encourage you to buy some after market power cables. you will need try some or all of the components with a conditioner to see what works. have fun experimenting!
So is the conditioner for the source only? I keep reading that I need to plug the amp into the wall, then hear it needs clean power, which is it? I don't mind spending money on better cables, can you recommend an entry level cable for the PrimaLuna amp? |
Wow! Those are gorgeous speakers! And the specs seem right for what I'm looking for, high efficiency and a single 8" driver.
@br3098 will this solve all my problems? :) how would they do in a smaller 12X12 room? Based on the dimensions (I think you need to update them in your listing, 18" wide??), do they need bigger stands? They're kinda wide and tall... I have PrimaLuna integrated (35 wpc), will this be a good match in your opinion? Source is all digital, CD and FLAC.
Thanks! |
@mrdecibel you're welcome to stop by and post here, appreciate your input! And yes I figured that's what br3098 meant.
I wanted to also give an update... I managed to hear some Klipsch speakers yesterday, a local seller had the Heresy III listed and was kind enough to let me hear them. I was shocked at how BIG they sounded! And yes live Blues didn't sound as bad, but, I did not like the way they sounded, almost sounded like PA speakers to me. There was something missing, like specific frequency range (maybe low mids?) was not there, made it sound kinda hollow. He was driving the speakers with some nice vintage amps. He also had a pair of old La Scalas in the same room, so he hooked them up to the same gear and it was a much better experience! They sounded full, warm, detailed, just perfect! With the Heresy it sounded too crowded, no instrument separation, just too messy for me, almost like being in a bar listening to music coming from a PA speaker. The Heresy are probably not broken in yet, but I don't know if after they're broken in they will sound anything like the much bigger La Scala.
In another room he also had a set of Chorus II, driven by some old tube monoblocks, they sounded perfect too! Just full and so musical, that's probably what I would choose, but the size...
So, there you have it... I think I just need to find some full range speakers with bigger drivers, with softer highs, not too big, and I'll be set. |
Over bright/thin sound is the predominant character of noisy power. re the Tripp Lite Isobar, it’s quite common to start out with a power block surge protector and then find the sound is better without it.
So I did a little back and forth this evening... the amp and source were plugged into the Tripp Lite, so I moved the amp to another power strip (Furman SS-6B), plugged into another outlet but probably on the same circuit in the room. It didn't fix the brightness but it did get rid of some irritating high frequencies that were bothering me when there was serious guitar lead (higher frets) going on. That's a good start! I used SRV's live version of Lenny from the Couldn't Stand the Weather album, which is very bright and thin sounding. I did this test 5 or 6 times just to make sure, and I always felt more relaxed with the Furman. I also played around with the crossover on the Rel. Initially I had it set low and volume turned up, I did the opposite, I set it at around 80-100, can't really tell, and had to drop the volume a lot to prevent boominess on some good recordings but loud enough to work on some of the thin sounding live recordings. This gave the guitar more body with the lower frequencies. Those two changes helped, so next I just gotta find the right speaker and some better power cables and I'll be good to go! |
The Vandersteen might work, but their size is an issue in this room. There's a pair of 3a listed locally for a great price, but I'd have to move some stuff around to make it work. I would post a pic of the room but don't see how you can here.
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I figured I'll do an update on my speaker search. I've done some of what was suggested here, added another 200-300 hours on my system, replaced power cords on the source and amp, added a Hydra 2 which I picked up here and only have the PrimaLuna amp plugged into it, and everything else is plugged into a Furman PST-8D. I Replaced the IC cables and added a Schiit Loki which worked out great for those really bright live recordings. Every change helped in some way and my system sounds great with the LS50, most of those nasty highs are now gone and everything sounds kinda tighter. Still no room treatment and not sure I'll do any, maybe in the future...
But I was still looking to improve the electric guitar sound and get a "bigger" sound. So I found a nice pair of ProAc Tablette 10 in mint condition and figured I'll try them, wonderful little speakers! So much detail, even more than the LS50, but not as musical. The LS50 feel more alive and at times even louder, they just work better with my system. The Tab 10s are not for me I guess, so I'll be listing them.
Next I wanted to try more sensitive speakers, kept hearing great things about the Klipsch RP-600M, and since I don't have room for the larger Klipsch it was the right pair to get. Only had them for a couple of days and so far all I can say is WOW! I'm loving the dynamics, clarity, great imaging and soundstage! They're so lively and fill the room just right. This was a big surprise, but... that whole horn thing is a little too much sometimes, I'm still messing with speaker placement and toe in. With no toe in it's not as shouty but I find that vocals suffer, add a little toe in and the vocals sound great with a perfect center image but those highs can be painful when it's turned up. This is an excellent speaker for that price! I'll give them more time to break in, but not sure if that'll help.
So what's like the Klipsch but without the horns? :) Or a bigger sounding/more efficient LS50? |
you may have heard the Heresy IIIs driven by less than ideal gear, but ya never know (I use a couple of carefully applied REL subs with the Heresy IIIs). My system shines with music from Sonny Landreth to classical to Monk and everything in between, and so should yours.
I might have to give the Heresy another listen, if possible, it wasn't an ideal setup when I checked them out... might explain why it was disappointing.
In addition to all the great blues Johnny W. performed and recorded, his other great gift to the Blues community was producing Muddy Waters on three albums after Muddy left Chess Records. All three albums won Grammys, so you could say it really got the word out.
Johnny sometimes recorded Muddy live in clubs, which gave the rest of us a taste of the energy Muddy brought to live performances.
Great albums for sure! I would've loved to see Muddy and Johnny on the same stage, what a show! I'm convinced tube amp + high sensitivity speakers is what I need. The more I listen to the RP-600M the more I like them. |
