Spatial X5 speakers

A related "Spatial M3 vs. what-Amps-to-use"  thread on similar topics just two years ago, for what its worth...

I have the newer M3 Sapphires @ 4ohms 92db and yes they love tubes but found they love tubes with power. Although the X line has a powered sub,  the M3 Sapphire is completely passive. I felt those 15” woofers needed some muscle. I’m driving mine with the Octave V70 Class A and these speakers sing beautifully.

@audiosaurusrex 

Are you positive the X line has powered sub? I guess you mean the lower 15" driver? I don't see this noted in their website nor I can see the amp module in the pictures I've seen. That would explain how a 3-way OB could be driven by a low-power SET amp.

I don't have Spatials but DIY OB with the same Beyma AMT used in the X line and high efficiency midranges (twin 97dB 8" per side). I drive this with MC275MkIV and expecting a 45 SET in the next weeks to try. Mine is a 4-way active system and the SET will be tried for tweeters and midranges. Might need to get another one, or a 2A3 :-)

Midbass thru 18" OB driven by class D, sealed subs for the lowest end.

Very happy with this path.

@jaymark 

thanks for starting this thread.

Do you know the xo frequencies used around the 12" mid? I see Clayton reduced the 15" Deltalite mid to the 12" version, which should reduce beaming around the xo to the tweeter. Do you notice beaming when walking around the room? Within reasonable angles, of course - it is an OB after all!

Yes the X series has powered subs. Only the lower driver is the sub, the 12” driver handles mid bass and midrange duties.

@ozzy62 

Thank you for confirming. I wasn't aware. Do you know the xo for the sub?

The midbass/midrange seems to be Eminence Deltalite 2512, spec'ed as 99.9dB (of course not for OB). Depending on where these are xo they may or may not get to real 92dB sensitivity and might explain the experiences with low power amps.

I don’t own the speakers anymore, but I thought I remembered 90 hz as the xover point. Maybe someone here can clarify.

@ hilde45 I have collected some excess stereo equipment intentionally.  I love the Pass Lab amps.  To my ear, they do solid state right.  I actually have another Pass Lab X250.5  amp that will be returned to me after mods after the first of the year.  So, I am just throwing different amps at the Spatials in a grand natural experiment.

@ decooney, I am running a range of amps thru the Spatials because I have a range of amps to run thru them.  Hard to really predict how they will sound based on wattage.  No reason a 20 wpc tube amp should have trouble driving 97 db sensitive speakers yet some have tried some of these amps, and to their ears, they did not satisfactorily drive the Spatials.  So I am going to try a range of moderate to mid high power amps, bot tube and solid state, until my ears reconcile the winners.

@ hilde45, I do not think the Spatials need soft presentation tube amp to not sound harsh.  I am still in the breakin phase at at 335 hours now.  During this phase I have gotten some harsh reproduction with the Sachs amp.  However, as time goes by the occasional music that can sound this way is definitely lessening.  I think this is significantly, maybe not entirely, a break in issue

@jaymark Totally on the same page with you about trying different amps and not just looking at wattage alone. The Pass XA-25 and some of the Firstwatt amps have proven that its more about quality than quantity of watts. Select output transistors and quality big iron transformers help. Btw, I like the older .5 amps too. While I’m wrapped up on SS and mostly into tube mono amps any more, I still admire a few select ss amps. Following to learn what tube guys are doing with Spatial now in the mid-power 40-60w range, not into fleawatt tube or high power SS any more.

For X3's, the XO point to the powered sub is 90hz. "The 12” mid crossover point is 2nd order at 1kHz. The driver runs without a filter on the bottom of its range to preserve performance". (Per Clayton)

I'm running X3's with Allnic Audio A-6000 300b monoblocks. 50 watts per channel or 60w with EML XLS tubes.

The 50 watts from the Allnic amps feels like more than enough for the X3.

I've been through a lot of speakers and these are proving to be among the most difficult to get dialed in properly. I'm sure they'll be fantastic once I get everything right in the room and with cabling.

Congrats on your X5's.

Rooze

I have the X5s and am unclear Rooze on the crossover.  My understanding is that the 12 inch mid driver is blocked at 90hz so that it isn't reproducing any frequencies below 90hz and that the 12 mid bass driver does not have any crossover parts on the top of it's range and just rolls off naturally.  The tweeter has a capacitor at 1 kz.

Maybe you are saying the same thing above and I apologize if you are or maybe I'm mistaken in regards to the 12 mid driver.  I know the 12 inch mid driver does not move much with heavy bass material so it seems it's being blocked at 90 hz.

Amazing discussion of Spatial X3's here, including a complete rundown of the effects of different amps. 

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179575.0

Great read @ hilde45.  One thing for sure, long break in time is a spatial Audio familial trait.  My X5s finally developed percussive bass at north of 350 hours.  They have about 400 hours on them and are still evolving.  I now have my third different smp driving them.  The modded Pass Labs X150.5 sounds awesome.

Thanks for the info on xo points!

1kHz is kind of lower than usual for the AMT, but your ears report it sounds great. Good input! It also makes sense for a 12" mid. I guess going higher would lead to beaming.

Also interesting the 15" is crossed at 90Hz. Typically OB subs are played into 120-150Hz. And the 12" must be an amazing driver. Getting tempted to get a pair to try! :-)

Thank you!

I am thinking of adding a Townshend (sp?) supertweeter.  Will the Quad mounts they sell work on the X5?  

I would check with Townshend about speaker sensitivity matching and how to plug them into the X5.

The Townshends have variable level control maxed at 89dB sensitivity. The Beyma AMT are 102dB and the X5 is rated 97dB. Maybe that's an issue?

The Beymas do drop in response beyond 16kHz or so, so probably not bad idea. I know I can't hear sweeps beyond 16kHz. I wonder if I could appreciate a supertweeter correcting above that. Would be interested in your findings.

FWIW, I have the Taket Batpro 2 supertweeters on top of my Spatial M3 Turbos, and use a couple of pea sized pieces of Mortite- it’s a rope caulk similar to Blu-tack. It’s held firmly in place for three months and counting. You can’t even tell it’s there.

@lewinskih01 I just plugged the Townshend supertweeter into my lakehouse system.  They make a very pleasing and positive difference.  

@jaymark glad to read that!

Looking forward to your experiment with the X5. You probably can improvise something to hold them for an initial test. On paper the height of the AMT plus waveguide should be an issue for a crossover that high, but then I have tried a number of things that on paper were supposed to sound bad but actually sounded pretty good. Like my MTM with this AMT and twin 8" xo at 1.7-1.8kHz...supposedly lobbing would be pretty bad - but has not been. I hope you discover a gem!

@james_edward I ordered some Blue-Tack and will give that a try!  Thanks....

I realize most people here aren't into DIY and only a minority use active speakers, but wanted to share I added a Yamamoto 45-type SET to drive this Beyma AMT tweeter in open baffle, same as with X3 & X5, and I'm very very happy. These AMT have a flat impedance that seems to work well with SET and the 45 has more than enough power to handle this tweeter in OB. Very natural, open, detailed, no harshness, even though just a few hours broken in. I guess the X3 & X5 would be great candidates for active xo.

I now have > 600 hours on my Spatial X5s.  They have improved to my ears even beyond 500 hours of play.  These speakers throw a beautiful, detailed sounscape that exceeds what I have gotten out of even excellent box speakers.  Their liquidity is just about perfect.  To my ears, too much liquidity is artificial and thus undesirable.  Superb speakers.

Congratulations on finding a speaker you love.

Hi All,

Interesting thread! 

Has anyone heard both the M3 Sapphire and X5 Premium?

Can you please explain how they sound different?

Thanks,

Dsper

@jaymark you are driving these with your LSA amplifier no?

I hope it doesn’t deteriorate, too

My Voyager is driving Emerald Physics 3.4s, also Open Baffle. My first OBs were Accoustat 2 + 2s, then Maggie 3.5Rs before EP KC IIs, followed by the 3.4s. I’ve owned a few really good box speakers, too; Genesis Vs, Usher 6550s, Nearfield Pipedream entry level prototype (~$10k), but there’s something magical with Open Baffles

FYI, Since getting the V, all my listening was via my moded Oppo 105, with Linear Power Supply, Furutech IEC with silver wire to the LPS board, and a silver jumper bypassing the 110/220 switch. I play both red book and SACDs. About a week ago I decided to reinsert my Marantz HD-CD 1, purchased to use as a transport and possible backup player, when/if the Oppo dies. It was fuller sounding, with more bass, but sadly developed scratching issues in the magnetic clamp. The entire mechanism needs replacing @ $150+ shipping, and I didn't want to spend that much to repair (it's available for anyone who provides a pickup slip). Anyway, I scored a great deal on a Audiolab 6000 CDT, which I won't have until late next week, but based on the reviews and owner comments, it should be a huge upgrade

@jerryg123 right now I am using a modded PassLabs X150.5  amp.  I do plan to reinsert the Voager GAN because I started out with this amplifier but it was being used when the speakers were not nearly broken in.  The speaker breakin time with these speakers has been the longest that I have ever experienced.  

@jaymark It's great to see a follow-up from you after 500hrs.  Very helpful to others looking I'm sure.  Some people dive in here at A'gon, ask many questions, dive out, disappear, and never report back on findings. Your follow-up is appreciated.  Happy listening!  :) 

@jaymark well let us know how it works out with the LSA. I am intrigued by that amp and speaker combo.

Ok, @jerryg123 got me motivated to put the Voyager GAN amp back in.  It was modded previously by one of the posters in this thread.  I was semi chastised previously for putting my 150 wpc modded PassLabs amp on thes Spatial X5s cause of their high sensitivity.   I am glad that I trust my ears and not specs.  The modded LSA Voyager GAN amp sounds sublime on these broken in Spatials.  The PassLabs sounded good but the LSA surpasses it in slam, clarity, instrument separation, spatial cues and shockingly even on the low end.   I would have never guessed that the GAN Voyager via Grover Huffman Pharoah speaker cables would sound this damn good.  As much as I like high power sweet sounding class A amplifiers, the 25 pound Voyager GAN leaves me wanting for nothing in my setup.  I think I'll skip the herniated disc from lifting 100# amplifiers..

An addendum to my above post.  You can drive the Spatial x5s with low powered amps but, in my system, the amp experimentation that I have done suggests to me that the X5s like high power.  High sensitivity be damned, they sound better driven by a high powered smp.

@jaymark Thank you for the update and I am not surprised at all. 

HI Jaymark,

I have a request...please ??? you started listening to the x5's with a Don Sachs tube preamp and a few minutes ago you made a comment over on the amp/preamp forum that you really liked the SPL preamp. I would enjoy hearing your take on both the Sachs and the SPL preamps......a comparison would be really appreciated. Thanks for your help..... I am torn between a new tube preamp and the SPL. Best wishes always

Charlie 

@char1 I had the SPL Elector preamp in my exercise room system.  I listened to it in stock form.  I did not unbox it for several months after it came in.  Initially, I was going to sell it but changed my mind after it did not sell.  I then hooked it ip and holy smokes, I fell in love with it.  Big soundstage, very clear/clean musical palette, plus a tubelike overall presentation.  I won't now consider letting it go.   The Sachs preamp is in a different system.  The Sachs preamp has some tube sparkle but is not tubey.  It has a very clear, spacious presentation.  The two preamps give u a different presentation but they are both excellent performers.  

The state of high end audio is in great shape.  Not the cost is no object stuff cause I don't hang out there.  However, preamps in the 2000 dollar plus ranges the Sachs tube, SPL Elector and the Black Ice hybrid are great examples.  I have all three.  And while all different in presentation, they are all strong performers.

My Spatial X5s are stock though with an upgraded crossover.  I just got Townshend supertweeters as well.  I also use Loudspeaker purifiers that are sold on Audiogon though I had them upgraded and they are presently being shipped back to me.  

I owned the SPL Director, Performer and Phonos and absolutely loved the sound. I would have kept all three especially the Phonos which is a stunning phono preamp. The construction is rock solid and loved the small form factor, plenty of power as well.  I just had too much gear and really wanted to get into tubes. Wound up with the Octave V70 Class A and the Modwright PH9.0X and I think I'm happily done. 

Thank you Jaymark for taking the time to answer my query. I appreciate your take on the two preamps.

Best wishes always

Charlie 

The Coda Continuum #16 amp sounds sublime driving the Spatial X5s. 

Just noticed the X5s are discontinued in favor of the X4.  The X4 are passive vs. the X5 powered woofers with DSP control.  

I wonder why they discontinued the powered woofer model?  

I heard the X4's at the Pacific Northwest show this summer and was really impressed by these speakers.  Even in a hotel room they sounded wonderful.  One of my favorites at the show.

There appears to have been a major culling of models at Spatial, leaving just two currently available, the M4 and the X4, both in their "Ultra" version, whatever that denotes.  Part of it may be parts availability, and I suppose also possibly customer demand/preferences.  When I looked a couple of months ago at the website, those two models stood out to me as ones to try if one were going to go that route.

It doesn’t make much sense to go from 6 models to 2 models and not comment on why…..often when there is an information void, people can assume the worst.