Something For The Fuse Guys ...

No need for me to guess. People can draw their own conclusions.  

Pest.

How many copper wrist bands have been sold?
Does that mean they have magical healing powers?
The people who are "astonished" are those successfully selling fuses for 50x cost.

Pest #2

Tell us about directionality one more time GK. Please!!! Don’t make us wait.

Well that did not take long now did it......

May as well cull it Frank.

It's unfortunate that threads like this are always brought down by the same people and the same negative arguments.  Nobody can have a constructive discussion on this topic.

aux you actually gave a constructive response earlier about how fuses are used in various gear and I don’t hear anyone complaining so not sure what you are fussing about. Would you prefer all assertions no matter how much based on conjecture be taken as gospel? That’s called the road to nowhere.

Frank,

Notice that in the post you alluded to I didn’t say the doubters CAN’T hear. What I did say was that perhaps they don’t know what to listen FOR. That’s a big difference, and not intended to be a slight in any way. 

Sure, you have a point.  It's at least possible that the fuses make a certain sonic difference that a skeptic isn't listening for.
I'd say, ultimately, that can't take this very far though.  Plenty of people with sharp ears, and who have technical knowledge, are skeptical of the claims.

Thousands upon thousands of aftermarket fuses sold by various manufacturers, and thousands of happy customers attesting to the viability of these fuse tweaks. Are they all just "imagining" an improvement in sound quality?

YES.  Really.  That could easily be the case.
If it's a normal part of being human to experience bias effects, we can expect a lot of people to experience bias effects. And so long as we are talking about people taking a "subjectivist" approach along the lines of "I don't need this to be objectively verifiable, if I hear it I know it's true" then that very approach self-selects for the pattern of people who "hear differences." They are all using the same problematic methodology.

Again, it is this same reliance upon subjective experience, without objective evidence or controls, by which people in the millions come to believe...anything! 

Anyway, that's all I mean to comment on this here.  If you want to test fuses and find you hear a difference, and it's all worthwhile for you, enjoy.  We all practice this hobby our own way.   And I'm not actually saying fuses can't or don't make a difference.   Cheers.

Just for the record, I agree with prof.

Also I have stated multiple times in the past that fuses can make a difference and even described scenarios I have encountered over the years where changing a fuse did.

So based on that guess what? One might consider me to be a "fuse guy".

A" fuser" comes out!
😇😇😇😇

Yea well the problem is Op offered to send me a fuse to try and I accepted because I was genuinely curious. When I reported back and did not get the advertised results I was marginalized and my ability to listen questioned.  One particular "pest" suggested my findings were an outlier and should be disregarded. Not preaching the mandated fuse product gospel did not go over well with anyone.

Good news is I know from experience just the act of reseating a fuse can make a difference so changing one surely can as well. Of course nobody ever factors that in rather any positive change reported is automatically attributed to the fuse. I may have even heard some difference with the fuse sent but if so it was very minor and hard to confirm. I ended up going back to the stock fuse in my Arc pre-amp which appears to be of very good quality.

To me its like wires and power cords. They can make a difference but not always. Some are just designed way differently than others and some are cheaply made and some not. Maybe replacing a cheap or partially blown fuse with a new or higher quality one can make a big difference in some cases. Most likely when directly in the audio signal path like with Magnepan speakers but that is usually not the case with most home audio electronics.

So that’s the story. mapman out.

I did a fairly extensive test of the efficacy of SR fuses a while back...recorded results to play for reference, tried reversing them, had one blow for no apparent reason, and otherwise tried hard to see if the things made any difference...they don’t, and another interesting thing about the endless nonsense regarding Magic (and expensive) Fuses is nobody has offered up any reasonable explanation why they would. 

Whoa! What the ding ding?! Folks, can you believe it? we have a tie!! Pseudo skeptics 4, fuse apostles 4. We even have wolfman and madman repeating their same dreary claims of “extensive testing” and that nobody has explained how fancy fuses work. Yawn! I’m feeling a little sleepy. Now, get back in there guys and let’s see the feathers fly.

Mapman sez people can draw their own conclusions. Oh, you mean like the 100,000 happy campers who have bought audiophile fuses? Good detective work, Moops! 

It is simple to test if your fuses are limiting something without having to invest hundreds of dollars.    Just jump them with some spare wire and have a listen.  You can even get fancy and jump them with pure silver solid or other exotic wires.    If you can't here any difference it is unlikely a fancier and expensive fuse will work.
You can decide if you want to live on the edge and skip the fuses.   I never blew an internal one in anything solid state.   

I'm just slightly confused!  Can someone explain to me which order one would change (upgrade) fuses for max benefit?  A/C input surge fuse,
DC power supply fuses, speaker fuses?  Of course testing after each
change.  

I can't imagine the AC power line fuse would make any difference. But, it does make a little bit of sense that a speaker line fuse could make some difference.

My ARC D-110B has speaker fuses, when ARC upgraded that design
with MUCH better components they also eliminated the speaker fuses.
The fuse holders (at least the frames) are still in place they are just wired straight through. Given the cost of the amp I don't think they were cheaping out on a fuse.  

barts6
I’m just slightly confused! Can someone explain to me which order one would change (upgrade) fuses for max benefit? A/C input surge fuse, DC power supply fuses, speaker fuses? Of course testing after each change.

I can’t imagine the AC power line fuse would make any difference. But, it does make a little bit of sense that a speaker line fuse could make some difference.

>>>>>Why would a speaker line fuse make more sense than an AC power line fuse? They’re both AC circuits.

I’m a "no fuse" guy, the ridiculous cost of so-called "hi-end" fuses proves a small point, the better the connection, the better sound altogether.

With the exception of my tube preamp (miniature breaker on back) and transport, 
the gear goes off at the flip of the breaker switch from the panel box, never had issues during storms or any kind of power or brown-out.

prof

If it's a normal part of being human to experience bias effects, we can expect a lot of people to experience bias effects. And so long as we are talking about people taking a "subjectivist" approach along the lines of "I don't need this to be objectively verifiable, if I hear it I know it's true" then that very approach self-selects for the pattern of people who "hear differences." They are all using the same problematic methodology. 

>>>what a load of horseman knew her. Nobody is saying that certain psychological factors aren’t real but it’s the worst exhibition of pseudo skepticism to suggest that expectation bias, pro tweak bias, placebo effect, reverse placebo effect or whatever is responsible for peoples’ results in all cases - or even 50% of the cases. OK, let’s take the worse case scenario. Let’s say bias accounts for 50% of user results. That still leaves 50,000 who actually did get good results. and we only have like three dudes who got nothing. And then there are folks like yourself who won’t even experiment to find out. Give me a break. Just another skeptic in an ivory tower. 

@barts,

You may try a ‘boutique’ fuse in AC line to judge yourself if it brings any audible improvements. I would try an fuse that offers money back guarantee so you only out of return shipping. Keep in mind, fuses are directional, try both sides 😊

Looks like your ARC needs 5V SLO-BLO fuse. 

@geoffkait 

>>>>>Why would a speaker line fuse make more sense than an AC power line fuse? They’re both AC circuits.

The simple answer is that the AC input is whatever is coming into your system, no matter how conditioned or not. The output to the speakers is
and audio signal, much more open to getting screwed up by anything in the path.  I'm not a fuser.

The fuse in the speakers is in line with the incoming signal (current) from the speaker cables which is alternating current just like the current coming off the power cord in the amplifier or CD player where the fuse usually is located. The only difference is that the current is a lot higher coming into the amp. Plus the current going to the speakers is alternating AC at a frequency according to the instantaneous audio waveform frequency whereas the frequency of the wall AC is 60 Hz. But they are both AC circuits. Follow?

While I don’t disagree that expectation bias is alive and well, I find that I can almost always flush it out through extended listening sessions and swapping back and forth. I’m not trying to promote a certain product so I can sell something; I’m after the best sounding audio system. If something doesn’t sound good, it gets thrown out the window. If it sounds good, it stays. Over the course of years, I’ve managed to incrementally walk my system towards better and better sound. It’s gone from “that sounds pretty good,” to “holy sh*t, is there a violin in the room?!”

I’m a bit confused by the “objective” crowd that says you have to have measurements and blind testing or else it’s just placebo. I had one experience where I bought some bulk wire to make some speaker cables based on rave reviews. I had completely psyched myself up believing this cable would be the bees knees. I hooked it up, hit play and... it sounded like crap! Out the window it went. If tuning by ear is all placebo and expectation bias, then why didn’t I experience better sound? Why did my positive expectation bias produce a nocebo effect? I have yet to hear a viable answer to that question. Just crickets from the “objective” camp.

For the record, I have no opinion on fuses because I haven’t experimented with them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they do matter considering I’ve found stranger things that affect the sound.

Note that Kaitty doesn't use fuses, clearly hasn't done any meaningful comparisons between brands or "cheap common fuses vs. expensive ones," and simply adds condescending dismissive nonsense as that's his style...he actually sells (or tries to) useless things to the gullible, and seemingly is privy to sales numbers from Magic Fuse companies as befits his claims of being an Audio Insider. If "special" fuses displayed even a fraction of the astonishing benefits touted by the hyperbole slinging sales force who claim to just be trying to share their wonderful insight, then Nelson Pass, Dennis Had, Jason Stoddard, and countless other gear designers would be all over 'em...for the vast majority of these designers, they're not. Why is that?

Katie makes things up as needed to sell his point, products whatever tickles his fancy. The last guy I’d want on my team pitching the benefits of my product unless of course there are no benefits.  

It should be pointed out madman doesn’t actually have any products. One assumes it’s because he isn’t able to invent or design anything. But it’s probably just as well. 

The Subjectivist/Objectivist Synthesis, by Jason Stoddard

https://www.audiostream.com/content/subjectivistobjectivist-synthesis-jason-stoddard#wQhQuSLuAkyF8WH...

This hypothetical conversation makes me chuckle:

Subjectivist: "I think my new Arglebargle X1000 sounds way better than the Craphound PST-1."

Objectivist: "No, if they both measure 20-20K flat, have THD below 0.1%, and have a low output impedance, they have to sound the same."

Subjectivist: "I think my experience trumps your measurements."

Objectivist: "No, humans can’t perceive anything beyond that, see (insert links to tests here.)"

Subjectivist: "Well, I hear a difference and so does (insert anecdotes about friends, spouses, dogs, fish, etc)."

Objectivist: "Anecdotes aren’t data! You’re fooling yourself. (Insert words about scientific method and significant results here.)"

Subjectivist: (Sigh.) "Just leave me alone to enjoy my Arglebargle with the other folks I’m talking to here." 

Objectivist: "No! Don’t you see you’re being taken advantage of by evil companies selling overpriced gear?"

Subjectivist: "You probably just can’t afford good gear!"

Objectivist: "You’re nothing but a shill for the man!"

Subjectivist: "Ad hominem!"

Objectivist: "Ad hominem!”

wolf_garcia
If "special" fuses displayed even a fraction of the astonishing benefits touted by the hyperbole slinging sales force who claim to just be trying to share their wonderful insight, then Nelson Pass, Dennis Had, Jason Stoddard, and countless other gear designers would be all over ’em...for the vast majority of these designers, they’re not. Why is that?

>>>>Because you can‘t teach an old dog new tricks.

At the graduation ceremony of a big audio engineering school the president gave the address in which he said, Some of you will go on to big things. The rest of you will become audio engineers. 

From Paul McGowen:

“The prototype amplifiers didn’t have output fuses. It wasn’t until we got to the production versions that we added them, and that’s when the trouble started. The production amplifier didn’t sound as good as the prototype: thinner, weaker, with less bloom and midbass strength, relative to the prototype. Why the two sounded so different was a real head scratcher.

When faced with such differences, you start removing any changes between the two until they sound the same. It didn’t take long before we discovered it was the damn output fuse.  Short it with a clip lead and the fullness of the music returned...

In the end we came up with a clever scheme. We took the feedback for the amplifier not from the amplifier’s output, but from the output of the fuse. Thus, the fuse was included in the amplifier’s corrective feedback loop, and the fullness returned to the music...

The point of the story is simple. Fuses matter. But why should they matter in the AC circuit? I don’t have a great answer handy. But we’ll look some more tomorrow.”

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/

Paul’s favorite expression is, “I have no idea how it works but works it does!” Thanks, Paul. That was real helpful. 😬

A fellow A’goner is due here in a few minutes. He’s very familiar with my system. It will be a lengthy listening session today. Stay tuned ... we’ll see what he thinks of the prototype fuses.

Frank

PS: I didn’t know there was a "salesforce" involved here. I can hardly wait for my huge commission check to arrive in the mail.

One can set one's watch, clock, sundial, or even start a new entry in the Farmer's Almanac with the regularity that this topic comes up with. 👍

All the best,
Nonoise

Nah. The Farmer's Almanac was put out annually. The fuses, every two years or thereabouts. 

Take the blue pill!

I have always bypassed the speaker protection fuses on amplifiers, with the exact same response quoted by that P.S.Audio guy, as I do not remember his name. Why should I ?,  because he does not know how anything works. Kidding, of course, about not remembering Paul's name. The first and foremost reason that manufacturers use fuses, is for protection, and safety. The inexpensive, and basic Bussman or Little fuse, does this particular job well. The supplied 16 ( maybe 14 ) gauge power cord, same thing. Most of us remember the absence of the iec inlet on products. Tube manufacturers, ime, never include the most expensive tubes. They do not use the most expensive isolation feet ( these are examples )...These are all offered as aftermarket items, and the manufacturers leave this to the buyers. Never the finest capacitors in speakers, and other gear....Products, are manufactured, always meeting a price point. All answers as to why upgraded fuses are not included with the gear. Enough of my jargon...Enjoy ! MrD.

"Upgraded fuses" are still simply fuses...they're not supposed to do  anything but fail if needed unlike tubes, isolation feet, and most other explainable items...manufacturers of high end products certainly do include the best tubes and other components that matter, and generally exclude those that don't.

So, in other words, wolfman, you think the fuse is like the power cord - it just serves an electronic function and has no bearing on the sound? You think power cords all sound the same? 🙄 Besides, most high end amp designers are blissfully unaware of audiophile fuses. Even if they are aware of them they’re overly suspicious. Fancy fuses and high end power cords would blow their budget, anyway.

It truly would not matter IF a high end manufacturer included a boutique fuse, power cord and/or tubes with their item.
There would still be some Audiophools who would not like THOSE particular boutique items and want to change them out anyway, so why should they bother?

Half the fun for some is the voyage of discovery of what has the best synergy in their system as a whole.
And that does include fuse, pc, ic, sc, tubes, footer etc etc.

Now I know some members believe that they are all a waste of time and money and that is fine, not asking them to spend their money or time if they do not believe.

But please just desist with the outright denigration of said products as it just causes a never ending argument and makes some look extremely narrow minded to boot.

Enjoy your music folks!

More to my point, high end amplifier designers by and large are at least two paradigm shifts behind the power curve when it comes to audiophile stuff. I suspect it comes largely from being fat dumb and happy. Resting on ones laurels,  hyper circuit focused.

@geoffkait 
" The fuse in the speakers is in line with the incoming signal (current) from the speaker cables which is alternating current just like the current coming off the power cord in the amplifier or CD player where the fuse usually is located. The only difference is that the current is a lot higher coming into the amp........................Follow?"

Well, no I don't follow.  The input AC is of one frequency which will be rectified to DC to perform its task of being changed again by tubes or transistors to an AC waveform. Just as I believe that signal cables have a much greater impact on sound than do AC power cords. The fuse argument is the same as the cable argument.  I won't deny that some fuses may make a difference particularly if they're in the signal path.

With over 17,000 posts I suspect that you've read >200,000 posts.  You're way ahead of my paltry 7 posts.

It appears to me you’re not quite following. Speaker cables and power cords are both AC. 🔛 The signal travels to and fro on each wire + and -. That’s why it should not (rpt not) be too difficult to imagine fuse direction might well be just as important as speaker wire direction. 🔜

The irrefutable fact is whatever effect a particular fuse has on sound is based on conjecture which is fine because conjecture is a huge part of "high end audio". Not all conjecture is created equal though. If sworn affidavits on an audiogon chat thread and Geofkait’s constant repeated conjecture is enough for people in the case of fuse X, so be it. But don’t act shocked and offended when you air your laundry out in public and others take notice.  Especially when someone somewhere is making a lot of money from it.

Fuse on!

Apparently the systems at RMAF used the wrong fuses.  Go figure!

Yeah, right. RMAF is high end. 🙄

madman, as the hillbilly in Deliverance said to the city slicker who was about to go up the river in a canoe, you don’t know nothin. No offense intended.

Bingo...mystery solved. That must be it...no boutique fuses and no PPT ‘magic pads’. No wonder all but two systems at RMAF sounded bad 😳

Now I’m glad I didn’t bicycle all the way out to RMAF. 🚴‍♂️

Any updates Frank?
From your in-depth Sunday listening sessions?