Stylus rubbing on vinyl is not a cause of static charge. This was shown by Shure Corporation in their published white paper on static charge. I and some other guy here who also owns a static charge meter have repeated the experiment with the same result. No cigar on that idea.
My position has been stated twice already. I use no dust cover during play; I completely remove the cover, if the TT has one. But I advocate that each of us should make his or her own decision. My practice is based on my listening tests and my subjective opinion of what sound best. I do agree it’s a fine idea to cover the TT when it’s not in use. For the past many years I’ve had 5 TTs up and running with 6 different tonearms and cartridges, 3 TT s feeding one system and two TTs feeding another separate system.
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@lewm
I thought you made your position clear in your first post, no need to say any more!
You are right - electrostatic forces are orders of magnitude more powerful than gravity. Another way to create static charges is to rub vinyl with a diamond stylus. Those charges immediately attract dust. Interestingly about 30% of dust extracted from records is diamond!
In my opinion the OP raised a good question - should the dustcover be raised or not when playing a record. Clearly this presupposes there is a dustcover and that it is hinged. If your turntable does not have a dustcover, or the dustcover must be removed when playing, this topic is not going to change anything for you.
I read up about the Wilson Benesh GMT One System turntable, which weighs almost half a ton and uses lots of materials science, university types and research grant money to minimise unwanted resonances. This behemoth does not have a cover, although it costs house-money! Obviouly they don’t worry about airborne feedback, or dust!
For the record (sic) my dust cover is hinged to an outer plinth which only connects to an inner plinth via the sandstone blocks they stand on. Otherwise there is an air gap, a bit like a double-glazed window.
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Evolution ain’t what it used to be!
But you can still have a laugh!
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I guess that is "yourlogic". Unfortunately or fortunately, we are not all living in Fuller's geodesic domes. Another prediction of his gone awry. But it interests me that you can read what Elliot wrote about dustcovers vis a vis turntables and in any way conform that thought with Buckminster Fuller's thoughts on anything. The only way I can see that parallel is if you take the dust cover as a modern innovation, which of course it is very much not. Far from it. It is rather more accurate to say that progress in turntable development has included the gradual elimination of dust covers.
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lewn
So pleased you are following this very interesting thread, some call it a boring subject….you know!
The last few posts are relevant to dust covers, you were just not paying attention but just wanted to reciprocate.
elliottnewcombjr was just stating the obvious with ongoing engineering development. Buckminster Fuller was a renown inventor and his views are also relevant to the discussion.See his famous quote posted.
In an earlier post elliottbnewcombjr also stated this opinion on turntable covers….
’’Impractable TT’s (any TT) without a dust cover is an incomplete solution, an abomination, they should be ashamed of themselves’’
Fullers reasoning is the same….
‘’You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something (that can be improved) build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete’’
Elliott and myself may not agree on everything, but we do agree with Buckminster Fuller and the need for constant development.
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Not that I care much, but what do the last few posts have to do with dust covers?
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elliottbnewcombjr
‘’Alices Restaurant’’ has all come back to memory!
Buckminster Fuller is new ground and has made me look into his history…..’’Spaceship Earth’’ and all that!
One of his theories remind me of Linn’s LP12. All the expensive tinkering over the years and upgrades to make this model better and things have not changed in 50 years.
l love his logic and this quote from him….
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
Why have Linn never built another turntable and try to better the LP12?
l wonder what Fuller would have made of this staying in the past?
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mylogic
I’ve witnessed Arlo Guthrie a few times yapping away, then he says "I know I’m supposed to be singing, but you can’t always do what you’re supposed to do’ And the stories are all related to where he started.
You would love a Buckminster Fuller lecture, in 1967 that crazy man took an entire auditorium at Pratt Institute on a meandering thought trip and at the end of the hour slammed it home, OMG, I still remember it like it was last week.
Vibrations getting to the surface are all related to the Dust Cover on/off issue, as is this fundamental question about equipment location.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/location-of-compoments?lastpage=true&page=2#2757920
Thorens, yeah, they should have had more clearance than that in that model.
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The zerostat works, but what it does is to reduce static charge, not magnetism. Static charge develops on every LP when it is handled because vinyl is one of several materials that easily accumulates an excess of negative ions on its surface. The magnitude of the negative charge can be great enough to dramatically attract the cartridge, increasing the effective vertical tracking force of the stylus on the LP, causing distortion and even damage. This of course is a pull on the cartridge in the opposite direction from what you observed with a lucite dust cover that got charged up and then discharged. In that case, the charged cover was exerting an upward force on the cartridge. LPs get charged up when you remove them from a paper sleeve or when you touch them with your finger tips after walking across a wool carpet, for examples.
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I haven't seen it addressed so far in this discussion so I'll relate an experience I had back in the late 60s / early 70s when visiting my favorite audio emporium. The owner kept a very orderly showroom and a regular dusting of the display components helped keep it that way. On one visit, the owner took me aside to show me a discovery he accidently made while on his dusting routine. If memory serves, I believe the turntable in question was a DUAL 1019 and the cartridge was a SHURE V-15. He played a record with the dustcover down, ran his dusting cloth over the plastic lid and the playback sound changed considerably. He then produced a "ZeroStat", a pistol-shaped device that was used to de-magnetize vinyl reccords prior to playing and activated it over the dustcover. The playback sound returned to its previous character. If I hadn't seen and heard it I wouldn't have believed it possible ! The dusting cloth had magnetized the dust cover enough to cause the tonearm to lighten up its tracking force and the ZeroStat dispersed the magnetic field to restore it to its original tracking force ! I never tried to duplicate the feat at home and had no reason to believe that the owner was playing a trick on me, so, to this day, I play my TT with no dustcover in place. Was he trying to get me to buy a ZeroStat ? I dunno, but I did buy one and still use it on occasion !
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I have two turntables, and I like both. A Sonograph SG-3 and a Kenwood. Both have dust covers that I use to protect the TT when not in use. I had noticed the acrylic dustcover material would attract dust to the cover and would sift through the crevices in the dustcover hinge joints. I ended up solving this by getting a destat source from Amstat Industries to produce a charge to counter the electrostatic attraction of the Acrylic. It is a polonium 210 alpha emitter fixed in a bar array, and gets two sided taped to the inside of the dust cover or base of the TT. Works well; is safe. Not inexpensive because it needs to be periodically replaced as it decays off and looses its effectiveness. but it does destat the dust cover and everything under it including the vinyl record.
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Am l am correct in thinking that Rega and Project turntables are light weight minimalist designs? They certainly look like featherweights in the hi-fi boxing ring….
Maybe that’s why they shy off covers? Highly likely they already know that their design structures are not massive enough to resist external forces unlike decks with heavier more substantial plinths.
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I don't know why I keep posting on this, because it is one of those questions where every one of us is already convinced of the efficacy and rightness of his or her current practice. We are all pretty much old farts and set in our ways. Suffice to say, what I have already said, anything anyone else wants to do is fine with me. I am operating based on my own past experiences, and so probably is everyone else. But please please don't accuse others of (1) not having a system good enough to hear what you hear, or (2) being a Philistine and so able to tolerate the horrible problem that you have seen fit to prevent.
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It is pretty obvious most turntable manufacturers would rather not have to deal with dustcovers!
Thought I'd try to measure the attenuation from my cover, so I dug out my Denon Audio Technical CD and played some test tracks. At the same time, I ran a Sound Meter application on my Android phone and put the phone on my platter mat near the pickup. I could watch the phone while raising and lowering the dustcover.
On 1000-Hz test tones, the attenuation was about -13-dB with the cover down, while it was only about -3-dB down on white noise On pink noise there was barely any difference!
I must point out that my plinth and table lean towards the massive side. The more the mass, the less the amplitude generated by a specific acoustic energy level. I find it interesting that Pro-ject don't want airborne vibrations to enter their plinth from a dustcover, but are presumably happy for them to enter the platter directly.
Acoustic feedback might make for nicer sounds, and could even explain why so many like records. But it does not make for accurate playback if that is your thing.
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My Pro-ject tt user manual specifically states the dust cover can pick up resonance from the loudspeakers and pass those resonances into the plinth, therefore remove the dust cover while playing.
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@lewm
Household-wide, I normally subscribe to the equilibrium theory of dust - eventually enough leaves to balance the amount arriving! But if you do use a dust cover while playing, the air volume inside the cover is pretty much a closed system so once the dust settles, no more arrives. Most seems to end up on my stylus which I can now see with my new Zeiss loupe.
@noromance
I am not surprised you can hear a sheet of paper inserted under a record. A lot of sound energy is generated by the stylus and some of this energy hits the bottom of the record. If the record is well-coupled to the platter, the energy will pass into the platter and be dissipated. With paper, it is more likely to bounce back and affect the stylus.
At least, that's the theory behind the Achromat which is basically a vinyl mat infused with tiny air bubbles to absorb vibration. Vinyl couples well with vinyl!
I am surprised at the lack of acoustic feedback I am encountering. But whether you consider a dustcover to be a massive undamped structure or not, it provides more attenuation than thin air! It cannot create more sound energy than hits it, and some is absorbed and some reflected.
Of course, if the record surface and the cartridge body are both displaced equally by impinging vibrations, there is no relative movement to contribute to the signal output by the cartridge.
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I have a Rega P8 and recently had the opportunity to play with a Naia. Can confirm that Rega ships their $13,000 TT with the same janky dust cover the P8 comes with, if that tells you anything.
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Like Bill mentioned in his OP, of course there is such a thing as acoustic feedback that could in the worst case affect the cartridge, but the cure for that is to move the TT or the speakers so as to prevent the phenomenon. Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, acoustic feedback of sufficient magnitude to affect the cartridge is also going to energize the massive undamped dust cover with possibly worse consequences. No experiment is necessary, ltmandela.
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And various test scenarios. One lid up, one lid down and for good measure one lid off
You seem good to go on this one. Please let us know (if you care to) your summations on the differences if any?
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@lewm
Yes I do not shout while playing, but the MUSIC PLAYING BACK certainly does, and would definitely be feeding back into the cartridge.
If you do not want to believe there is feedback distortion, try this.
You need two TTs. Setup the "motionless needle taping" on one table, play loud music through the other table. Then playback the dead needle tape. You will hear the music you were playing on the active table.
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The big question now is…..Has anyone’s opinion changed?
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To my reading of it, the OP is not asking a question; it makes a statement. To wit: "So the often offered extremes: a) Always play your records with the dust cover down, or b) put the dust cover away in it's box and never use it, should both be recognized for what they are are - not solutions at all. First principles: Identify the problem(s), seek solutions and alternatives, prioritize."
That reminds me of Mike Myers SNL character, the lady on the apocryphal NYC radio show, "Coffee Talk", who would pose an issue without an opinion, and then say "Discuss". Predictably, that is what has happened here. Bill left off the obvious third option, which is to use the dust cover only when the turntable is not in use, and that too has been discussed. I wager no one's opinion has been changed.
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lewm
What l meant was RB was one point ahead of the field.
Also it was not my original point….. It was ‘billstevenson’ who posted this thread !
And l see a few posts back, billstevenson is having a laugh too !
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I think you’ve made your position clear. “Exposing the record for the least amount of time is paramount “, for which you awarded RB one point, to zero for all other opinions. So what more do you want on this boring subject?
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Anyone getting back to the real question posted on this thread?
Theres been so much off track mumbo-jumbo on furnishings, table/chairs, record clamps and TV innuendo. This just shouldn’t be here!
Point on task was simple, ‘dust covers’ on or off?
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Elliot, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a square-shaped flat screen TV before now. Happy new year.
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"@elliottbnewcombjr Why not move the dining table set to the other end of the room?"
You would think, right. Of course I have moved the table/chairs out, tossed down a rug ... to compare/prove it still sounds great with them there. I’m actually quite pleased with how versatile the room is.
It’s one room, 14’ wide, 24’ long only 8’ high, with both music/dining at one end and living/video other end, a cross aisle to a 3 season porch just in front of these 2 listening chairs which simply turn around to join living/video which is oriented across the 14’ width behind them
Imaging is all Phantom in 2 Channel, the table and chairs may actually help with imaging once you accept that no sound is blocked, here we add a Christmas Tree which also blocks nothing except your mind if you think about it.
I add 3 leaves in the table for family gatherings
a member pointed out that the piano might make vibrations, I thought so too. I have tried with my Amazing Bytes CD to start/stop/listen to all 29 1/3 octave test tones, I cannot get the piano to sing.
The speakers are on 3 wheels, I can push them back into the corners when needed for holiday dinners, position/toe them in for one or two listeners, DBX Cross Dispersion Method as discussed here
https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11516
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Just how resolving is the system? Or the listener's apparatus? I can hear the difference a sheet of paper makes under a record. Dust notwithstanding, the audible impact of a hunk of plastic added to a system must be discernible.
- the sonic effect of closing my dustcover seems to be subtle to non-existent, at least to my ears.
- I hear ZERO difference with the cover up or down !
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‘richardbrand’ has a head start with the answer so far l think. Exposing a record for the least amount of time is paramount. 1 - 0 to Richard.
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Ok everyone take a deep breath, go play a record. Now do you feel better? Do you know where your dust cover is?
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LP12 owner here : Dust Cover always on even when DSD64 ripping Vinyl. Why ? Dust and Dog hairs coming from my Garage and my two Dogs. Plus I hear ZERO difference with the cover up or down !
For 40 years (ok...I took a 6 year hiatus) LP spinner (my previous MoFi hadn o dust cover ....period) and Dual CS515 prior always played with the cover down.
That’s my take on the subject.
Happy New Year Everyone !
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I think for all those who think using a dustcover is a panacea, turn out the lights and cast a UV light on the playing surface and tell me it's dust free. [hint: it isn't]
A lot of high end tables (like mine) don't really even support using a dustcover, during play or otherwise. After hundreds/thousands of hours of use without one it's just not an issue.
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@lewm
You raise good questions. Hopefully, some grad student somewhere will research the answers. I have my beliefs/worries, but it's all speculative.
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So I have a question for those of us who advocate using a dust cover during play, for the primary reason to avoid the accumulation of dust. (The acoustic argument is different, I think.) Let’s assume we all agree there is some sense to using a dust cover when the TT is not in use. Presumably, that keeps the area under the dust cover free of dust during those periods. Furthermore, when you remove an LP from its sleeve and place it on the now uncovered dust free platter, we can have reason to believe that the LP playing surface is also free of dust, relatively speaking. Then most of us use some sort of record brush prior to play, and some of us take steps to reduce the static charge on the playing surface, which would go further to delimit the possible accumulation of dust during play. Moreover, it takes about 20 minutes to play one side of a 33 rpm LP, so the net exposure time to the environmental dust is about that long. Do you in the dust cover user during play camp suppose that in the course of 20 minutes, the LP could possibly accumulate enough environmental dust to cause ticks and pops (presumably that could only affect the innermost grooves, since they would be exposed longest to the air before being "read" by the stylus) or to otherwise damage the LP? Even accounting for the fact that when you set the stylus down on the outermost grooves, the LP is likely to be "clean"? And finally, what do you think happens to dust in the air that you trap over the LP surface, by the very act of using the dust cover? At least with no dust cover, the airborne dust has a chance to pass harmlessly across the LP surface and land somewhere else. Once the dust cover is placed, the airborne dust has nowhere else to go but the LP surface.
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As a record rotates, the air closest to the surface gets accelerated towards the periphery, drawing a steady stream of air down around the spindle. So reduction of air-born dust suggests closing the dust cover during play.
A dust cover also acts a bit like closing a window, and it will attenuate external airborne vibrations from reaching the cartridge. My Garrard 301 table is in the same room as my speakers, which are either dipole Quad electrostatics or KEF Reference 1 with rear ports. The dustcover is an acrylic affair made by SME and is voluminous with plenty of space. I am very surprised that the sonic effect of closing my dustcover seems to be subtle to non-existent, at least to my ears.
Obviously, there is acoustic output from the needle / cantilever which is partly airborne and partly transmitted through the vinyl record, I am using a 5-mm Achromat to absorb record reflections and transmission to the platter, which leaves those airborne sounds we can just hear if we are close enough. They will reflect internally from a lowered dustcover but I would have thought the sound level would be far less than the speakers generate with the lid open!
So I put the lid down unless i forget!
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Elliot your bias compensator is way off….
This thread is about turntable covers … on or off!
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@elliottbnewcombjr
I use a center weight and peripheral ring on my Clearaudio Innovation and they work quite well. However, the turntable is designed for them I also use Clearaudio's versions so they fit and do the job perfectly.
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I believe the previous post is hi-jacking this debate.
I thought we were talking about turntables cover on or off?
Anyway, back on track please…..
oldaudiophile, you are a kindred spirit. I believe entirely what you say. I replied to the original poster without reading all through the other replies. I did not ‘hack’ your opinions but we are of the same old school l believe. Yes Thorens did a public relations job on that complaint about the cover being too small and unfit for purpose.
l am in the UK and Thorens dominated mainland Europe in the 70s and 80s (not UK which was Garrard territory). I am very familiar with Thorens turntable owners in that period and spent many evenings music listening with their set ups. I can never recall any manuals stating remove the covers ever! Unless someone bought a chassis deck to install on a hi-fi bench then the cover on or off issue may have been different.
Hi-fi has become a bit of a home living statement now so it must be always on show. Now it’s all about design over aesthetics and manufacturers today have abandoned in most cases the use of turntable covers.
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Related:
Warps get helped, but for typical LPs, all that I play:
I definitely want to use something at the center spindle to assist rigidity, minimize air pocket bulge below, eliminate potential of any movement, i.e. LP firmly in place to transmit groove info most completely to the stylus, the forces involved are tremendous.
Sturdy designs like former Thorens TD124, Technics SP-15, current JVC TT81, I use somewhat heavy AT Disc Stabilizer, 300 grams
Clamps, and Retainers exist to reduce weight concerns for some designs, Ask your maker
Luxman PD441, 444, 555 all have a special ’load reducing’ motor design, magnetics reduce 80% of the weight on the bearing, so I got my friend rubber retainers used to hold tape reels on spindles the same diameter, you just push them on.
I like the idea of vacuum hold, but not the idea of a running motor, so I wanted to also use weight at the perimeter, I tried Wayne’s Perimeter Ring, unsuccessfully as the ring’s weights hang down too low and touch the wide rim of the JVC TT81
Here it is shown upside down, with the centering jig you need
My Mitsubishi LT-5V Vertical TT has a very ingenious hinged arm with spring assisted center clamp/pull to release
In my garage/shop, to keep an 8 track and fit a dual cassette deck in the stack, I changed to a Sony Front Loading Drawer Type TT, too light of a mechanism for a weight, and no clearance to place anything on/off anyway.
I found an advanced stylus P Mount, and then an adapter to convert P mount to 1/2" standard.
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I can only comment on the original post in regard to on or off with dust covers…..
That Thorens engineer was covering up (literally) the original design problem with that model of deck…..
Which manufacturer would not allow a tolerance for eccentric records in the first design stage. Even worse not to address issues before mass production?
Thorens dropped a clanger here all right, big time and gave a stupid excuse!
Even stranger for a hi-end dealer to accept this and to finish the tale…believe the manufacturer that it was not ‘their fault’
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my method of speaker toe-in and rear slant, thus inward and upward directivity, is part of why I don’t seem to get vibrations on the surface of the LP between/behind the sealed boxes I think. Your setup may be part of the solution, or .......
My SUT to select which arm and impedance or PASS for MM just fits under the side of my TT, (normally I can see/move it’s two selector knobs, shown pushed too far underneath the TT here) I have to move my Preamp/Amp cabinet to work on it. Notice felt squares on the end of the dust cover
It’s big, you need to plan for where it goes during play, some covers would be huge, it may determine where you place other equipment, it did in my setup.
Some more felt on the face of the Reel to Reel Tape Player protects the cover when using the TT. Below, prior setup, SUT was on a shelf below the TT, actually harder to see the various markings, hard to position, but better now.
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"think you have completely missed one of the most important and appreciated ..."
bimmerlover-
Actually, I'm an LP disciple/bin diver/original press weirdo.
I just make fun of my own obsession with the entire process.
Currently enjoying a STRONG cup of coffee, listening to Ludwig V's
9th- RCA Living Stereo 1959
Boston Symphony/Munch
Carpe Diem!
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Impractical, don’t kid yourself, it’s a problem needing solution. Expensive TT’s (any TT) without a dust cover is an incomplete solution, an abomination, they should be ashamed of themselves.
I go for dust minimization and dust barrier, uncover to play. My forced air supply vent (end of the run) at that end is blocked, the return air vent on the far wall somehow pulls enough for comfort all seasons.
You’ve caught a glimpse of dust in sun beams. It is pure folly to think invisible contaminants are not gathering and accumulating on all possible surfaces of your very finely manufactured stylus, cantilever, arm pivots, bearings, TT: anything left open to the air. At least a cloth cover when not in use.
Hinged, playing while closed: as I said, even if I cannot hear/prove it, I cannot get the concept of reflected microphonics out of my mind, so prior TT, I left it up/open (level the TT when weight is shifted thusly) or don’t attach the hinges, lift it off.
Vibrations in the space from the speakers reaching the surface of the LP? I cannot sense any movement getting involved? If I had my rear ports open, that would be an issue, but they are sealed since I moved to this space 46 years ago. The speaker's tops are slanted and delicate things do not vibrate/move, things in front/sides all have a combo of felt feet/no touch each other rule and all artwork corners have tak at the corners. I get many opportunities to see dust movement in variously directed sun beams, my TT is in front 3 windows facing south and one from right side catching late afternoon/sunset rays. Speakers Off/on, the dust in the rays does not reveal change of air movement in the TT's vicinity. The only clue I have.
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It's obvious, to me, that this Chief Engineer of Thorens, at that time, was doing nothing other than damage control, to cover up a significant engineering design fault. If the tolerances between the platter, record and TT dustcover were so tight so as to not allow for an extremely miniscule variation in the diameter of a spinning record with dust cover down (e.g. micron? micrometer?) because a record's hole might not be perfectly on center, that is an engineering design flaw. Surely, a company like Thorens and TT engineers, in general, should have accounted for record pressing & manufacturing flaws, especially in the 60s & 70s! I wonder how much longer that Chief Engineer worked for Thorens after that fiasco!
As for playing records with the TT dustcover off, since the late 50s & early 60s, to date, even though I have lived in relatively "dust-free" environments, so to speak, I have always played records with the dustcover on and in the down position and never noticed any deleterious sound quality consequences, as a result, even at high decibel levels. Of course, this presumes quality components and good system set-up. Unless you have your audio system set-up in a scientific research or industrial production cleanroom, there is always dust & dust motes in the air. I suppose using a good HEPA equipped air cleaner near your TT might make sense but only if it's a very, very quiet unit. I'm considering using one (i.e. HEPA equipped air cleaner) in my record cleaning system.
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The ELP is not immune to dust, IIRC. TJ, if you want to come over and digitize my 3000 LPs, you’re welcome if you bring the necessary gear.
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"Convert all your LP'S into files- they will sound exactly like the LP."
Now here is an honest man's assessment of the state of his hearing! Both of my turntables still out perform files to my aging ears, although the gap is definitely narrowing. I also have to admit that the latest Redbook CD is sounding remarkably good. I have been listening to a lot of those lately comparing two CD players, my long standing Luxman D-10X against a freshly acquired Marantz SA10 slated for our second home, but for now both residing under one roof. Anyway in the FWIW department I remove the dust cover on my SL1200 GAE when playing records, but out of sheer laziness lift it and leave open on the hinges on my HW40. But I believe lewm has the right approach.
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@tablejockey I think you have completely missed one of the most important and appreciated aspects of playing vinyl records, and that is the visual, tactile, organic and emotional aspect of handling physical media. Beautiful album and gatefold design, liner notes, lyrics, …
To walk over to your shelf with records, peruse by flipping through the bins or shelves, and pull out something to play that strikes you right then and there.
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No cover on/off or dust issues
https://www.elpj.com/
Similar to that thing introduced in the mid 80's with little silver discs.
I like Dekays suggestion - cone of silence actually could be answer to many of life concerns.
Convert all your LP'S into files- they will sound exactly like the LP.
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I have always removed the acrylic dust covers from my turntables when listening to them.
On an aside regarding actual dust covers for all types of audio gear, I have several inexpensive vinyl dust covers for the audio gear I use regularly. However, I keep most of my audio gear wrapped in plastic wrap (the stuff you use for sandwiches and such - I use a product called stretch tite). It’s dirt cheap to use and when you’re ready to use a piece of high end gear you just toss it and use a new piece of plastic wrap to reseal the piece of equipment when you’re through using it. I’ve been storing audio gear like this for years, and because you can choose the size of the plastic wrap, it’s also useful for covering odd sized highend gear like some turntables.
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