Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Just a reminder that the ASR review of the Mini Lore was originally pretty much a nothing burger.  The speaker was OK in ASR's opinion but nothing special.  The review was done last October (2023) and then sat dormant for months.  Things only went south when Eric at Tekton showed up months after the fact (Feb '24) and reopened the thread, accusing them of false data and threatened to sue because he apparently only expects glowing reviews.

The ASR crowd was probably never much of a market for his speakers, and as we can see here, lots of people are not very impressed with the way ASR does reviews.

The smart thing for Tekton to do would have been to wear the review as a badge of honor instead of threatening people. 

In other words, this fracas is a self-inflicted wound for Tekton.

Data makes for a great starting point

but it’s one’s ears which subjectively connects to the heart/preference that is unique for each individual.  Seems foolish to think measurements are all that matters, then again there seems there are those who like to live in denial vs maybe facing the truth that better sonics often is costly in this niche hobby 

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I view ASR as analogous to putting wine through an analyzer and rating it based on the results.  Humans and machines just don't perceive sound the same way.  

Data makes for a great starting point.  Ears and years take over from there. 😎

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If the conclusion is $1k speakers are all different and I get to choose the ones I think are best for whatever reason I choose, then I think I must agree. I feel so much better now! 😌

But please do  let me know when it is finally determined without a question of doubt which ones are in fact best. I might, just might, be forced to change my mind. 😱

 

 

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But I agree regarding the culture over at ASR and Amir. He came into the Roon forum to debate Michal Jurewicz from Mytek. Some of the other members became involved and Amir was quite arrogant and condescending. Some of the more fanatical ASR folks won’t leave any room for whatever sound someone likes

As for ASR, it’s a data point, but I’ve found it difficult to digest the toxic culture over there that Amir low key promotes. He’s the Mark Zuckerberg of audio forums - may be intelligent, but socially inept, deflects when challenged, and lacks self-awareness and accountability.

At some point (turning back the clock), i recall that he got banned from every forum i know of. When ya talked to him in person, one could draw some parallels between him and the type of piece that gets fired quickly at any workplace...

What else can you do...but start your own forum?! 😏

 

 

Oh G-d so tired of Tekton already. Take it or leave it. Same with ASR. I think ASR provides a valuable service. No more perfect than anyone else perhaps but still very valuable.  

There's a place for measurements. 

But I agree regarding the culture over at ASR and Amir.  He came into the Roon forum to debate Michal Jurewicz from Mytek.  Some of the other members became involved and Amir was quite arrogant and condescending. Some of the more fanatical ASR folks won't leave any room for whatever sound someone likes. 

@erik_squires I appreciate your perspective. I think we share a respect for the data as we pursue the perfect sound.

Disappointing that the thread on emotional response to tekton went on and on and your thread on the data behind the drama was immediately met with snores.

Keep up the good work.

Jerry

PS the reason that so much effort is put into insexpensive speakers might be that these reviewers have very limited access to more expensive speakers. And I’m sure a more expensive speaker sent for review comes with quite a list of conditions.  NOBODY is going to send an expensive speaker to ASR.

Great write-up, Erik. I found the following especially thoughtful.

The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
 

As for ASR, it’s a data point, but I’ve found it difficult to digest the toxic culture over there that Amir low key promotes. He’s the Mark Zuckerberg of audio forums - may be intelligent, but socially inept, deflects when challenged, and lacks self-awareness and accountability. 

ASR encourages people to listen to measurements, not the actual product being measured.

I've seen enough of their schtick to last me a lifetime.