So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
Bob Smith and y’all need to go back to school. Not much point in refuting as half of ya will get it, and the other half will scream blue murder. Just say Bob Smith should stick to commenting on Dagogo. The audience there won’t know enough to make fun of him
So let me get this straight, the choice is listen to Bob, who is a really nice guy and actually knows stuff, or listen to you. Now this may come as a complete shock to you and all your legions of fans here, but I’m going with Bob, the really nice guy who actually knows stuff.
And btw, I kinda know a guy whose father may have recently got a Nobel Prize in Physics, so there is that there too ...like just covering all the bases eh.
One may note that nowhere in the above is reason allied with the blind faith in theory that has not incorporated within in its framework all available observations...in fact quite the opposite...one of the functions of reason is to extend comprehension thru new observations and understandings.
And btw never realized Luther was an audiophile...though did know he prized music highly so it does make sense he was....learn new stuff everyday eh....thank you....do you think he was an analog or digital guy ?...
Edit....that quote-ish thingee you used basically says that Luther, a man of faith, should be considered an enemy of reason....so that got me thinking like what exactly was your point ?.....thought originally it was along the lines of the battle btwn theory and belief beyond existing theory that has been waged in the cable world for centuries....but maybe not....colour me confused.
Wow, the OP is trying to erase history. Sorry fella, it doesn't work that way. You're gonna make yourself persona non grata soon enough and then what will you do? This will follow you to any thread you go to.
The trouble with you, snratio is that you just can't stand to have anyone disagree with you and you have to win at any cost. You were never here to discuss audio: you were here to convert. You've come back in many different guises after being repeatedly taken down.
What started out as a feigned difference in opinion on audio turned quickly into a need to dominate this site with your nonsense. It's all you care about and all you do now is simply troll at every opportunity.
Do you think you're extracting some kind of revenge? You're more of a nuisance as you whack-a-mole yourself from thread to thread. Enjoy the journey. Is your guru disappointed in you?
Bob Smith and y'all need to go back to school. Not much point in refuting as half of ya will get it, and the other half will scream blue murder. Just say Bob Smith should stick to commenting on Dagogo. The audience there won't know enough to make fun of him.
I’ve got a revelation for the screamers that want graphs and science to prove it all for them without their participation. Technical information is a great start, but in the end, how about you methodically switch your cabling directions and listen to a top shelf recording you are very familiar that not only has exceptional left to right soundstage, but also front to back? Change your cabling around and let your ears and your visceral senses fully engage. Do this several times over an extended period when you are in various frames of mind. Hell, have someone else change the cabling around for you (or not do it all at times to keep you honest) and keep a log of how it sounds compared to previous listening. I find listening in pitch darkness works the best, but that’s me. Easily achieved by simply closing your eyes. I think you’ll find graphs of readings on a test bench really aren’t as important in the end. The experience of great music washing over you is all that matters. Anyone that buys all of their components solely based on how they look on a pretty graph are missing what is most important. Trust your ears and your other senses. If this doesn’t work for you best to pick a different hobby. You’ll find too much anger and frustration here and will spend too much time lashing out at others trying to beat them into a corner instead of finding the joy that comes from sonic bliss.
"Noteworthy in the above is the fact that the Capacitance doubles and the upper Cutoff Frequency (where above which the signal begins to be attenuated) almost doubles. So in the event that we “double-up” our audio cables, we actually extend their bandwidth – albeit we are talking in the region of radio frequencies so there is no real benefit there with respect to extending the fundamental audio bandwidth.
What IS significant though is the fact that all of the above leads to a potential reduction in reflected energy and/or standing waves within the cable, and that is because of two primary factors. By lowering the Character Impedance and consequently, raising the Cutoff Frequency, we “push” or force any potential reflections up to twice the frequency at which they would otherwise occur. That then leads to two other outcomes. First, higher frequencies find it more difficult to propagate down the length of any conductor due to the “skin effect,” and are therefore usually attenuated more with respect to those that occur at lower frequencies. As a result, lower magnitude levels of reflected energy translates into less interaction with the Source and Load circuits. That means less potential for the formation of any associated Phase Distortion artifacts as outlined above.
Second, any modulation effects that do arise will be shifted up to higher frequencies right along with their higher “carrier” (the frequency of the reflected signal), thereby making them less detectable to human hearing.
In all the above, the only potential negative concern might be the increased Capacitance, as theoretically that “could” cause a roll off of the highest frequencies in the region around 20KHz. In most cases though where there is reasonable output capability of the Source’s output stage, this should seldom – if ever – be a problem.
In summery, doubling cables as in the Schroeder Method seems to be a viable technique in an effort to create a “composite” cable the exhibits higher bandwidth, and hence less and/or potentially fewer forms of Inter-modulation Distortion. Thus, it only makes sense that listeners would observe an improvement in the resulting sound of their systems by implementing it."
A reasonably close analogy would be reducing the room generated noise thru acoustic treatment to produce a lower noise floor.
That's a great question. Air is the medium that carries sound waves in a
listening room...unless your listening under water...where sounds waves
travel faster. Notice how sound is different on a hot clear day vs.
humid day vs. cold, cloudy, or especially foggy day?
Would it
make sense that the changes in atmospheric conditions in a room would
have an influence of soundwave transmission? No medium...no sound. Sound
travels through different mediums at different speeds. That's something
you can find with a Google search.
All that is patently obvious....the question was about "how much air is in the room" and exactly what effect there is when it changes and how that kind of change would occur "at any given moment" ( which implies a change over a very short time-frame ). Cheers
It is clear by now our “friend” Edgewood’s post here is not about the directionality of the cables. It’s about cables in general. That “snake oil”. Question for you: what is your audio system? Can you post it under “systems” here? Thanks
Since we're only concerned about the bandwidth audible to humans and runs of cable in feet not miles we don't need to worry about skin effect. Nothing posted on this thread supports or explains why copper wire has a different sound depending on direction.
Show me your evidence. Don’t tell me. I have friend that’s a PhD in physics. Experts in science require evidence. So far, you’ve provided none to the discussion.
It is already explicit to the data or points shared in the post you answered. Their fundamental and published points in physics and the associated gleaned data in the academic texts says it all, quite clearly.
It is accepted, published and taught information at the basic levels of the physics of conductivity and how that works with transmission lines.
This illustrates that you don’t even know the nature of the questions you are asking, or know the practices, intelligence, capacities, or the integrity of the people and industries you are accusing of being in error. I’m not saying that you can’t learn but you are headed down that road, in a fairly public fashion ---if you continue on the same path. Wanna share your name? My name is Ken Hotte. It is a known name and a known face. How about sharing your own? Got something to hide?Or not?
Since it is " at any given moment" we can rule out altitude issues. Then we have to assume that air pressure changes over a given moment are at play and that would require air movement. So, any thoughts about how the direction of the air flow would affect the sound ? ( you know, as it moves in and out of the room ).
Cheers
That's a great question. Air is the medium that carries sound waves in a listening room...unless your listening under water...where sounds waves travel faster. Notice how sound is different on a hot clear day vs. humid day vs. cold, cloudy, or especially foggy day?
Would it make sense that the changes in atmospheric conditions in a room would have an influence of soundwave transmission? No medium...no sound. Sound travels through different mediums at different speeds. That's something you can find with a Google search.
oldhvymec2,960 posts05-27-2021 2:41pmOP if your version of "Frat boy" is a LOT of us agree cables sound different, you’re right. If you install them one way and there are NO ARROWS and then install it the other way and DO or DON’T hear a difference, what camp does that put someone in?
Like a few poster here believe in bundles of cables, others mix and match, others zip cord.
I don’t think there are TWO camps, I think there are several different ideas, and not all will pass scrutiny. The neat part is it (how it sounds or doesn’t) can be ignored by ME or YOU. Still doesn’t change the fact someone has a better sounding system even though you or I can’t hear the difference that others can.
When two people have the exact same boxes, ALL the same. The room, the preamp, the amp, the speaker boxes, EVERYTHING is the same and the only difference is cabling.. That is an eye opener. That is what changed my mind 40 years ago on "different", cables sound different ways..
I truly think the biggest issue is not direction (I thought that was figured out 30 years ago) per say but SIZE. Bigger is not better, but it sure will do damage because of WEIGHT and size..
I’ve seen more than a few systems sound BAD behind BIG PC and oversized speaker ICs. Direction is a bonus and pays dividends in the construction of cables right on down to how you coil up a cable when IN use or NOT.
I suppose static discharge/drop and flop cabling sounds as good a carefully routed, pre coiled, pre conditioned, terminal end treated (with contact enhancer) cabling..
I really thought "Cable Direction" was a 30 year OLD topic.
Are there 20K speaker cables? Only if someone else pays for them.. Not ME..
I just looked at a 15K piece of stained glass that someone else commissioned to be made.. NOT ME!! I'm a 300.00 kind of guy and get out the soldering iron and glass cutter.. :-)
Amazing!
I've recently seen speaker cables advertised from a manufacturer that are $30K for an 8 foot pair.
The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.
uh, sorry to inform you but intermixing harmonics and their result in how they are handled at the ear, deals with an expression in ultrahigh frequencies across a basically dc to light speed kind of frequency response requirement, in audio cables. audio cables are easily seen and explained as the most complex signals that are dealt with in the world of electronics and signal transfer. easily. I’ll say it again. Easily.
When this was explained to a person who works at the peak of telecommunications industry and deals with the physics of various forms of transmission, they ended up agreeing. This is a person, btw..that basically has their masters in the physics of signal transmission. So, please, get a grip. Go talk to an expert if you can’t figure it out. Get educated.
Show me your evidence. Don’t tell me. I have friend that’s a PhD in physics. Experts in science require evidence. So far, you’ve provided none to the discussion.
The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.
uh, sorry to inform you but intermixing harmonics and their result in how they are handled at the ear, deals with an expression in ultrahigh frequencies and down to the bottom. Basically dc to light speed kind of frequency response requirement, in audio cables. with zero problems in any area and zero preload (or load of the microsecond moment in play) interference in any slew up or slew down of any kind of complex load.
audio cables are easily seen and explained as the most complex signals that are dealt with in the world of electronics and signal transfer. easily. I’ll say it again. Easily.
When this was explained to a person who works at the peak of telecommunications industry and deals with the physics of various forms of transmission, they ended up agreeing. This is a person, btw..that basically has their masters in the physics of signal transmission.
Audio covers more octaves than ANY other kind of signal and it does it right from DC and on up. It is a hellaciously complex and wideband signal. It is the only one that has such extreme range, and it continually goes through the skin effect region in all of it’s complexities, overall. The interactions with the dynamic aspects of the impedance and the entire reactive and interactive aspects of the fundamental physics of a transmission line, are off the scale, compared to all other signals.
Audio is the ultimate stress test of an electrically based transmission line.
So, please, get a grip. Go talk to an expert if you can’t figure it out. Get educated.
OP if your version of "Frat boy" is a LOT of us agree cables sound different, you’re right. If you install them one way and there are NO ARROWS and then install it the other way and DO or DON’T hear a difference, what camp does that put someone in?
Like a few poster here believe in bundles of cables, others mix and match, others zip cord.
I don’t think there are TWO camps, I think there are several different ideas, and not all will pass scrutiny. The neat part is it (how it sounds or doesn’t) can be ignored by ME or YOU. Still doesn’t change the fact someone has a better sounding system even though you or I can’t hear the difference that others can.
When two people have the exact same boxes, ALL the same. The room, the preamp, the amp, the speaker boxes, EVERYTHING is the same and the only difference is cabling.. That is an eye opener. That is what changed my mind 40 years ago on "different", cables sound different ways..
I truly think the biggest issue is not direction (I thought that was figured out 30 years ago) per say but SIZE. Bigger is not better, but it sure will do damage because of WEIGHT and size..
I’ve seen more than a few systems sound BAD behind BIG PC and oversized speaker ICs. Direction is a bonus and pays dividends in the construction of cables right on down to how you coil up a cable when IN use or NOT.
I suppose static discharge/drop and flop cabling sounds as good a carefully routed, pre coiled, pre conditioned, terminal end treated (with contact enhancer) cabling..
I really thought "Cable Direction" was a 30 year OLD topic.
Are there 20K speaker cables? Only if someone else pays for them.. Not ME..
I just looked at a 15K piece of stained glass that someone else commissioned to be made.. NOT ME!! I'm a 300.00 kind of guy and get out the soldering iron and glass cutter.. :-)
Since it is " at any given moment" we can rule out altitude issues. Then we have to assume that air pressure changes over a given moment are at play and that would require air movement. So, any thoughts about how the direction of the air flow would affect the sound ? ( you know, as it moves in and out of the room ).
Why would I want to silence those I disagree with?...and vice versa? Discussions are supposed to be an exchange of ideas.
The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.
I don’t care what you spend your money on, I simply want manufacturers to prove their claims are a physical attribute and not psychological. Speaker systems and amplifiers can change their sound daily based on ambient temperature, humidity, and how much air is in a room at any given moment. Ears also change response based on how long one has been listening and at what SPL. Show me where a cable... an esoteric cable manufacturer discloses these things.
BTW...thanks for the "Report" tip. I’ve seen it before but failed to remember about the cursor.
Why do some retorts always fall back on the costs of uber expensive cables when it's not brought up to begin with? That belies a lot angst on the part of some.
As for the "report button" alluded to, it doesn't disappear. Just move your cursor over to where it resides (lower right hand corner) and it will appear, like Tinker Bell, and pressing it will reward you with untold powers to silence those you disagree with.
clearthink1,233 posts05-27-2021 1:53pm edgewound"No cable is worth $10,000."
What you fail to recognize, understand, and comprehend is that for some people $10,000 USD would be not a lot of money it would be an expense they could easily absorb that may be difficult for you to accept if you are watching your dad work two jobs just to pay the rent but for some others it would not be a big deal and you can not say it is not worth it to them you can only say it is not worth it to you. If your father or parent(s) guardians are struggling to meet family expenses which is what it sounds like it is of course hard for you to understand why some others could or would spend that kind of money for cables.
Without meaning to be rude, impolite, or disrespectful to you if cables such as this bother you another group might be better ask your dad to help you find one. In the US Scouting is a very popular activity for youth and it might be good for you too!
I recognize everything about you, just from this post. Alan Parsons wrote a song exactly about you. Be very careful...Karma is watching.
What you fail to recognize, understand, and comprehend is that for some people $10,000 USD would be not a lot of money it would be an expense they could easily absorb that may be difficult for you to accept if you are watching your dad work two jobs just to pay the rent but for some others it would not be a big deal and you can not say it is not worth it to them you can only say it is not worth it to you. If your father or parent(s) guardians are struggling to meet family expenses which is what it sounds like it is of course hard for you to understand why some others could or would spend that kind of money for cables.
Without meaning to be rude, impolite, or disrespectful to you if cables such as this bother you another group might be better ask your dad to help you find one. In the US Scouting is a very popular activity for youth and it might be good for you too!
It's a frat boy thing around here. Groupthink. BTW...I'm not the only one around here that is a skeptic of uber expensive cables. I have said there are good cables and bad cables. No cable is worth $10,000. No cable is worth four figures for a few feet. If that's what you wanna spend on cables, knock yourself out.
And...I didn't remove my own post...some snowflake did...and the Report button has gone missing from mine....and your paranoia that I will show up under another moniker is pretty funny.
We all have the ability to remove our own post OP. It's not the mods it's self deletion.. If not, someone learned what the "Report" button was. It's not what's it's for but.. Some think it's right to silence other.
You know just like you.. You think you have all the answers.. Reality just a Johnny come lately trying to get a rise.. You'll be gone soon enough.
You'll get back on your meds and all will be well again for you, until. the cable conspirators show up in your HEAD again..
If you don't know your right from your left or in this case UP from DOWN, you'll learn.. nature will teach you..
I refer to simple logic, LOOK at the bare WIRE.
Get a microscope and LOOK at the cable.. Tell me there is not a direction and how it was put through a dye.. Your asking if it's directional?
How was it made? From the beginning or the END? YOU answer the question?
The question for many, does it SOUND different? Some cable a lot more so than others..
We had a few poster here say they would sneak this "FUSE" in and swap direction on their buddies cables and SEE if they could tell the difference..
ALL LIES.. No one would let anyone mess with their system.. NO ONE..
Especially someone with high dollar cabling or equipment. Total BS..
So OP.. welcome to AG.. for how ever long that last..
Care to speculate on that?
We need to start a Lottery.. See how long you last before a retreat and then a NEW resurrection with a whole new name..
boxer126,510 posts05-25-2021 5:10pmedgewhatever, As stated in the first word of my post... My very cordial & friendly response was to Jerry (the fake physicist), not you.
Your "cordial and friendly" response to Jerry (the fake physicist) is evidence that you don't even understand the premise on my OP. Your explanation was inaccurate to the subject matter. Many posters on this thread didn't bother to comprehend the entire premise, and steered the subject to floating, single ended shields. Some don't even understand how that's done in practice....but mansplain what they don't know anyway....like you do.
Why should anyone explain anything to you? You havent earned the right. What good would it do!
carlsbad,
I always heard that the directionality of a passive cable is due to the direction it comes off the spool. Not saying I agree with this, but just saying.
I've earned plenty. Your frat boy mentality and demeanor is pretty entertaining, though.
Your second statement, here, is evidence that you're not in agreement with cable directionality.
When is someone's dad gonna chime in and yell, knock it off already. So tired of all the engineers, experts, physicists, and wanna be gurus. Where's dad when you need him?
Physicist here, late to the party. For those of you married to the idea that cables are directional, please explain to me how a cable is manufactured to be directional. In other words, what does the manufacturer do to impart the directionality into the cable?
I’ll wait.
--Jerry
well, first a physicist would inquire about the ’observation’, and if after much thinking and much assessment..... that if the observation cannot be dismissed, then look into why a cable might be heard as being directional.
To go after the observation alone (if one decided to do so) as the equation (equation = the observation awaiting an answer) does not seem to have a easy answer.... is to have one’s physics pants on backward.
If you are indeed the physicist, then you figure it out.
If the physicist decides to delete the observation that has literally been heard a million times or more, well that would not be science. That would a mis-trained physicist. Someone not worthy of the degree. Or someone pretending to be one on a forum.
To ask us to prove a complex question/answer set... is to ask us to do the job that a physicist is possibly more well equipped to do. Or should be. If not (not properly trained or not doing this correctly).....possibly even attempting to move the equation out of the science realm...and subtly cast it as emotional-political, all while pretending to be science.
It’s ok, I’ll wait.
OK, changed my mind. I won't wait: A real and actual physicist would never have said what was in the post I quoted. not going to happen. If it did, then the physicist very likely needs to be reprimanded or stripped of their papers.
Why should anyone explain anything to you? You havent earned the right. What good would it do!
carlsbad,
I always heard that the directionality of a passive cable is due to the direction it comes off the spool. Not saying I agree with this, but just saying.
So if they are marked with arrow, you are going to install then backwards? Not me, I'll install based on the arrows and be happy. Whether I hear it or not, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. 😜
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